Jesus Christ

[Tarlam!]

Maybe it is time mad. Time for the mods and their little BFF's to find solace elsewhere perhaps.

It's really too bad that you have decided to ruin this thread with your personal beef. It might not have occured to you, but serious posters are having a discussion. It would be very polite of you to no longer interfere.

[mraynrand]

Maybe it is time mad. Time for the mods and their little BFF's to find solace elsewhere perhaps.

It's really too bad that you have decided to ruin this thread with your personal beef. It might not have occured to you, but serious posters are having a discussion. It would be very polite of you to no longer interfere.

Either one of you could walk away at any time from your pissing match. And it isn't ruining the thread, as I - and I suspect others - can easily choose to read the posts we care to read and avoid your posts as well.

[texaspackerbacker]

Well said, aynrand. I tend to respect both of those guys, but both of them are getting kinda petty here.

Tyrone, we've had a couple of Muslims come out of the closet or the woodwork or whatever lately. I'm expecting anytime now for you to announce you're Jewish ....... Jewish AND black! What are you, the illegitimate son of Sammy Davis? That would make you Sammy Davis the 3rd.

This whole irrelevancy about the origin of the Golden Rule started when I pointed out that NOWADAYS--in the MODERN WORLD--the only reason there can be any expectation of the ethical behavior Ziggy was speaking of from others is the FACT that such a thing--commonly called the Golden Rule--is practiced in western civilized countries--Judeo-Christian influenced countries--OK, call it just Christian--Jews nowadays seem to be more into the old "eye for an eye" concept, which has a lot of merit too.

Our enemies--primarily Muslims--don't practice either. They practice gouging the eye, then running and hiding--kinda like the way leftists in this forum post, now that I think about it. There can be no expectation of ethical behavior or even rational behavior from an enemy like that.

You weren't able to dispute that rationally, so you diverted to the crap about the origin of it--typical of your testicularly challenged/intellectually challenged way of posting.

[mraynrand]

Well said, aynrand. I tend to respect both of those guys, but both of them are getting kinda petty here.

Tyrone, we've had a couple of Muslims come out of the closet or the woodwork or whatever lately. I'm expecting anytime now for you to announce you're Jewish ....... Jewish AND black! What are you, the illegitimate son of Sammy Davis? That would make you Sammy Davis the 3rd.

This whole irrelevancy about the origin of the Golden Rule started when I pointed out that NOWADAYS--in the MODERN WORLD--the only reason there can be any expectation of the ethical behavior Ziggy was speaking of from others is the FACT that such a thing--commonly called the Golden Rule--is practiced in western civilized countries--Judeo-Christian influenced countries--OK, call it just Christian--Jews nowadays seem to be more into the old "eye for an eye" concept, which has a lot of merit too.

Our enemies--primarily Muslims--don't practice either. They practice gouging the eye, then running and hiding--kinda like the way leftists in this forum post, now that I think about it. There can be no expectation of ethical behavior or even rational behavior from an enemy like that.

You weren't able to dispute that rationally, so you diverted to the crap about the origin of it--typical of your testicularly challenged/intellectually challenged way of posting.

Plus, you didn't say the Christian church was responsible for the idea, only that is was Church doctrine.

And there is a distinct difference in the Golden Rule as viewed from Christian versus secular/evolutionary perspectives. In the evolutionary/secular filter the Golden rule can only work as quid pro quo - treat others well so that they will treat you well. It enhances your survival - maybe it enhances theirs too, but ya gotta live right? You are making a survival bargain - treating others in a way that will prevent them from harming you and may enhance your status. The Christian version is sacrificial and a mandate: Do unto others (command) as you would have them do unto you. There is no guarantee of return here, only a guide for behaviour that may not enhance your survival, but will demonstrate your belief and is more Christ-like, which is what Christians should strive for (and unfortunately often fail at) all the time.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Our enemies--primarily Muslims--don't practice either. They practice gouging the eye, then running and hiding--kinda like the way leftists in this forum post, now that I think about it. There can be no expectation of ethical behavior or even rational behavior from an enemy like that.

"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

[texaspackerbacker]

Our enemies--primarily Muslims--don't practice either. They practice gouging the eye, then running and hiding--kinda like the way leftists in this forum post, now that I think about it. There can be no expectation of ethical behavior or even rational behavior from an enemy like that.

"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

I suppose that's from the Koran? How about what he wishes for his sister? Or maybe for the Jew who lives down the road?

Anyway, as I said in the last post, bring it back to the 21st century and what is practiced now--instead of diverting with stuff like this.

[MJZiggy]

Well said, aynrand. I tend to respect both of those guys, but both of them are getting kinda petty here.

Tyrone, we've had a couple of Muslims come out of the closet or the woodwork or whatever lately. I'm expecting anytime now for you to announce you're Jewish ....... Jewish AND black! What are you, the illegitimate son of Sammy Davis? That would make you Sammy Davis the 3rd.

This whole irrelevancy about the origin of the Golden Rule started when I pointed out that NOWADAYS--in the MODERN WORLD--the only reason there can be any expectation of the ethical behavior Ziggy was speaking of from others is the FACT that such a thing--commonly called the Golden Rule--is practiced in western civilized countries--Judeo-Christian influenced countries--OK, call it just Christian--Jews nowadays seem to be more into the old "eye for an eye" concept, which has a lot of merit too.

Our enemies--primarily Muslims--don't practice either. They practice gouging the eye, then running and hiding--kinda like the way leftists in this forum post, now that I think about it. There can be no expectation of ethical behavior or even rational behavior from an enemy like that.

You weren't able to dispute that rationally, so you diverted to the crap about the origin of it--typical of your testicularly challenged/intellectually challenged way of posting.

Plus, you didn't say the Christian church was responsible for the idea, only that is was Church doctrine.

And there is a distinct difference in the Golden Rule as viewed from Christian versus secular/evolutionary perspectives. In the evolutionary/secular filter the Golden rule can only work as quid pro quo - treat others well so that they will treat you well. It enhances your survival - maybe it enhances theirs too, but ya gotta live right? You are making a survival bargain - treating others in a way that will prevent them from harming you and may enhance your status. The Christian version is sacrificial and a mandate: Do unto others (command) as you would have them do unto you. There is no guarantee of return here, only a guide for behaviour that may not enhance your survival, but will demonstrate your belief and is more Christ-like, which is what Christians should strive for (and unfortunately often fail at) all the time.

That's not true in the least. I posted what it meant to me from a secular standpoint and this ain't it. The idea is very karmic in that no one wants to truly associate themselves with an asshole and you don't want to be an asshole, therefore don't act like one. Treat others (and that means all of them, Tex, not just the Christians) with the respect that you would have them show to you, regardless of whether they actually show it.

[packinpatland]

Well, that's another way of interpreting the 'Golden Rule'

[mraynrand]

The idea is very karmic in that no one wants to truly associate themselves with an asshole and you don't want to be an asshole, therefore don't act like one. Treat others (and that means all of them, Tex, not just the Christians) with the respect that you would have them show to you, regardless of whether they actually show it.

And why would you do these things?

[MJZiggy]

Because it's the proper way to treat people. They are human beings deserving of respect.

[mraynrand]

Because it's the proper way to treat people. They are human beings deserving of respect.

How do you know it is the proper way to treat people?

[MJZiggy]

Because it's the way I would want to be treated. Hence the rule--treat others as you would have them treat you. I would not wish to be harmed, therefore I do no harm others. When we read these stories about people who do grotesque things to children, why are we so shocked and offended? Because even without religion to tell us so, it is plain that the behavior is wrong. You don't REALLY need religion to tell you that abusing, raping and killing a child is wrong, do you? It goes against your basic human senses. It goes against human dignity and you feel it is wrong, because it is.

[Kiwon]

Because it's the way I would want to be treated. Hence the rule--treat others as you would have them treat you. I would not wish to be harmed, therefore I do no harm others. When we read these stories about people who do grotesque things to children, why are we so shocked and offended? Because even without religion to tell us so, it is plain that the behavior is wrong. You don't REALLY need religion to tell you that abusing, raping and killing a child is wrong, do you? It goes against your basic human senses. It goes against human dignity and you feel it is wrong, because it is.

And where does that innate knowledge of right and wrong come from?

[mraynrand]

Because it's the way I would want to be treated. Hence the rule--treat others as you would have them treat you. I would not wish to be harmed, therefore I do no harm others. When we read these stories about people who do grotesque things to children, why are we so shocked and offended? Because even without religion to tell us so, it is plain that the behavior is wrong. You don't REALLY need religion to tell you that abusing, raping and killing a child is wrong, do you? It goes against your basic human senses. It goes against human dignity and you feel it is wrong, because it is.

It's not necessarily a religious question. But there are two options - you either do it because it is the right thing to do - as a mandate with no expectation of a return, or you do it (either evolutionarily or for Karma, etc.) because you have the expectation of a positive return for yourself.

If the former, which you argue for in the post quoted above, then you have to ask how you know what is the right thing to do. If you had been raised, say by Peter Singer, you would likely believe that is was perfectly acceptable to kill a child for convenience at any age up to 2 years old. If you were raised in more conservative Muslim cultures, you would believe that honor killings, clitorectomies, wearing hijabs were appropriate treatment for women. How would you possibly know that they were 'wrong?'

[falco]

Because it's the way I would want to be treated. Hence the rule--treat others as you would have them treat you. I would not wish to be harmed, therefore I do no harm others. When we read these stories about people who do grotesque things to children, why are we so shocked and offended? Because even without religion to tell us so, it is plain that the behavior is wrong. You don't REALLY need religion to tell you that abusing, raping and killing a child is wrong, do you? It goes against your basic human senses. It goes against human dignity and you feel it is wrong, because it is.

And where does that innate knowledge of right and wrong come from?

jesus ?