Proposition 8

[swede]

I've always thought civil unions were a decent compromise and never understood the desperate psychological need for gay marriage.

I tried the "sanctity of marriage" argument for a while, but after Carmen Electra and Dennis Rodman tied the knot I couldn't see how Bruce marrying Tyrone was somehow any less degrading to the institution.

I don't know about the slippery slope argument. Are children, pets, household objects or the UW Marching Band on the "I should be allowed to marry who or what I want" radar?

[SkinBasket]

I think it will be far more troubling when I have to explain to my young children what is wrong with those two men walking down the street holding hands...

Please think before you speak.

Let me trouble you now then to explain to me what is wrong with two men walking down the street holding hands.

It's gross. You gays can just keep your gayness to the gay approved areas, like gay bars and horse shows.

First off, I am not gay. Secondly, "It's gross" is a personal opinion and shouldn't be forced on everyone. Not everyone believes as you do, nor do they have to. Your opinion is no better or more important than thiers.

Besides, it's only gross if you pay attention to it. Even if you feel that way, you can just look at something else.

First off, congratulations on being normal. Secondly, that is my opinion, and just as it should not be forced on anyone, which it isn't, it also shouldn't be stifled out of fear of appearing like a homohater. My opinion is not any better or more important. It is also no worse or less important.

Re: the bold. So you admit it's gross. But it's not gross because they're gay, it's gross because it's two guys holding hands. Even if it was two straight guys holding hands, it would be gross.

[mraynrand]

Your opinion is no better or more important than thiers.

Are all opinions identical - no better or worse than any other? If an opinion is better than another, how do we know? Who decides?

Nobody decides for everybody, that is the point I'm making. Everyone decides for themselves. Perhaps I worded it wrong... Your opinion is no better or more important to them than theirs is to you. Make more sense?

Yes

[Gunakor]

I think it will be far more troubling when I have to explain to my young children what is wrong with those two men walking down the street holding hands...

Please think before you speak.

Let me trouble you now then to explain to me what is wrong with two men walking down the street holding hands.

It's gross. You gays can just keep your gayness to the gay approved areas, like gay bars and horse shows.

First off, I am not gay. Secondly, "It's gross" is a personal opinion and shouldn't be forced on everyone. Not everyone believes as you do, nor do they have to. Your opinion is no better or more important than thiers.

Besides, it's only gross if you pay attention to it. Even if you feel that way, you can just look at something else.

First off, congratulations on being normal. Secondly, that is my opinion, and just as it should not be forced on anyone, which it isn't, it also shouldn't be stifled out of fear of appearing like a homohater. My opinion is not any better or more important. It is also no worse or less important.

Re: the bold. So you admit it's gross. But it's not gross because they're gay, it's gross because it's two guys holding hands. Even if it was two straight guys holding hands, it would be gross.

I'm not encouraging anyone to stifle your opinion either. But laws that apply to everyone shouldn't be made out of personal opinions. The question is whether or not gay marriage should be allowed by law. If you think it's gross, you are entitled to that opinion but you shouldn't expect the government to pass a law saying such unions are illegal just because some people think it's gross. Just the same, I respect your opinion and your right to have it even though I disagree. As far as the law is concerned, this should be a non issue because there is nothing about it that would warrant a legal ban. "I think it's gross" is not legal justification for an outright ban. Wouldn't you agree?

[swede]

First off, I am not gay. Secondly, "It's gross" is a personal opinion and shouldn't be forced on everyone. Not everyone believes as you do, nor do they have to. Your opinion is no better or more important than thiers.

A common fallacy is for people to believe that opinions are of equal value.

It IS true that everyone has the right to hold an opinion; its value depends upon whether or not the opinion can be rationally defended.

AND btw I think the right to gay marriage can be rationally defended, but only if we are negotiating differences between a civil union and the legal status of holy matrimony.

[Fosco33]

Similar prop passed 8 years ago.

SF mayor and CA supreme court went against the spoken will of the majority.

Prop 8 passes again - despite near record low turnout in Orange County (very right of center).

If gay rights activists wanted change, they should propose their own measure and not hide behind appeals, lawyers and judges that don't speak for the people.

(Note - I don't really care if/when it actually passes - it's more about the process of initiating change).

[Gunakor]

First off, I am not gay. Secondly, "It's gross" is a personal opinion and shouldn't be forced on everyone. Not everyone believes as you do, nor do they have to. Your opinion is no better or more important than thiers.

A common fallacy is for people to believe that opinions are of equal value.

It IS true that everyone has the right to hold an opinion; its value depends upon whether or not the opinion can be rationally defended.

AND btw I think the right to gay marriage can be rationally defended, but only if we are negotiating differences between a civil union and the legal status of holy matrimony.

But even in a civil union, I feel as if gay couples should be entitled to every legal benefit a traditional couple is entitled to. Because in my eyes anyway, I don't see a fundamental difference. It's two people who fall in love and want to get married. How is it any different if it's two men versus a man and a woman (from a legal perspective anyway, as I understand the fundamental differences from a religious perspective)? I guess I just don't understand why or how people think that two men who they don't even know or associate with getting married is going to negatively affect their own lives. Are your taxes going to go up because gays can get married? Is the value of your home going to decrease? Is your job in jeopardy? Your safety? When I posed my original question to Partial, this is what I was getting at.

[Partial]

I think it will be far more troubling when I have to explain to my young children what is wrong with those two men walking down the street holding hands...

Please think before you speak.

Why feel the need to explain anything? Why say it's wrong? Let them come to their own conclusions.
As to the notion of adoption. My kids have plenty of friends with two moms or two dads. We went to these kid's weddings (3 this summer) They had gay parents, they chose straight partners. They grew up in loving homes....the alternative could have been orphanages or foster homes.
On this particular issue, where there really is no bearing on anyone other than those directly involved, why should it bother you so much?

Then you have to say they're gay... they ask whats that... then you have the whole birds and the bees at an age far too young. No innocence left in children these days and the liberal media is to blame for it.

[Partial]

I agree, let them have a crack at "it," but calling "it" marriage doesn't fit the definition of marriage. Most queers I've known didn't want it called marriage either and you'll only be offending those who believe in the more religious aspects. Gays for the most part are clever. Let them come up with their own term. I'm sure it'll be fabulous.

[Zool]

No innocence left in children these days and the liberal media is to blame for it.

Well...you've once again said the stupidest thing I've read from you.

Kudos in your never ending quest.

[SkinBasket]

I think it will be far more troubling when I have to explain to my young children what is wrong with those two men walking down the street holding hands...

Please think before you speak.

Let me trouble you now then to explain to me what is wrong with two men walking down the street holding hands.

It's gross. You gays can just keep your gayness to the gay approved areas, like gay bars and horse shows.

First off, I am not gay. Secondly, "It's gross" is a personal opinion and shouldn't be forced on everyone. Not everyone believes as you do, nor do they have to. Your opinion is no better or more important than thiers.

Besides, it's only gross if you pay attention to it. Even if you feel that way, you can just look at something else.

First off, congratulations on being normal. Secondly, that is my opinion, and just as it should not be forced on anyone, which it isn't, it also shouldn't be stifled out of fear of appearing like a homohater. My opinion is not any better or more important. It is also no worse or less important.

Re: the bold. So you admit it's gross. But it's not gross because they're gay, it's gross because it's two guys holding hands. Even if it was two straight guys holding hands, it would be gross.

I'm not encouraging anyone to stifle your opinion either. But laws that apply to everyone shouldn't be made out of personal opinions. The question is whether or not gay marriage should be allowed by law. If you think it's gross, you are entitled to that opinion but you shouldn't expect the government to pass a law saying such unions are illegal just because some people think it's gross. Just the same, I respect your opinion and your right to have it even though I disagree. As far as the law is concerned, this should be a non issue because there is nothing about it that would warrant a legal ban. "I think it's gross" is not legal justification for an outright ban. Wouldn't you agree?

Who's talking about laws? We're talking about two doods holding hands and Partial feeling all homophobic about it. He's one of those guys that thinks all the gays are looking at him because they want him.

As far as the legal side goes, I've staked my position earlier in this thread.

[Partial]

Then you have to say they're gay... they ask whats that... then you have the whole birds and the bees at an age far too young. No innocence left in children these days and the liberal media is to blame for it.

Well...you've once again said the stupidest thing I've read from you.

Kudos in your never ending quest.

How so? You're telling me if you were with your daughter and she saw two fruit cakes holding hands and kissing eachother it wouldn't perplex her? She's probably say, "what are those guys doing daddy".

You'd say, "they're trying to defy genetics and do their own thing" or "they're gay".

She says... "whats gay, daddy".

You say ... "its when a man likes another man instead of girls"

daughter asks why, when all she sees are men married to women..

and so on and so forth.

Christ Zooly... That is dead on balls accurate, wheres the beef?

[SkinBasket]

Then you have to say they're gay... they ask whats that... then you have the whole birds and the bees at an age far too young. No innocence left in children these days and the liberal media is to blame for it.

Well...you've once again said the stupidest thing I've read from you.

Kudos in your never ending quest.

How so? You're telling me if you were with your daughter and she saw two fruit cakes holding hands and kissing eachother it wouldn't perplex her? She's probably say, "what are those guys doing daddy".

You'd say, "they're trying to defy genetics and do their own thing" or "they're gay".

She says... "whats gay, daddy".

You say ... "its when a man likes another man instead of girls"

daughter asks why, when all she sees are men married to women..

and so on and so forth.

Christ Zooly... That is dead on balls accurate, wheres the beef?

Partial, I've said it before and I'll say it again. DO. NOT. HAVE. KIDS.

They hate you already.

[Gunakor]

Who's talking about laws? We're talking about two doods holding hands and Partial feeling all homophobic about it. He's one of those guys that thinks all the gays are looking at him because they want him.

As far as the legal side goes, I've staked my position earlier in this thread.

The topic of this thread is a legal ban on gay marriage. I had just assumed that we were all talking about laws... My bad.

If Partial wants to be homophobic, that is his right. He just shouldn't expect the government to pass laws prohibiting gays from walking down the street holding hands. If he's got some problem with it, it's his own problem to deal with, not America's.

Besides, what pray tell do you think the gays are thinking when Partial can't simply look away from them holding hands as they walk down the street?

[Zool]

Then you have to say they're gay... they ask whats that... then you have the whole birds and the bees at an age far too young. No innocence left in children these days and the liberal media is to blame for it.

Well...you've once again said the stupidest thing I've read from you.

Kudos in your never ending quest.

How so? You're telling me if you were with your daughter and she saw two fruit cakes holding hands and kissing eachother it wouldn't perplex her? She's probably say, "what are those guys doing daddy".

You'd say, "they're trying to defy genetics and do their own thing" or "they're gay".

She says... "whats gay, daddy".

You say ... "its when a man likes another man instead of girls"

daughter asks why, when all she sees are men married to women..

and so on and so forth.

Christ Zooly... That is dead on balls accurate, wheres the beef?

How the fuck can you blame the media for anything? Turn off the TV. If the kids are watching too much TV, do we blame NBC or possibly their parents?

Think....type...think some more.....type some more....go for a walk...come back. If it still seems like a good post, push submit.