Jesus Christ

[HowardRoark]

Re: Jesus Christ

Disclaimer: The following was directed to try to answer Tarlams! question as best as possible.
**Tyrone- this is not directed at you, so if you arent going to say anything constructive then i ask that you will skip it.

[Because of Easter, I don't.

I guess you're referring to the almighty "resurrection". There were less than a handful of "reliable" witnesses to that event. But I won't begin to dispute that.

If he was the bodily son of God and 1/3 of the Holy trinity, he had no business dying on the cross. I don't get it. I am just saying, I don't get it. I don't get he died for me. He should have lived for me. And he isn't alive. Jesus doesn't live. He's dead, buried and lost somewhere.

Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful. I just have lost faith in Jesus Christ. If you want to attack the topic, great. The author, please PM to relieve the forum members.

I havent read any of this thread
But what i have understood is that Jesus died on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Why did he do that? Because he loves us. thats really the only answer. It really is mind blowing, because God didn't have to choose to save us, but he did because he loves us. I really feel for you Tarlam because its not as easy as everyone says it is to be a christian, i mean Jesus in a way did live for us, because of his death no matter what we do is covered by him. The question of why doesn't it matter if we sin then is answered by if we truly belive in him, then we should not want to sin. I mean its not that easy, we still will struggle but God helps us through it.

Has it ever occured to you that Jesus may not have existed? Does that mitigate anything?

It isnt' easy being christian..of course not. When you've set up a construct like original sin...it sure ain't.

No that has never occurred to me. I fully believe that Jesus did exist and that he fulfilled everything in the Bible

Why do you believe he exists? Other than the bible there is scant evidence.

but, if he didn't, would that change things for you?

Fulfilled? According to who/what? Not the old testament.

BTW, it is very telling that when you choose to use the word bible you use the new testament...otherwise you wouldn't be making some of your statements.

Sorry Ty, obviously he is referring to the Old Testament. How can you fulfill something that you are doing? The New Testament is all about Jesus’ life and the early Christian church thereafter.

As a Jewish person, why do you think that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament. BTW, unlike you, I am not asking this to be confrontational.

[Charles Woodson]

Re: Jesus Christ

Why do you believe he exists? Other than the bible there is scant evidence.

but, if he didn't, would that change things for you?

Fulfilled? According to who/what? Not the old testament.

BTW, it is very telling that when you choose to use the word bible you use the new testament...otherwise you wouldn't be making some of your statements.

What religion are you?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: Jesus Christ

Disclaimer: The following was directed to try to answer Tarlams! question as best as possible.
**Tyrone- this is not directed at you, so if you arent going to say anything constructive then i ask that you will skip it.

[Because of Easter, I don't.

I guess you're referring to the almighty "resurrection". There were less than a handful of "reliable" witnesses to that event. But I won't begin to dispute that.

If he was the bodily son of God and 1/3 of the Holy trinity, he had no business dying on the cross. I don't get it. I am just saying, I don't get it. I don't get he died for me. He should have lived for me. And he isn't alive. Jesus doesn't live. He's dead, buried and lost somewhere.

Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful. I just have lost faith in Jesus Christ. If you want to attack the topic, great. The author, please PM to relieve the forum members.

I havent read any of this thread
But what i have understood is that Jesus died on the cross to pay the price for our sins. Why did he do that? Because he loves us. thats really the only answer. It really is mind blowing, because God didn't have to choose to save us, but he did because he loves us. I really feel for you Tarlam because its not as easy as everyone says it is to be a christian, i mean Jesus in a way did live for us, because of his death no matter what we do is covered by him. The question of why doesn't it matter if we sin then is answered by if we truly belive in him, then we should not want to sin. I mean its not that easy, we still will struggle but God helps us through it.

Has it ever occured to you that Jesus may not have existed? Does that mitigate anything?

It isnt' easy being christian..of course not. When you've set up a construct like original sin...it sure ain't.

No that has never occurred to me. I fully believe that Jesus did exist and that he fulfilled everything in the Bible

Why do you believe he exists? Other than the bible there is scant evidence.

but, if he didn't, would that change things for you?

Fulfilled? According to who/what? Not the old testament.

BTW, it is very telling that when you choose to use the word bible you use the new testament...otherwise you wouldn't be making some of your statements.

Sorry Ty, obviously he is referring to the Old Testament. How can you fulfill something that you are doing? The New Testament is all about Jesus’ life and the early Christian church thereafter.

As a Jewish person, why do you think that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament. BTW, unlike you, I am not asking this to be confrontational.

If he is referring to the old testament..then clearly he didnt' fulfill everything in the bible.

the new is basically a marketing strat designed to position him/religion.

Fulfill: Umm, any reasonably intelligent person should know the answer to this...the fact that christians don't just shows how insular they are.

The #1 criteria of the messiah is to bring heaven upon earth. Now, i'm willing to grant you that we are as close to heaven as possible with Obama...yet, i think many jews and christians would have a hard time thinking this is heaven.

[digitaldean]

Ty, I'm 45 and no I don't remember a lot of people in my church talking about their faith in public. But not talking about it doesn't have to be accepted as the norm. If that's the case, the early Christian church never would have got off the ground and flourished.

My faith has been nurtured on the teachings that if you believe, you are saved, if you don't you won't. It's pretty cut and dried. It's not meant to be patronizing. This thread has been the ONLY time I went to such extent on stating my belief. But if I raise myself above others and act that I am better than someone else who doesn't share my faith, than I am losing the whole point of why Christ came. So the "morally superior" point is only how you interpret it.

I have the teachings of the Bible that I believe is the inspired Word of God. Can I provide you with written documentation of everything that happened in the Old and New Testament? No. It's comes down to something called faith. It's been made fun of from the beginning of time. You aren't the first, you aren't the last.

I will only bring up one topic that you probably consider ludicrous, creation. Where did life come from? You can go back through your beliefs on evolution, the big bang theory, etc. but where did all the building block materials come from? They couldn't just be there, they had to come from something. Spontaneous generation, or abiogenesis has been disproved over a century ago. You obviously can't prove that the building blocks of life itself didn't just come into existence. It wouldn't be logical. So if I follow your line of reasoning, then those who don't believe that this universe wasn't created have to be subscribing to an illogical theory.

You want honesty? I am not threatened by any atheist. But, man, it sure seems a lot of atheists feel threatened about religion, especially Christianity. Oh, it can be worded in a variety of ways, but the mockery/snide comments (e.g., flying spaghetti monster) usually are a common theme.

Many faiths don't proselytize? Please, get real. Tell that to those who have seen Jehovah's Witnesses or (in more urban areas) Nation of Islam members handing out leaflets about their faith. In islam worldwide, it is known as "dawah". It's looked upon as a meritorious activity. Though not actively pursued today, Buddhists performed proselytizing missions into Western Asia/Mediterranean before Christ's birth (same applies to Jews during the Hellenistic period).

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, I'm 45 and no I don't remember a lot of people in my church talking about their faith in public. But not talking about it doesn't have to be accepted as the norm. If that's the case, the early Christian church never would have got off the ground and flourished.

My faith has been nurtured on the teachings that if you believe, you are saved, if you don't you won't. It's pretty cut and dried. It's not meant to be patronizing. This thread has been the ONLY time I went to such extent on stating my belief. But if I raise myself above others and act that I am better than someone else who doesn't share my faith, than I am losing the whole point of why Christ came. So the "morally superior" point is only how you interpret it.

I have the teachings of the Bible that I believe is the inspired Word of God. Can I provide you with written documentation of everything that happened in the Old and New Testament? No. It's comes down to something called faith. It's been made fun of from the beginning of time. You aren't the first, you aren't the last.

I will only bring up one topic that you probably consider ludicrous, creation. Where did life come from? You can go back through your beliefs on evolution, the big bang theory, etc. but where did all the building block materials come from? They couldn't just be there, they had to come from something. Spontaneous generation, or abiogenesis has been disproved over a century ago. You obviously can't prove that the building blocks of life itself didn't just come into existence. It wouldn't be logical. So if I follow your line of reasoning, then those who don't believe that this universe wasn't created have to be subscribing to an illogical theory.

You want honesty? I am not threatened by any atheist. But, man, it sure seems a lot of atheists feel threatened about religion, especially Christianity. Oh, it can be worded in a variety of ways, but the mockery/snide comments (e.g., flying spaghetti monster) usually are a common theme.

Many faiths don't proselytize? Please, get real. Tell that to those who have seen Jehovah's Witnesses or (in more urban areas) Nation of Islam members handing out leaflets about their faith. In islam worldwide, it is known as "dawah". It's looked upon as a meritorious activity. Though not actively pursued today, Buddhists performed proselytizing missions into Western Asia/Mediterranean before Christ's birth (same applies to Jews during the Hellenistic period).

There is a big difference between talking to the masses in a town square and constantly talking to one at work and other places.

There is a big difference between proslytizing and sharing. I think you are smart enough to see the difference.

Saved: You of course dont' see that as patronizing?

Creation: I understand the point you are making. However, i could just as easily ask you how god came into existence. Same issue. THe difference is that there is more science, logic, etc. behind our existence than creationism.

Atheists: They aren't threatened..they are asking for what this country is all about..separation of church and state. You don't even realize when you are abusing it...for example...on our currency and in our pledge of allegiance. Neither of which mentioned God till the 50s.

Your problem is that as a christian you are so used to getting things your way that you look at what is fair as taking away.

Proslytize: Umm, Jehovahs witnesses are christians. AS for the rest..nobody proslytizes like the christians. And, for you to use jews from the hellenistic period or rome is ludicrous. You dont find jews telling anybody that their way is the only way. BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE.

Spag: How dare you insult my god. Lack of respect on your part.

[mraynrand]

Re: Jesus Christ

The #1 criteria of the messiah is to bring heaven upon earth. Now, i'm willing to grant you that we are as close to heaven as possible with Obama...yet, i think many jews and christians would have a hard time thinking this is heaven.

Observations and questions.

Some in the Christian faith maintain that Christ did bring heaven on earth, if only all people would freely follow his teachings.

Question: People of Jewish faith maintain that their messiah has not yet arrived. What would the the messiah they wait for be like? Would he/she be like Jesus is depicted or like something else? What exactly is heaven on earth supposed to be like?

(These are both meant to be serious)

[Charles Woodson]

Ty, I'm 45 and no I don't remember a lot of people in my church talking about their faith in public. But not talking about it doesn't have to be accepted as the norm. If that's the case, the early Christian church never would have got off the ground and flourished.

My faith has been nurtured on the teachings that if you believe, you are saved, if you don't you won't. It's pretty cut and dried. It's not meant to be patronizing. This thread has been the ONLY time I went to such extent on stating my belief. But if I raise myself above others and act that I am better than someone else who doesn't share my faith, than I am losing the whole point of why Christ came. So the "morally superior" point is only how you interpret it.

I have the teachings of the Bible that I believe is the inspired Word of God. Can I provide you with written documentation of everything that happened in the Old and New Testament? No. It's comes down to something called faith. It's been made fun of from the beginning of time. You aren't the first, you aren't the last.

I will only bring up one topic that you probably consider ludicrous, creation. Where did life come from? You can go back through your beliefs on evolution, the big bang theory, etc. but where did all the building block materials come from? They couldn't just be there, they had to come from something. Spontaneous generation, or abiogenesis has been disproved over a century ago. You obviously can't prove that the building blocks of life itself didn't just come into existence. It wouldn't be logical. So if I follow your line of reasoning, then those who don't believe that this universe wasn't created have to be subscribing to an illogical theory.

You want honesty? I am not threatened by any atheist. But, man, it sure seems a lot of atheists feel threatened about religion, especially Christianity. Oh, it can be worded in a variety of ways, but the mockery/snide comments (e.g., flying spaghetti monster) usually are a common theme.

Many faiths don't proselytize? Please, get real. Tell that to those who have seen Jehovah's Witnesses or (in more urban areas) Nation of Islam members handing out leaflets about their faith. In islam worldwide, it is known as "dawah". It's looked upon as a meritorious activity. Though not actively pursued today, Buddhists performed proselytizing missions into Western Asia/Mediterranean before Christ's birth (same applies to Jews during the Hellenistic period).

My thoughts exactly, but i agree faith is the essential part to any religion, even atheism.
Btw ty, point out any promise in the old testament that wasnt fulfilled by Jesus

[digitaldean]

This is my absolute last post in this thread. I already promised another fellow rat to refrain from going any further in this thread. I just had this urge to reply back on your erroneous stances.

No, I don't see being saved as patronizing. To be honest, if you're right and I'm wrong, then I'm just going to be dead, not to be resurrected on Judgement Day to have my body and soul united in heaven with my Savior. I'm not trying to coerce anyone to believe what I believe, contrary to your insinuations.

Ty, Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Christian. They deny the physical resurrection of Christ, which is one of the main points of Christianity. No physical resurrection, no meaning to the death on the cross or Christ's life and no victory over sin and Satan.
THAT IS THE BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE.

As for the town square/workplace analogy, I don't go around preaching at work or in public. If someone brings up a topic and states their viewpoint on something at work and their reasoning or beliefs, then I'll bring my point and why. Big difference there.

As for separation of church and state, it's the same twisting of Jefferson's letter to the Anabaptists I've heard for years. I'm not interested in, nor want, a theocracy. This getting my way baloney you're stating is quite comical.

I can state all sorts of historical instances of God being called upon by those in power, from the founding fathers to Abraham Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation and so on. Not one hinted at theocracy.

As for creation, you have proven my point. God is eternal. No one needed to create Him. That's why He can do something like create the universe.

[Freak Out]

Says the guy with the red diaper in his avatar. Well said.

Zardoz!

[GrnBay007]

But if I raise myself above others and act that I am better than someone else who doesn't share my faith, than I am losing the whole point of why Christ came. So the "morally superior" point is only how you interpret it.

[gex]

Using the bible to justify the existence or meaning of Jesus is like Bush using the Niger reports of yellowcake uranium to justify attacking Iraq.

The bible is a bunch of stories culled. What was left out is just as important as what was included.

Or would you guys prefer to not know about the gospels according to Mary, Judas, Thomas, etc.

I would like to know more about these gospels that were left out of the bible. Is there a place where they are all consolidated that one could learn more about the whole truth.

[mraynrand]

Using the bible to justify the existence or meaning of Jesus is like Bush using the Niger reports of yellowcake uranium to justify attacking Iraq.

The bible is a bunch of stories culled. What was left out is just as important as what was included.

Or would you guys prefer to not know about the gospels according to Mary, Judas, Thomas, etc.

I would like to know more about these gospels that were left out of the bible. Is there a place where they are all consolidated that one could learn more about the whole truth.

Try:

http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

A bit fluffy and written at a time when the women's liberation movement was in full swing. That influence is there, but still this work is approachable, if a bit less scholarly.

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Scripture-Frederick-Fyvie-Bruce/dp/083081258X/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t

A more scholarly examination of the assembly of the canon - doesn't focus on the gnostic gospels as much

[Tarlam!]

I would like to know more about these gospels that were left out of the bible. Is there a place where they are all consolidated that one could learn more about the whole truth.

I believe they are termed "The Apocryphies" and are the books that got cut when the new testament was being edited.

It is worth mentioning, all of the Bibel was passed on by word to mouth for centuries before it was actually written down. Both new and old testament.

[Tarlam!]

A few years ago, my wife and I were leaving the US from O'hare. On the way to our terminal, we stopped at a vendor and bought sunglasses.

About 3 months ago, my pair developed a horizontal crack, which pisses me off, cause, they were not cheap.

Yesterday, I had them in my hands again. I took note of a vertical crack in the same lens. My sunnies are cracked and a crucifix is visible.

I'm freaked.

[mraynrand]

About 3 months ago, my pair developed a horizontal crack,

ouch