FYI3 - The return of the hezzbolah

[Partial]

No, I think its great they let Isreal kick the crap out of the Hezzbolah. Generally i'm a fairly peaceful person, but terrorism is not something I take lightly. Furthermore, these are the kinds of people who would kill me without thinking twice about it for no valid reason. Thirdly, the great battle between us and Syria, Iran and NK is going to happen eventually. I realize we're not fighting them directly now, but indirectly this is a blow to Iran and Syria.

I don't like war, no one does. Getting it over sooner than later will be a positive thing as we'll be more advanced technologically. We mustn't forget, we're ahead now, but for who knows how long. As technology gets more advanced, it becomes more difficult to improve. See Moore's law as a prime example of this.

Sometimes you've got to break a few eggs to make an ommelette. Though my knowledge of the situation is limited, I think this is generally a good thing for Americans and their safety.

[pacfan]

[quote="PaCkFan_n_MD"]You are saying that Hezbollah is backed by Iran and Syria and that is where they get thier funding from. Ok well Israel is backed by the United States, in fact 3.2 billion tax dollars every year are going to Israel. That is much much more than what Iran and Syria are aiding to Hezbollah. Also you are saying that Hezbollah captured Israeli soldiers, which Im not denying, but it is also important to point out that there are hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian prisoners. In the past, these prisoners were tortured some to death in Israeli prisons and kept away from thier children and wives. Also the recent missiles that are being fired into Israel are in retaliation of the current destruction of Lebanon. The country of Lebanon is currently in ruins, countless children have been murdered, and thier are very limited medical supplies and hospitals are running out of fuel to even keep the electricity on! I think if we look at the recent developments in Palestine and especially Lebanon, it seems to be more of a humanitarian crisis than a war.
[quote]

You repeating yourself with different examples. Assigning blame in war will not bring about peace. Perhaps changing the methods of communicating a position might bring a peaceful outcome.

If hezbolah really wants to bring about peace, then release the two Israeli soldiers. If rockets would stop falling into Israel maybe the jets will stop flying into Lebanon. If [insert a fundamental Islamic terror organization] were to stop blowing up buses, kidnapping, propagandizing shit that they sometimes start themselves, maybe they can earn some credibility as a legitimate organization.

Your US aid argument doesn't hold much water. The US give aid (in billions of dollars) to many Arab/Muslim nations. Egypt tops the list but Palestine was also there until the Hamas gained control. The Hamas were cut-off, not simply because they were a muslim organization, but for still embracing terror tactics as means of conveying their message. I wonder how oil money hezbolah receives from Iran?

This conflict is far to complicated to simply assign blame to one side. the only way to find a peaceful solution is to look past the travesties committed by both sides and try to move forward.

As for the crumbling landscape in Lebanon, why is nobody pointing fingers at Hezbolah? They picked the battleground to fight, 'encouraged' by Iran to engage Israel? Israel blew up hospitals, schools, all sorts of buildings; but these same buildings housed hezbolah leadership, rocket launchers, and weapons.

You'll read this a pro-Israel position and maybe it is, but hezbolah can't pretend its not covered in innocent blood either.

[Viking Troll43]

Is this the local King George is a twat (sorry ladies) thread?

I don't really care about that whole Israel-Lebanon 2000 year old war thingy. Not my cup-o-tea.

Now if you want to thrash the king, I'm your Huckleberry...

[woodbuck27]

Read this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14404.htm

and this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14491.htm

and view this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14391.htm

and finally, read this:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_len_hart_060722_israel_commits_war_c.htm

[digitaldean]

Response to Hezbollah

OK I will try keeping my post as civil as possible. But I can't disagree more with some of the posts on this subject.

Re: the present war in Lebanon...

Woodbuck, I have to fervently but respectfully disagree with the opinions stated in your links.

Wasn't the UN resolution 1559 calling for Hezbollah to be disarmed? Quoting part of this resolution it states "Calls for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias". Hezbollah has not been disbanded and disarmed. Quite the contrary, they amassed thousands of Katoushas and arms from their proxy supporters, Iran and Syria. The Lebanese have actually voted some of their members into Parliament. I know the Lebanese army is weak but it still was mandated to disarm and disband Hezbollah. If they really wanted to they could have asked for external help from neighboring countries or the UN itself.

The Lebanese people do see the social welfare side that Hezbollah has (mainly because the Lebanese gov't has failed in that aspect). But beneath that exterior is the same group that has rocketed Israel from the Bekaa Valley and Southern Lebanon. It is the same group that has done other heinous acts - the Israeli Embassy bombiing and then later a Jewish community ctr. in Buenos Aires. It's the same group that tortured and murdered Americans in Lebanon and on airliners (Navy Seal Robt. Stethem in 1985). It's the same group responsible for the Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut in 1983.

Israel has withdrawn from Gaza and withdrawn from Lebanon and have done their part. Now Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hamas and Hezbollah (more would've been taken if other attempts in 2005 succeeded), a young Jewish settler was butchered in Northern Israel by Arab extremists and they have been rocketed incessantly.

I do not blame Israel for doing what it has done. I find it amazing that Israel is always asked to show restraint. Why isn't the world screaming for Hezbollah to lay down it's arms, stop taking money from it's backers in Iran and Syria? Iran has called for Israel to be wiped off the map, where's the international condemnation on that?

Israel is hitting civilians, true. But it is widely know that Hezbollah has rocket launchers in Lebanese homes among other things. I do not have an easy answer to this. But for all who mention the "massacre at Qana", where have you seen an army announce that it would hit an area to keep civilians from getting hurt? israel dropped leaflets, broadcast on the radio about this very thing. Amazing, I never heard Hezbollah announce it would have a suicide bomber on a Jerusalem bus or announce it was going to kidnap or kill at a specific time/place. No moral equivalency here just pointing out the facts.

For those who are against the Israeli response I pose these questions:
What would you expect Israel to do? If your country's cities were getting rocketed, your soldiers kidnapped, your cities being attacked by suicide bombers what would YOU expect be done? What do you want done with Hezbollah?

What would benefit all are realistic solutions that would benefit the Lebanese and the Israelis. Talk and resolutions at the UN are utterly meaningless if one does not back them up with consequences. If the UN actually went in and did their job in south Lebanon, Hezbollah wouldn't have had free reign to cause their mayhem. If Iran withdraws support for Hezbollah and orders Hezbollah to lay down it's arms I'd demand Israel to withdraw immediately the second Hezbollah obeys it. Unlikely to happen though.

[Partial]

Re: Response to Hezbollah

OK I will try keeping my post as civil as possible. But I can't disagree more with some of the posts on this subject.

Re: the present war in Lebanon...

Woodbuck, I have to fervently but respectfully disagree with the opinions stated in your links.

Wasn't the UN resolution 1559 calling for Hezbollah to be disarmed? Quoting part of this resolution it states "Calls for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias". Hezbollah has not been disbanded and disarmed. Quite the contrary, they amassed thousands of Katoushas and arms from their proxy supporters, Iran and Syria. The Lebanese have actually voted some of their members into Parliament. I know the Lebanese army is weak but it still was mandated to disarm and disband Hezbollah. If they really wanted to they could have asked for external help from neighboring countries or the UN itself.

The Lebanese people do see the social welfare side that Hezbollah has (mainly because the Lebanese gov't has failed in that aspect). But beneath that exterior is the same group that has rocketed Israel from the Bekaa Valley and Southern Lebanon. It is the same group that has done other heinous acts - the Israeli Embassy bombiing and then later a Jewish community ctr. in Buenos Aires. It's the same group that tortured and murdered Americans in Lebanon and on airliners (Navy Seal Robt. Stethem in 1985). It's the same group responsible for the Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut in 1983.

Israel has withdrawn from Gaza and withdrawn from Lebanon and have done their part. Now Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hamas and Hezbollah (more would've been taken if other attempts in 2005 succeeded), a young Jewish settler was butchered in Northern Israel by Arab extremists and they have been rocketed incessantly.

I do not blame Israel for doing what it has done. I find it amazing that Israel is always asked to show restraint. Why isn't the world screaming for Hezbollah to lay down it's arms, stop taking money from it's backers in Iran and Syria? Iran has called for Israel to be wiped off the map, where's the international condemnation on that?

Israel is hitting civilians, true. But it is widely know that Hezbollah has rocket launchers in Lebanese homes among other things. I do not have an easy answer to this. But for all who mention the "massacre at Qana", where have you seen an army announce that it would hit an area to keep civilians from getting hurt? israel dropped leaflets, broadcast on the radio about this very thing. Amazing, I never heard Hezbollah announce it would have a suicide bomber on a Jerusalem bus or announce it was going to kidnap or kill at a specific time/place. No moral equivalency here just pointing out the facts.

For those who are against the Israeli response I pose these questions:
What would you expect Israel to do? If your country's cities were getting rocketed, your soldiers kidnapped, your cities being attacked by suicide bombers what would YOU expect be done? What do you want done with Hezbollah?

What would benefit all are realistic solutions that would benefit the Lebanese and the Israelis. Talk and resolutions at the UN are utterly meaningless if one does not back them up with consequences. If the UN actually went in and did their job in south Lebanon, Hezbollah wouldn't have had free reign to cause their mayhem. If Iran withdraws support for Hezbollah and orders Hezbollah to lay down it's arms I'd demand Israel to withdraw immediately the second Hezbollah obeys it. Unlikely to happen though.

Very well put. I agree 100%. It's time that Isreal stops being the bitch and taking Hezbollahs shit, and starts kicking some ass. I am sure the people in the White House are ecstatic this is happening right now (as sick as that sounds), because that means they don't need to do it themselves. While I don't like Bush, I think he is going to do the right thing here by stalling on any real action here and waiting for Isreal to display the power of the US to Iran and Syria. I am firmly in the corner that if you weaken Hezzbolah, Iran and Syria might be a little more hesistant to screw with the US in the future.

[Scott Campbell]

I'm of the belief that if Lebanon won't take care of their own garbage, then Israel or the international community will.

It's their country. They are responsible for providing the nurturing enviornment for Hezbollah to fester. Lebanon is responsible for what's going on in their country.

[Joemailman]

It seems odd to me that people think that Lebanon should have been able to do what Israel, with the region's most powerful military hasn't been able to do: Disarm Hezbollah. United Nations resolution 1559, which called for Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah, never should have been passed unless it was goimg to aid Lebanon in getting the job done. There now is talk of another UN force, perhaps numbering as much as 15,000, will be sent to Lebanon. I hope it works, but I'm not terribly optimistic. Any long term solution to the problem has to address the fact that Hezbollah's weapons are coming from Iran through Syria. And no, I don't think we should invade those countries. The mess we're in in Iraq pretty much rules that out anyway.

[Scott Campbell]

It seems odd to me that people think that Lebanon should have been able to do what Israel, with the region's most powerful military hasn't been able to do: Disarm Hezbollah. United Nations resolution 1559, which called for Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah, never should have been passed unless it was goimg to aid Lebanon in getting the job done. There now is talk of another UN force, perhaps numbering as much as 15,000, will be sent to Lebanon. I hope it works, but I'm not terribly optimistic. Any long term solution to the problem has to address the fact that Hezbollah's weapons are coming from Iran through Syria. And no, I don't think we should invade those countries. The mess we're in in Iraq pretty much rules that out anyway.

If they (Lebanon) couldn't do it, they should have asked for help doing it. You can't just let terrorists overun your country and not think people will get hurt/killed and buildings will get leveled. This was inevitable.

[Fosco33]

For a young person (26), I've only really seen the events of the Cold War, post Vietnam effects, and terrorist attacks from the 80's to today. Here's the text of an email forward I received on Friday about the events in a timeline. I thought it was pretty interesting - maybe controversial.

I'd say the author did a good job of showing the US attacks from terrorists - but it misses the point. Terrorists attack Israel on a daily basis but they also attack all over the world (UK, Spain, Phillapines, many African countries.....etc.).

Our airlines have been forced to prohibit any liquids/gels on planes! There are numerous other things that could be done - it's just a band-aid people. I fly twice a week across the country in major airports. I'm ditching lots of shit before I board b/c I'm too impatient to wait in more lines and baggage claims. I'd rather buy travel items and keep carrying my lugguage. My sister lives in London. Now when she travels home this month she'll just have to sit there and stare at the free magazines and crappy movies on the flight. * UK business travellers have basically lost their freedoms to work on flights bound to the US. But US workers travelling to the UK can bring cell phones and laptops - but how do you get them home? Shipping a laptop/cell phone isn't covered by insurance and is prohibited by many businesses. Are we now forced to leave the only means of communication home when we travel b/c we can't bring them back in...?


Granted this measure and intelligence work likely saved 3,000 plus lives and another 9/11 type scale attack. Living in LA and working in NY, with a brother who works in NY and a sister who lives in London (near a train station that was bombed in July 05 attacks) - this hits closer to my life than I'd rather be.

What should we do about it?
Wake up America

WWIII Started in 1979


This is not very long, but very informative You have to read the catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask yourself how anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring our troops home from Iraq, sit back, reset the snooze alarm, go back to sleep, and no one will ever bother us again. In case you missed it, World War III began in November 1979... That alarm has been ringing for years
US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month. It is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary.


AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were killed -AD) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.
It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. Embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 25 years.



America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.

America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.
Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut When it explodes, it kills 63 people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later in 1983 a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.


The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.
Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.
Then in August 1985 a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.
Fifty-nine days later in 1985 a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.


The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in1988, killing 259.

Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.

The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.
The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.


The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.
Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.


A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.. These attacks were planned with precision. They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.
The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.


In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.
I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough. America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever.. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.


After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said ".. it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.
If you believe in this please forward it to as many people as you can especially to the young people and all those who dozed off in history class and who seem so quick to protest such a necessary military action. If you don't believe it, just delete it -- and go back to sleep.

[digitaldean]

For a young person (26), I've only really seen the events of the Cold War, post Vietnam effects, and terrorist attacks from the 80's to today. Here's the text of an email forward I received on Friday about the events in a timeline. I thought it was pretty interesting - maybe controversial.

I'd say the author did a good job of showing the US attacks from terrorists - but it misses the point. Terrorists attack Israel on a daily basis but they also attack all over the world (UK, Spain, Phillapines, many African countries.....etc.).

Our airlines have been forced to prohibit any liquids/gels on planes! There are numerous other things that could be done - it's just a band-aid people. I fly twice a week across the country in major airports. I'm ditching lots of shit before I board b/c I'm too impatient to wait in more lines and baggage claims. I'd rather buy travel items and keep carrying my lugguage. My sister lives in London. Now when she travels home this month she'll just have to sit there and stare at the free magazines and crappy movies on the flight. * UK business travellers have basically lost their freedoms to work on flights bound to the US. But US workers travelling to the UK can bring cell phones and laptops - but how do you get them home? Shipping a laptop/cell phone isn't covered by insurance and is prohibited by many businesses. Are we now forced to leave the only means of communication home when we travel b/c we can't bring them back in...?

Fosco,
I don't get the inequities of the US vs. the UK for bus. travellers. It should be equal one way or the other. Considering how close those arrested came to carrying out this plot is chilling indeed. I don't think the laptop ban will stay in effect long. Too many companies will raise an uproar on both sides of the pond.

As for the other topic you posted on, I do have to agree that we are in a war. The exact time it started may be debatable, but otherwise we are truly in a war. Like the change in tactics necessitated by the slaughter in the WW1 trenches, we now have to change ours against this repugnant enemy.

We do have to be more proactive. Some cases we are, example being the counterterrorism done by the British with the help of US intercepts.

IMO, invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq are examples of it also. Yes, Iraq needs to be brought under control. (The porous eastern border with Iran allows resupply by the nutjobs in Tehran.) I could bring up the reasons, but I don't want to take over your thread.

The US and any Western nations should stop the political correctness and call this problem for what it is militant Islamism. Obviously not all Muslim and Arabic people are terrorists. But those Muslims who are against it need to be the loudest supporters of taking the attack to the Islamofascists. Though those of Middle Eastern nationalities aren't the only ones to be checked out, they should be more closely watched. Call it racism, call it profilng, I don't care. We weren't attacked by the Swedes on 9/11 for crying out loud!

There is no negotiating with groups like Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, etc. Take one look at a video of the Nick Berg beheading should squash that idea.

They want all Western gov'ts. toppled and Islamic regimes put in. They want Israel wiped out.

We have bailed too many times... Iran, Beirut (yes, Reagan pulled the troops out - my only disagreement with Reagan's presidency), Somalia. Americans and fellow Westerners better start realizing that we need to have a little more backbone. Right now my generation (I'm 42 BTW), wouldn't have cut in WW2. We are too fat, dumb and happy to ignore the facts so we can go back to our daily lives.

Well, our daily lives (or our kid's daily lives) won't be too pretty if we don't show more resolve. We have made progress (number of attacks thwarted in US since 9/11), but we have to steel our resolve to worse things to come.

Iran will be nuclear if the West keeps piddling around. That entire region will be unstable until they are dealt with. Hopefully war can be averted. But we may have no choice. If we wait until they have the bomb, it'll be too late.

Sorry for the "war and peace" version of this, but this topic is something I am very concerned about.
[/quote]

[Joemailman]

I see the current Israel/Hezbollah situation as a shocking defeat for Israel. Today, Hezbollah fired their largest number of rockets yet into Israel. A month ago, who would have thought that the only thing that would stop the Hezbollah rockets would be a cease-fire? This situation has undoubtedly improved Hezbollah's standing in the Arab/Muslim world. The cease-fire, if it works, may quiet things down for a while, but I fear that Hezbollah is just getting started.

[digitaldean]

I see the current Israel/Hezbollah situation as a shocking defeat for Israel. Today, Hezbollah fired their largest number of rockets yet into Israel. A month ago, who would have thought that the only thing that would stop the Hezbollah rockets would be a cease-fire? This situation has undoubtedly improved Hezbollah's standing in the Arab/Muslim world. The cease-fire, if it works, may quiet things down for a while, but I fear that Hezbollah is just getting started.

Their bankroll (Iran) is using this as a test to see how far they can go.

Israel's PM Olmert is already having problems from his own party. His staff's pussyfooting around ended up costing them dearly. Instead of amassing overwhelming force and invading right away they tried to win by the air. Now their offensive may be too little, too late.

Though they have been degraded severely miltarily, this conflict will bring more recruits and more money from Iran. Instead of worrying about the PR battle, they should have focused on trying to squash Hezbollah like a bug from the start.

Nasrallah could have 90% losses but with this ceasefire he can still proclaim victory and the mesmerized Arab masses would believe him.