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  • #76
    Originally posted by Partial

    Nothing is discovered, tested, etc. in Cuba. It is almost all done in America (we have by far the best universities in the world). When is the last time you heard of any major medical break-throughs from a third world country? Hell, even other powerhouse countries like China, UK, etc. It is extremely rare.




    U.S. Permits 3 Cancer Drugs From Cuba
    By Andrew Pollack
    New York Times, July 15, 2004


    The federal government is permitting a California biotechnology company to license three experimental cancer drugs from Cuba, making an exception to the policy of tightly restricting trade with that country.

    The company, CancerVax, had said late last year that it was trying to license the drugs and had been awaiting needed permission from the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control. That permission has been granted, and CancerVax is expected to announce it today.

    CancerVax executives said that it was the first time an American biotechnology company had obtained permission to license a drug from Cuba, a country that some industry executives and scientists say is surprisingly strong in biotechnology for a developing nation. In 1999, SmithKline Beecham, a large conventional pharmaceutical company now known as GlaxoSmithKline, licensed a Cuban vaccine for meningitis B that it is testing in clinical trials.

    "I think there are other product candidates and technology in Cuba that could be helpful to the
    American people, not just the American people but people around the world," said David F. Hale, chief executive of CancerVax, a newly public company that does not yet have any drugs on the market. Mr. Hale said that he had been pursuing the Cuban drugs since he first saw a poster about the work at an American cancer conference three years ago.

    A spokesman for the State Department, which helps rule on such licenses, said that the exception had been made because of the life-saving potential of the experimental Cuban drugs and that the license approval did not represent a relaxation of the trade policy.

    "These three drugs are claimed to be revolutionary life-saving medications," said the spokesman, who agreed to comment only if not identified by name. "As such, upon review it was decided that the company should have an opportunity to further research and verify the claims about these drugs."

    CancerVax, which is based in Carlsbad, Calif., plans to test the drugs in clinical trials and bring them to market if they pass muster. The first one, Mr. Hale said, which has already shown some promise in small trials, could reach the market in 2008 or 2009.

    The licensing deal calls for CancerVax to pay $6 million over the next three years, during the
    development stage. If products reach the market, the company would pay up to $35 million more.

    As a government condition of allowing the license, payments to Cuba during the developmental phase would be in goods like food or medical supplies, to avoid providing the Cuban government with currency. Any payments after drugs reach the market, Mr. Hale said, could be half in cash.

    The agreement comes shortly after the Bush administration put into effect new restrictions on
    visits to Cuba and cash remittances by Americans.

    The administration has also stated that it believes Cuba has at least a limited biological weapons research effort and that it has provided biotechnology to other "rogue states" that might be used either for medical purposes or in development of biological weapons. The Cuban government has denied it is developing such weapons.

    Representatives from both parties had sent letters to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell urging that permission be granted on medical grounds.

    One letter writer, Senator Christopher J. Dodd, the Democrat from Connecticut, hailed the government decision as good news in a statement issued yesterday. "Saving lives shouldn't be a political issue," he said.

    H. P. Goldfield and Richard A. Popkin, Washington lawyers hired by CancerVax to help win approval, said there had been no real opposition.

    "At the worst, some officials in Congress did not support us but they did not in any way try to oppose the license," said Mr. Goldfield, who is with the firm Hogan & Hartson.

    But Mr. Goldfield and Mr. Popkin, who is with the firm of Swidler Berlin Shereff Friedman, said the CancerVax approval was more difficult to obtain than SmithKline's license because of the Bush administration's tougher policy toward Cuba.

    Cuba already sells some biotechnology drugs in countries other than the United States, said José de la Fuente, the former head of research and development at the Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology in Havana. The drugs include a hepatitis B vaccine and a treatment for heart attacks called streptokinase.

    Dr. de la Fuente, who is now a research professor at Oklahoma State University, said the move into biotechnology began in the early 1980's after Fidel Castro heard about interferons - immune system proteins that were viewed back then as potential cancer cures — during a visit to Cuba by the president of M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

    More than $1 billion was spent over the years to build and operate research institutes on the west side of Havana staffed by Cuban scientists, many of them educated in Europe, Dr. de la Fuente said. But he said that the Cuban program has become weaker because the government had started to exercise more control over the scientists and because of economic pressures.

    Still, John S. Kavulich II, the president of the U.S.-Cuba Trade and Economic Council, a nonprofit
    organization in New York, said Cuba had a few drugs that have interested other American companies.

    He said one other drug-licensing deal had already been approved by Washington. An American company, that he said he was not at liberty to identify, had licensed a drug called PPG, derived from sugar cane, that was used to lower cholesterol and was also reputed to be the Cuban equivalent of Viagra for erectile dysfunction. The Treasury Department does not confirm or deny
    licensing approvals.

    The Cuban drugs that CancerVax is obtaining were developed by the Center of Molecular Immunology in Havana. They were first licensed to YM Biosciences, a Canadian company. YM Biosciences is transferring those rights to CancerVax. Mr. Hale said YM Biosciences had apparently decided to concentrate on some drugs that were further along in development. David G. P. Allan, YM's chief executive, did not return a call seeking comment.

    The Cuban drugs in question are so-called cancer vaccines, which attempt to harness the body's immune system to fight tumors.

    While the concept of cancer vaccines have excited researchers, the field has been littered with disappointments. CancerVax's own main drug is a melanoma vaccine that has been in development by an academic scientist for 40 years and is only now in the final phase of clinical trials.

    The lead drug from Cuba aims to thwart epidermal growth factor, a protein in the body that can spur the growth of cancer cells when it binds to them.

    The approach is different from the new cancer drug Erbitux, developed by ImClone Systems, which blocks the epidermal growth factor receptor, the docking port on cancer cells to which the growth factor binds.

    The Cuban vaccine, instead of trying to block the receptor, links the growth factor to a bacterial protein, which is injected into the body. Doing so is supposed to stimulate the immune system to make antibodies that attack the growth factor.

    The drug has already been tested in small clinical trials outside the United States. In one trial, according to data presented last month at the American Society for Clinical Oncology meeting, patients with advanced lung cancer who got the vaccine lived longer than those who did not receive the treatment.

    Mr. Hale said CancerVax planned to put the drug into phase 2 trials, the middle stage of testing.

    The second drug, which has not yet entered clinical trials, is a similar vaccine aimed at transforming growth factor-alpha, another protein that can stimulate cancer cell growth by binding to the epidermal growth factor receptor.

    The third, also not in clinical trials, is aimed at stimulating antibodies to the receptor.

    Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company


    I love how it states that the Bush administration claims that Cuba may be making biological weapons. Pay em in food, so as not to provide them with cash.........whata fuckin joke. If I were one of these Cuban scientists, I would tell the U.S. to take a long walk off a short pier.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Partial
      Originally posted by Freak Out
      Originally posted by Partial
      That is a big waste of money to pull the plug at that point.

      Anna worked in a lab studying the osteopontin gene and how it affected vitamin D within the human body. She would use antibodies like crazy(which cost 500 dollars a pop) and go through $100,000 worth of supplies in a month. This is just one person studying something as an undergrad in a lab of 15-20 people. Imagine the overall cost!
      As a student or an employee?
      Stu
      So where does the $$ come from to fund her work? NIH? Venture Capital? Big Pharma?
      C.H.U.D.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Freak Out
        Originally posted by Partial
        Originally posted by Freak Out
        Originally posted by Partial
        That is a big waste of money to pull the plug at that point.

        Anna worked in a lab studying the osteopontin gene and how it affected vitamin D within the human body. She would use antibodies like crazy(which cost 500 dollars a pop) and go through $100,000 worth of supplies in a month. This is just one person studying something as an undergrad in a lab of 15-20 people. Imagine the overall cost!
        As a student or an employee?
        Stu
        So where does the $$ come from to fund her work? NIH? Venture Capital? Big Pharma?
        Professor at a university. I have no idea where he gets his funding, though. She was a research assistant for 3ish years.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Partial
          Originally posted by Freak Out
          Originally posted by Partial
          Originally posted by Freak Out
          Originally posted by Fosco33
          Being an 'expert' in heathcare industry and insurance administration, I'll be able to watch this movie w/ a dif't point of view. Lots of the things mentioned (insurance staff looking for denials) is being mitigated by staff in hospitals ensuring things will be paid before service.

          Personally, I've fixed some of the largest health systems in the country (and my company overall has saved hospitals BILLIONS of dollars over the last decade). Things are pretty screwed up - that's just obvious.
          Its not screwed up for you, its not screwed up for Harvey but it is screwed up. My wife works for a large company with thousands of employees and pays a very small monthly premium for very good coverage. Good for her and myself (was good for our kids ) , but I'm self employed and if I was not married to her I would have to pay a pile of $$$ a month for the same kind of coverage. What is the GOOD reason for that? My friend who is a Engineer for the State has to pay a bit more than her for his family but makes less $$$. Look at the plans all Federal employees and Congress get to take part in. Why should they get to use those plans when other Americans are denied access? I like my Doctor and Dentist and nurses and all the admin, all these folks are worth what they get paid I'm sure....but American health care is all about profit over people now and that is wrong. Insurance companies that "manage" our health care should not be trying to return dividends to share holders but should be doing all they can for the people they serve.
          Its all sort of the benefit package with the company. Those are all things people should look at in terms of total compensation from a company.

          If a company is huge, insurance will likely be cheaper. It only makes sense.




          So if we all just worked for big Corporations everything would be fine. That's the answer.
          Harv stated the point I was getting at more elegantly. The employer is footing some of the bill for your health care, and it is most likely built into your salary. If you are unhappy with your salary and amount of health care you have to pay, you should try getting a better deal elsewhere, or getting a higher paying job.

          A big corporation(say 25k employees) will naturally get a discounted rate from the insurance company for buying in bulk. Say the company aims for 20% profit on each health insurance agreement they sell. Perhaps with that big company they settle on 18% profit to be the exclusive provider for that large corporation(with any employee not taking the corporate package to have to foot the bill themselves rather than having it through the company).

          That is all I was saying by that.
          So it is ok in your view to screw a small business person and maximize profit. Once again it's profit over people. The insurance industry has all the power.
          C.H.U.D.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
            Originally posted by packinpatland
            "I don't think it takes a genius to see that the University of Wisconsin and the University of California are the best scientific research universities in the world. They get the best professors, who attended the best schools and got the best grades, and who work the hardest and are sponsored with the big bucks to do research for pharmaceutical(or whatever field) companies."

            Just for the sake of argument, where exactly did you find that these two schools are the best?

            Sounds a tad juvenile.
            Cal and Wisconsin ranked #1 and #4 nationally in research among public institutions according to this ranking. Michigan, Minnesota, and UCLA were #2, #3, and #5, respectively.

            http://mup.asu.edu/research2006.pdf


            I'm ok with this. Substantiation is good. It does seem odd that Tufts, Harvard, Yale, wouldn't be up there.

            Comment


            • #81
              I don't think Harvard, Yale, etc. are science schools. Seems to me that they're more liberal arts/law/history schools.

              Public universities are normally the big boys for science.

              I don't think its necessarily fair to small businesses. I am just saying that is why it is. Keep in mind what I referenced was a 2% discount. Not a huge deal on a per person basis. I think its very expensive, but I also think that like gasoline, it is something you need to adapt your spending habits around.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Partial
                Originally posted by Freak Out
                Originally posted by Fosco33
                Being an 'expert' in heathcare industry and insurance administration, I'll be able to watch this movie w/ a dif't point of view. Lots of the things mentioned (insurance staff looking for denials) is being mitigated by staff in hospitals ensuring things will be paid before service.

                Personally, I've fixed some of the largest health systems in the country (and my company overall has saved hospitals BILLIONS of dollars over the last decade). Things are pretty screwed up - that's just obvious.
                Its not screwed up for you, its not screwed up for Harvey but it is screwed up. My wife works for a large company with thousands of employees and pays a very small monthly premium for very good coverage. Good for her and myself (was good for our kids ) , but I'm self employed and if I was not married to her I would have to pay a pile of $$$ a month for the same kind of coverage. What is the GOOD reason for that? My friend who is a Engineer for the State has to pay a bit more than her for his family but makes less $$$. Look at the plans all Federal employees and Congress get to take part in. Why should they get to use those plans when other Americans are denied access? I like my Doctor and Dentist and nurses and all the admin, all these folks are worth what they get paid I'm sure....but American health care is all about profit over people now and that is wrong. Insurance companies that "manage" our health care should not be trying to return dividends to share holders but should be doing all they can for the people they serve.
                Its all sort of the benefit package with the company. Those are all things people should look at in terms of total compensation from a company.

                If a company is huge, insurance will likely be cheaper. It only makes sense.

                You could get dirt cheap insurance in America and go without any new drugs or techniques for the next 1000 years, but that would be stupid and stunt progress.
                It's not about screwing anyone... when I studied SBM - one of the items discussed was HC costs (and rules after growth).

                Again, employers providing HC benefits charge more for goods/services - so there's no profit really (just a passage of monies). If your SB wanted to provide benes, you'd charge more (if you could) to pay for it....
                The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have.
                Vince Lombardi

                "Not really interested in being a spoiler or an underdog. We're the Green Bay Packers." McCarthy.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I went to that site and this is what I found for top 25 research schools.

                  Top 25
                  Nationally
                  Private Columbia University 9 0 468,484 21 406,576 11 5,190,564 6
                  Private Harvard University 9 0 454,495 24 399,764 12 25,473,721 1
                  Private Massachusetts Institute of Technology 9 0 543,448 10 427,552 9 6,712,436 5
                  Private Stanford University 9 0 671,046 8 541,667 3 12,205,000 3
                  Private University of Pennsylvania 9 0 596,756 9 435,343 7 4,369,782 10
                  Private Johns Hopkins University 8 1 1,375,014 1 1,229,426 1 2,176,909 22
                  Private Duke University 8 0 520,871 13 347,896 15 3,826,153 14
                  Public University of California - Berkeley 8 0 525,598 12 268,830 25 1,774,200 25
                  Public University of Michigan - Ann Arbor 8 0 769,126 3 521,339 4 4,931,338 7
                  Private Yale University 7 2 422,828 27 330,837 16 15,224,900 2
                  Public University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 7 1 515,061 15 308,369 20 1,968,930 23
                  Public University of Washington - Seattle 7 1 713,976 6 625,218 2 1,489,924 31
                  Public University of California - Los Angeles 7 0 772,569 2 461,145 6 668,338 78
                  Private Cornell University 6 3 406,341 30 224,828 35 3,777,092 15
                  Private Washington University in St. Louis 6 2 489,565 18 371,043 14 4,268,415 11
                  Public University of Wisconsin - Madison 6 1 763,875 4 434,423 8 1,000,857 51
                  Public University of California - San Francisco 6 0 728,321 5 418,944 10 343,646 135
                  Private University of Chicago 5 3 272,390 49 229,102 34 4,137,494 13
                  Public Univ of North Carolina - Chapel Hill 5 3 416,727 28 304,204 21 1,486,147 32
                  Public University of California - San Diego 5 2 708,690 7 465,629 5 211,178 209
                  Public Univ of Illinois - Urbana-Champaign 5 2 506,041 17 275,896 24 791,787 63
                  Private Princeton University 5 1 188,373 81 111,435 75 11,206,500 4
                  Private Northwestern University 4 5 358,947 32 230,593 33 4,215,275 12
                  Private University of Southern California 4 5 426,665 26 312,589 19 2,746,051 19
                  Public Ohio State University - Columbus 4 4 518,088 14 284,675 22 1,726,007 26
                  Public University of Pittsburgh - Pittsburgh 4 4 461,693 22 394,444 13 1,529,884 29
                  Private Vanderbilt University 3 5 318,335 37 261,484 27 2,628,437 21
                  Private California Institute of Technology 3 4 261,098 52 244,187 28 1,417,931 33
                  Public University of Florida 3 4 447,146 25 221,898 37 835,698 60
                  Public University of Texas - Austin 3 4 343,886 34 235,281 31 1,351,158 36
                  Public Penn State University - Univ Park 3 3 540,125 11 313,196 17 866,788 55
                  Public Texas A&M University 3 2 456,809 23 173,705 51 4,567,265 8
                  Private Brown University 3 1 130,741 104 84,126 99 1,843,904 24
                  Private Emory University 2 6 311,685 43 243,248 29 4,376,272 9
                  Public University of Arizona 2 5 478,680 19 283,956 23 393,400 128
                  Public University of California - Davis 2 5 511,757 16 221,937 36 400,837 125
                  Public University of Virginia 2 5 228,532 66 188,121 47 3,219,098 18
                  Private New York University 2 4 259,333 53 181,441 49 1,548,000 28
                  Public Purdue University - West Lafayette 2 3 365,779 31 144,090 59 1,340,536 38
                  Private Baylor College of Medicine 2 2 476,075 20 312,669 18 1,008,261 50
                  Private Dartmouth College 2 2 173,266 83 123,109 68 2,714,300 20
                  Private Rice University 2 0 60,872 153 51,157 130 3,611,127 17
                  Public Univ of Texas SW Medical Ctr - Dallas 1 5 314,403 39 200,888 42 724,188 72
                  Public University of Maryland - College Park 1 4 325,648 35 180,943 50 NR
                  Public Michigan State University 1 3 325,438 36 143,473 61 906,342 54
                  Public University of Colorado - Boulder 1 3 236,666 61 211,643 39 256,186 183
                  Private Rockefeller University 1 2 192,222 79 82,535 100 1,556,945 27
                  Public University of California - Irvine 1 2 257,024 55 150,995 56 169,152 248
                  Public University of California - Santa Barbara 1 2 151,325 96 92,248 94 80,830 383
                  Private University of Notre Dame 1 2 74,255 144 48,650 134 3,650,224 16
                  Public Univ of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Ctr 1 1 353,034 33 150,529 57 263,643 178
                  Research Private

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Partial
                    I don't think Harvard, Yale, etc. are science schools. Seems to me that they're more liberal arts/law/history schools.Public universities are normally the big boys for science.

                    I don't think its necessarily fair to small businesses. I am just saying that is why it is. Keep in mind what I referenced was a 2% discount. Not a huge deal on a per person basis. I think its very expensive, but I also think that like gasoline, it is something you need to adapt your spending habits around.
                    I think there are alot of Dr's out there that might disagree.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by packinpatland
                      I went to that site and this is what I found for top 25 research schools.

                      Top 25
                      Nationally
                      Private Columbia University 9 0 468,484 21 406,576 11 5,190,564 6
                      Private Harvard University 9 0 454,495 24 399,764 12 25,473,721 1
                      Private Massachusetts Institute of Technology 9 0 543,448 10 427,552 9 6,712,436 5
                      Private Stanford University 9 0 671,046 8 541,667 3 12,205,000 3
                      Private University of Pennsylvania 9 0 596,756 9 435,343 7 4,369,782 10
                      Private Johns Hopkins University 8 1 1,375,014 1 1,229,426 1 2,176,909 22
                      Private Duke University 8 0 520,871 13 347,896 15 3,826,153 14
                      Public University of California - Berkeley 8 0 525,598 12 268,830 25 1,774,200 25
                      Public University of Michigan - Ann Arbor 8 0 769,126 3 521,339 4 4,931,338 7
                      Private Yale University 7 2 422,828 27 330,837 16 15,224,900 2
                      Public University of Minnesota - Twin Cities 7 1 515,061 15 308,369 20 1,968,930 23
                      Public University of Washington - Seattle 7 1 713,976 6 625,218 2 1,489,924 31
                      Public University of California - Los Angeles 7 0 772,569 2 461,145 6 668,338 78
                      Private Cornell University 6 3 406,341 30 224,828 35 3,777,092 15
                      Private Washington University in St. Louis 6 2 489,565 18 371,043 14 4,268,415 11
                      Public University of Wisconsin - Madison 6 1 763,875 4 434,423 8 1,000,857 51
                      Public University of California - San Francisco 6 0 728,321 5 418,944 10 343,646 135
                      Private University of Chicago 5 3 272,390 49 229,102 34 4,137,494 13
                      Public Univ of North Carolina - Chapel Hill 5 3 416,727 28 304,204 21 1,486,147 32
                      Public University of California - San Diego 5 2 708,690 7 465,629 5 211,178 209
                      Public Univ of Illinois - Urbana-Champaign 5 2 506,041 17 275,896 24 791,787 63
                      Private Princeton University 5 1 188,373 81 111,435 75 11,206,500 4
                      Private Northwestern University 4 5 358,947 32 230,593 33 4,215,275 12
                      Private University of Southern California 4 5 426,665 26 312,589 19 2,746,051 19
                      Public Ohio State University - Columbus 4 4 518,088 14 284,675 22 1,726,007 26
                      Public University of Pittsburgh - Pittsburgh 4 4 461,693 22 394,444 13 1,529,884 29
                      Private Vanderbilt University 3 5 318,335 37 261,484 27 2,628,437 21
                      Private California Institute of Technology 3 4 261,098 52 244,187 28 1,417,931 33
                      Public University of Florida 3 4 447,146 25 221,898 37 835,698 60
                      Public University of Texas - Austin 3 4 343,886 34 235,281 31 1,351,158 36
                      Public Penn State University - Univ Park 3 3 540,125 11 313,196 17 866,788 55
                      Public Texas A&M University 3 2 456,809 23 173,705 51 4,567,265 8
                      Private Brown University 3 1 130,741 104 84,126 99 1,843,904 24
                      Private Emory University 2 6 311,685 43 243,248 29 4,376,272 9
                      Public University of Arizona 2 5 478,680 19 283,956 23 393,400 128
                      Public University of California - Davis 2 5 511,757 16 221,937 36 400,837 125
                      Public University of Virginia 2 5 228,532 66 188,121 47 3,219,098 18
                      Private New York University 2 4 259,333 53 181,441 49 1,548,000 28
                      Public Purdue University - West Lafayette 2 3 365,779 31 144,090 59 1,340,536 38
                      Private Baylor College of Medicine 2 2 476,075 20 312,669 18 1,008,261 50
                      Private Dartmouth College 2 2 173,266 83 123,109 68 2,714,300 20
                      Private Rice University 2 0 60,872 153 51,157 130 3,611,127 17
                      Public Univ of Texas SW Medical Ctr - Dallas 1 5 314,403 39 200,888 42 724,188 72
                      Public University of Maryland - College Park 1 4 325,648 35 180,943 50 NR
                      Public Michigan State University 1 3 325,438 36 143,473 61 906,342 54
                      Public University of Colorado - Boulder 1 3 236,666 61 211,643 39 256,186 183
                      Private Rockefeller University 1 2 192,222 79 82,535 100 1,556,945 27
                      Public University of California - Irvine 1 2 257,024 55 150,995 56 169,152 248
                      Public University of California - Santa Barbara 1 2 151,325 96 92,248 94 80,830 383
                      Private University of Notre Dame 1 2 74,255 144 48,650 134 3,650,224 16
                      Public Univ of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Ctr 1 1 353,034 33 150,529 57 263,643 178
                      Research Private
                      I really don't think that matters anyway. The point I was implying was the best universities in the world are in America. They have the best professors and the best researchers. Sure, another country might have one or two very good schools, but I am saying in general. USA high school education does not rank that highly, but their universities are at the top.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Ya, kinda funny. Moore's film also pointed out that quite a few of these countries with universal health plans also had free schooling. Including a college education.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by PackerBlues
                          Ya, kinda funny. Moore's film also pointed out that quite a few of these countries with universal health plans also had free schooling. Including a college education.
                          So what's your point? What countries?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by packinpatland
                            Originally posted by PackerBlues
                            Ya, kinda funny. Moore's film also pointed out that quite a few of these countries with universal health plans also had free schooling. Including a college education.
                            So what's your point? What countries?
                            Mwa ha ha ha ha........watch the film.




                            sorry, lol. I am thinking it was France and Britain. Dunno, I would go back and watch the movie again to tell ya, but I am gettin ready to go shoot some pool. Paul Newman is such an inspiration.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by PackerBlues
                              Originally posted by packinpatland
                              Originally posted by PackerBlues
                              Ya, kinda funny. Moore's film also pointed out that quite a few of these countries with universal health plans also had free schooling. Including a college education.
                              So what's your point? What countries?
                              Mwa ha ha ha ha........watch the film.




                              sorry, lol. I am thinking it was France and Britain. Dunno, I would go back and watch the movie again to tell ya, but I am gettin ready to go shoot some pool. Paul Newman is such an inspiration.
                              I don't think it would be Britain because many of my friends on another forum I post at live in the UK. Cost of living is very high over there in comparison to compensation from jobs, and cost of college, etc.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Partial
                                I think its very expensive, but I also think that like gasoline, it is something you need to adapt your spending habits around.
                                Fuck! My cancer is back! God damn property taxes are due! Who do I pay?
                                C.H.U.D.

                                Comment

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