Who is a christian and what does that mean

[texaspackerbacker]

Those poor Japanese, Chinese, Africans, Persians, Jewish and Indians....All those billions of people with little opportunity to be saved.

This, like so much negativity about Biblical teachings, is rooted in falsehood. And the great majority of that falsehood is perpetuated by the mainstream Christian denominations.

As to this particular supposed inequity, Revelations Chapter 20 describes two separate resurrections: One at the time of the return of Christ--this one Christians only--those who believe in Christ, are baptized, and repent of their sins--to be co-rulers with Jesus in the Millenial Kingdom, and the other one--the so-called Day of Judgment--a thousand years later. In this Day of Judgment resurrection, everybody will be raised up--don't give me any crap about the logistics of that, and everyone will be judged according to their works, presumably giving all those good-hearted pagans a fighting chance at the prize.

And as for Tyrone's little bit of sarcasm about heaven being a place on earth--I thought that was in a New Kids on the Block song, but whatever, heaven i.e. the Kingdom of Heaven--which is the eternal reward promised both Christians and those judged worthy on the Day of Judgment--indeed, WILL BE ON EARTH. See Revelations Chapter 21--where it states that God the Father will dwell on Earth.

[MadScientist]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

[GK]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I have hunch that GK's logic is going to turn madscientist into a believer. will see in the next post.

[MadScientist]

I have hunch that GK's logic is going to turn madscientist into a believer. will see in the next post.

GK has logic? He should try to use it sometime.

[arcilite]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

[MadScientist]

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

We're even in our opinions of each other.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself.

What is undeniably delusional is your ideas of what I think. I can speak for myself just fine.If you just want a discussion between yourself and this straw man that you pretend is me, why bother posting here. (Of course that's the only way you have a chance).

Point of fact, I stopped believing in god when I realized that these ancient gods were created by primitive people to explain things they couldn't understand, or to try to control things that were beyond their ability to control. All evidence I have come across since then simply reaffirms my position. If the evidence had led otherwise, I would have followed it.

You say you believe in the Christian god, but why that one and not Ra, Zues, Vishnu, or that wacky shit the Scientologists believe in. And if you think that Scientology is wacky shit, why is it any wackier than what is in the bible (talking snakes, animal and human sacrifice, Jonah surviving after being swallowed by a giant fish, the holy ghost debauching a virgin babe, etc).

Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag.

Which one (no murder, no adultry, or "6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end." (Exodus 34). Silly Christians, can't even get their commandments straight.

[GK]

I have hunch that GK's logic is going to turn madscientist into a believer. will see in the next post.

GK has logic? He should try to use it sometime.

Ah, I see the "snarky ad hominem attack" approach continues to be the only retort of the atheist. I am not surprised.

As I have said before, there are two ways to approach this:

1) Thoughtful, rational inquiry (see Anthony Flew and C.S. Lewis), or
2) Smart aleck insults

Christians and Christian authors focus on the former - rational inquiry. Atheists, near as I can tell, focus on the latter. This dichotomy does not surprise me, because Christians can make a rational argument for their beliefs, and atheists cannot.

So far on this thread, you have proven my point. You are unable to make a rational defense of your belief (delusion) that there is no God. I am still waiting for you to move beyond smart aleck insults.

So, if the rules are that we exchange smart aleck insults, I am happy to comply. When I discuss philosophical concepts with my Christian colleagues, we general keep it at a very high level. Exchanging insults with atheists is much easier, and less taxing.

So, with that in mind, my response to you is: "MadScientist should try using logic sometime."

[GK]

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

We're even in our opinions of each other.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself.

What is undeniably delusional is your ideas of what I think. I can speak for myself just fine.If you just want a discussion between yourself and this straw man that you pretend is me, why bother posting here. (Of course that's the only way you have a chance).

Point of fact, I stopped believing in god when I realized that these ancient gods were created by primitive people to explain things they couldn't understand, or to try to control things that were beyond their ability to control. All evidence I have come across since then simply reaffirms my position. If the evidence had led otherwise, I would have followed it.

You say you believe in the Christian god, but why that one and not Ra, Zues, Vishnu, or that wacky shit the Scientologists believe in. And if you think that Scientology is wacky shit, why is it any wackier than what is in the bible (talking snakes, animal and human sacrifice, Jonah surviving after being swallowed by a giant fish, the holy ghost debauching a virgin babe, etc).

Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag.

Which one (no murder, no adultry, or "6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end." (Exodus 34). Silly Christians, can't even get their commandments straight.

See my previous post. The ad hominem attacks continue. That is fine. If you would like, I can help you make some arguments against Christianity. Would you like me to do that?

Nah, I'm too tired. If you cannot come up with an argument, I am not going to help you. So I'll just continue in the "insult" mode with you.

You think Ra and Zeus have the same theological underpinnings as Christianity? Are you a moron? Do you even know anything about the beliefs regarding any of them? Obviously you do not, because if you did, you would not have made such a foolish statement.

Your comments about specific aspects of the Bible? Do you know anything about them? Of course you don't, or wouldn't have said something so ignorant.

I'll start with a very simple concept, and hopefully you can follow it. I have a lot of books in my library that refer to "The Emerald Isle" that can be found in the North Atlantic. These books go on about this emerald island that is surrounded by beautiful crystal waters. Now, if I were MadScientist I would throw these books away and laugh at any fool who would try to go to this fantasy place called "Ireland," which is described as an "emerald island" surrounded by "crystal water."

But wait. Uh oh. Do you mean that the writing was metaphorical? Noooooooo! That is not possible. There is no such thing as metaphorical writing. If Fodor's calls Ireland an "Emerald Isle" that means that everything written by Fodor's is false, and anybody who tries to go to Ireland is an idiot.

Sorry, I tried to engage in "non insult" mode. I know that is not what we are doing here. I'll try to stick with insults.

[GK]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

Yes. People who do not believe in God believe in a fantasy.

There is a wonderful fantasy that satisfies every one of man's desires - no rules, no reason to sacrifice, no need to be courageous, and no need to be patient. And most importantly, no judgement. No judgement whatsoever. We are alone, and we are the product of nothing. For the seventy or so years we are here, just live it up as much as you can, and then call it a day.

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).

It doesn't matter that such a world cannot defend morality without destroying the whole paradigm.

It doesn't matter that when these ideas have been applied in full force in the real world, the result has been tens of millions of murdered corpses.

It doesn't matter that the man (the secular prophet) who brought forth these ideas, Darwin, did so in the biological Dark Ages.

It doesn't matter that many of the other secular prophets of this new religious movement, like Stanley Miller, have been proven to be frauds.

And it definitely doesn't matter that your average defender of these beliefs is completely incapable of bringing forth an argument in favor of them. The defenders of this belief system rely entirely on insults.

So anyway, yeah, it's a fantasy.

[arcilite]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

Yes. People who do not believe in God believe in a fantasy.

There is a wonderful fantasy that satisfies every one of man's desires - no rules, no reason to sacrifice, no need to be courageous, and no need to be patient. And most importantly, no judgement. No judgement whatsoever. We are alone, and we are the product of nothing. For the seventy or so years we are here, just live it up as much as you can, and then call it a day.

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).

It doesn't matter that such a world cannot defend morality without destroying the whole paradigm.

It doesn't matter that when these ideas have been applied in full force in the real world, the result has been tens of millions of murdered corpses.

It doesn't matter that the man (the secular prophet) who brought forth these ideas, Darwin, did so in the biological Dark Ages.

It doesn't matter that many of the other secular prophets of this new religious movement, like Stanley Miller, have been proven to be frauds.

And it definitely doesn't matter that your average defender of these beliefs is completely incapable of bringing forth an argument in favor of them. The defenders of this belief system rely entirely on insults.

So anyway, yeah, it's a fantasy.

So people who believe in God(s)...they don't believe in a fantasy?

You are a confusing fellow.

[MJZiggy]

Think about how many people went to church on September 12, 2001.

And it did as much good as a little kid who waves a stick over dice pretending to cast a spell to get a Yahtzee. It allowed the people going to church to pretend they were doing something when then were not.

One minute you are a comfortable product of Western civilization who has no need for foolish old superstitions, and the the next you are a helpless, "desperate" human who is terrified just as your ancestors 5,000 years ago were. Which of the two situations is reality?

Reality is reality weather the situation is fine or desperate. A persons emotional state doesn't make reality more or less real.

Maybe I have made my point too subtly up to this point. So here it is, a little more bluntly - I think you live in a delusional fantasy world.

Reality is reality is reality, and you have constructed the delusion that there is no God in order to feel good about yourself. You are not unlike the person who believes that the Brewers won the World Series in 1982. Just because you really, really, really want there not to be a God, that does not mean it is so.

For whatever reason, you have decided to believe a fantasy that there is no God. Maybe you don't like the idea that you are not the center of the universe. Maybe you are so wide eyed about science that you think it is able to answer questions that it has not been designed to answer. Maybe you think that whole sixth commandment thing is a real drag. Maybe you have not been exposed to the great philosophers and literary geniuses of Western civilization, like Plato, Shakespeare, and Dostoyevsky. Maybe you think that in our American society of material comfort, where we enjoy a quality of life that less than 5% of the people in the history of the world have enjoyed, God does not seem to be necessary. Whatever the reason, you are delusional.

Your emotions make you want there not to be a God. As I like to say, reality is reality, whether the situation is fine or desperate. The sooner you let go of your delusions, the better off you are going to be.

In your delusional world, has anybody given you any "arguments" to make you feel better about your delusion? I would be interested to hear them.

Wait... the people who don't believe in God believe in a fantasy?

The Bible and all the stories about 'God' are a bunch of fairy tales... isn't that the fantasy?

Or am I misunderstanding you

Yes. People who do not believe in God believe in a fantasy.

There is a wonderful fantasy that satisfies every one of man's desires - no rules, no reason to sacrifice, no need to be courageous, and no need to be patient. And most importantly, no judgement. No judgement whatsoever. We are alone, and we are the product of nothing. For the seventy or so years we are here, just live it up as much as you can, and then call it a day.

Now, it doesn't matter that the math doesn't add up (the statistical probability of us being here by chance during the time the universe has been in existence - 14 billion years- is for all practical purposes, zero).

It doesn't matter that such a world cannot defend morality without destroying the whole paradigm.

It doesn't matter that when these ideas have been applied in full force in the real world, the result has been tens of millions of murdered corpses.

It doesn't matter that the man (the secular prophet) who brought forth these ideas, Darwin, did so in the biological Dark Ages.

It doesn't matter that many of the other secular prophets of this new religious movement, like Stanley Miller, have been proven to be frauds.

And it definitely doesn't matter that your average defender of these beliefs is completely incapable of bringing forth an argument in favor of them. The defenders of this belief system rely entirely on insults.

So anyway, yeah, it's a fantasy.

Don't discount ethics. There have been studies about ethics in the religious vs. nonreligious. I'm not going to look them up now (because I loaned that book to a friend) but I don't think you'd like what they say.

And you cannot say that only nonreligious people kill one another. More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason--Catholic vs. Protestant, Christian vs. Muslim, Muslim vs. Jew, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

[HowardRoark]

So people who believe in God(s)...they don't believe in a fantasy?

You are a confusing fellow.

Well, if nothing else, at least you are starting to get the point.

[MadScientist]

See my previous post. The ad hominem attacks continue.

Since you only stop the ad hominem attacks to throw out strawmen, your whines hold no weight.

Your comments about specific aspects of the Bible? Do you know anything about them?

Animal sacrifice was of great importance in the OT, and I rather thought the whole virgin birth/ son of god thing was considered as something other than a metaphor. If this has changed, then you're making progress. I did throw in the talking snakes and Jonah as window dressing, but there are no shortage in blind faith believers who take it as 'gospel truth'.

I have a lot of books in my library that refer to "The Emerald Isle" that can be found in the North Atlantic.

You treat the existence of Ireland as proof of the existence of leprechauns.

[MadScientist]

Christians and Christian authors focus on the former - rational inquiry. Atheists, near as I can tell, focus on the latter. This dichotomy does not surprise me, because Christians can make a rational argument for their beliefs, and atheists cannot.

Let's see, you started in on this thread that with a line of reasoning because Christianity thrives where people are desperate, that makes it real. When pointed out that this makes no sense, you call me and others delusional and living in a fantasy. (Real high level there).

My position is simply this, there is no evidence for the existence of a god, much less the existence of the Christian god, therefore there is no reason to believe in such a god.

Let's see your evidence.