Thank you mike Sherman

[Scott Campbell]

Hi Scott.

Sorry Wood, I just love that pic.

[retailguy]

sherman was the GM for the 2001 draft, he was given the job months before. do you seriously think he would give total control of his team to a guy on his way out? IMO sherman had a lot of say in that draft

the last rounds of the draft were 13 to 15, they had 2 more picks then us

Here is another example where you're just wrong, Red. You're just wrong. You can feel however you want to, but there is ZERO evidence to support your position. Your position is completely emotional and unsupported by the facts other than some rumor on footballoutsiders.com that said wolf blamed sherman for selecting reynolds. Here are the facts, supported with references.

New York Times - February 10,2001 (A good liberal like you trusts the NY times, Right?)

"Sherman is scheduled to assume his role as coach, executive vice president and general manager on June 1, when General Manager Ron Wolf retires and becomes a consultant."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402EFD91331F933A25751C0A9679C8B63

JSonline.com February 1, 2001

"Wolf said he will remain in complete control of this year's draft, scheduled for April 21-22.

After that, Wolf will officially end a 39-year career in personnel as of June 1 and then move into a consultant's role that Sherman obviously is hoping will be more extensive than Wolf intends it to be."

http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/news/feb01/wolf020101.asp

Packers.com 4/16/2001 Press Release

"There isn't anything changed," Wolf said during his last annual pre-draft press conference, adding by way of emphasis, "The process has been the same...is the same...will remain the same."


Wolf, in commenting on the transitional process, said of Sherman, "He learns by watching. He feels that's the best way of doing that - and I don't disagree with that."

http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2001/04/04-16b.html

Jsonline.com April 22, 2001

"What everyone has failed to take into consideration is where we ranked (Jamal) Reynolds," Wolf said. "He was the No. 2 guy (on the board). And he didn't cost anything. What we needed was to add someone who could rush the passer. We just felt this guy can become an impact player as a pass rusher."

http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/rev/apr01/packers23042201.asp

jsonline 2/6/2006

"I've thought over the years it might have been better with 17, 26 and 56," Wolf said. "But if we had picked Dan Morgan it wouldn't have mattered."

http://www.westerncourier.com/media/...erncourier.com


And the final one - packersnews.com June 6, 2004

“I don’t know what happened,” Wolf said this week from his home in Maryland. “You have to take the injury into account. It happened, and the guy’s never been the same player. Or, I could have missed on him. It could have just been what it’s going to turn out to be: a bad pick.”

http://www.packersnews.com/topics/mini04/mini_1_16398439.shtml

So, Red, can you just give up on Sherm the GM in 2001? Focus on 2002-2004, take a real clear look at those drafts. You'll discover that Sherman traded 20 draft picks during those three years. THAT alone was the root of his problems. Wolf taught him to trade up - after all, Wolf traded up for reynolds, but he also traded 5 picks to San Francisco that year for three higher ones as he thought the bottom rounds had poor talent.

Sherman went for broke and failed, THAT is his legacy. You can feel however you want, but PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

I don't hold Sherman high in reverence for his drafting abilities either, however, I understand what Sherman was trying to accomplish, he didn't make it, and that will be his ultimate legacy, not all this other BS you guys always seem to talk about.[/url]

[mraynrand]

I e-mailed Cliff Cristl about this very issue (the control of the 2001 draft). He said that to the best of his knowledge, Wolf was in total control, but that he accepted and listened to input from the coaching staff.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

sherman was the GM for the 2001 draft, he was given the job months before. do you seriously think he would give total control of his team to a guy on his way out? IMO sherman had a lot of say in that draft

the last rounds of the draft were 13 to 15, they had 2 more picks then us

Here is another example where you're just wrong, Red. You're just wrong. You can feel however you want to, but there is ZERO evidence to support your position. Your position is completely emotional and unsupported by the facts other than some rumor on footballoutsiders.com that said wolf blamed sherman for selecting reynolds. Here are the facts, supported with references.

New York Times - February 10,2001 (A good liberal like you trusts the NY times, Right?)

"Sherman is scheduled to assume his role as coach, executive vice president and general manager on June 1, when General Manager Ron Wolf retires and becomes a consultant."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402EFD91331F933A25751C0A9679C8B63

JSonline.com February 1, 2001

"Wolf said he will remain in complete control of this year's draft, scheduled for April 21-22.

After that, Wolf will officially end a 39-year career in personnel as of June 1 and then move into a consultant's role that Sherman obviously is hoping will be more extensive than Wolf intends it to be."

http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/news/feb01/wolf020101.asp

Packers.com 4/16/2001 Press Release

"There isn't anything changed," Wolf said during his last annual pre-draft press conference, adding by way of emphasis, "The process has been the same...is the same...will remain the same."


Wolf, in commenting on the transitional process, said of Sherman, "He learns by watching. He feels that's the best way of doing that - and I don't disagree with that."

http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2001/04/04-16b.html

Jsonline.com April 22, 2001

"What everyone has failed to take into consideration is where we ranked (Jamal) Reynolds," Wolf said. "He was the No. 2 guy (on the board). And he didn't cost anything. What we needed was to add someone who could rush the passer. We just felt this guy can become an impact player as a pass rusher."

http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/rev/apr01/packers23042201.asp

jsonline 2/6/2006

"I've thought over the years it might have been better with 17, 26 and 56," Wolf said. "But if we had picked Dan Morgan it wouldn't have mattered."

http://www.westerncourier.com/media/...erncourier.com


And the final one - packersnews.com June 6, 2004

“I don’t know what happened,” Wolf said this week from his home in Maryland. “You have to take the injury into account. It happened, and the guy’s never been the same player. Or, I could have missed on him. It could have just been what it’s going to turn out to be: a bad pick.”

http://www.packersnews.com/topics/mini04/mini_1_16398439.shtml

So, Red, can you just give up on Sherm the GM in 2001? Focus on 2002-2004, take a real clear look at those drafts. You'll discover that Sherman traded 20 draft picks during those three years. THAT alone was the root of his problems. Wolf taught him to trade up - after all, Wolf traded up for reynolds, but he also traded 5 picks to San Francisco that year for three higher ones as he thought the bottom rounds had poor talent.

Sherman went for broke and failed, THAT is his legacy. You can feel however you want, but PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

I don't hold Sherman high in reverence for his drafting abilities either, however, I understand what Sherman was trying to accomplish, he didn't make it, and that will be his ultimate legacy, not all this other BS you guys always seem to talk about.[/url]

Good post.

[woodbuck27]

"Good post." Anti-Polor Bear

Hello Tank . Just wanted to say hello !!

Ed. woodbuck27

[Anti-Polar Bear]

"Good post." Anti-Polor Bear

Hello tank . Just wanted to say hello !!

Ed. woodbuck27

Sup, woodbuck. Why, thank you.

[Fritz]

From the Green Bay Press Gazette:

"Washington’s departure is another black mark on Mike Sherman’s drafting ability during his stint as general manager. While the Packers had a winning record under Sherman, his drafting was suspect. During the 2004 draft, the Packers had three third-round picks. Two of them, Washington and cornerback Joey Thomas, have been released. The third, punter B.J. Sander, isn’t a lock to make the team this season."

There you go, Tank. Another third round winner from Shermie.

[woodbuck27]

Hi Scott.

Sorry Wood, I just love that pic.

No problem Scott . . .and yes you do love that pic as Mike S. lapsed. . . beyond boredom. It is funny but just a little embarassing to Mikey.

Literally, I was simply saying hello Packer fan. Hope things are Super with you.

PEACE Scott.

[red]

retailguy, i went right off shermans bio that said he was given the job feb 1st in 2001. it did say that wolf would be on through the draft. i still can't see how the new gm would not have a lot of say in the picks that the old gm is going to make. i find it insane to think a guy who s about to completely take over a team, and is already a big part of the team, would let someone on his way out the door just do whatever he wants.

we'll cut it out and only include drafts that sherman had 100% absolute power over. even if you take away that 1st year from both team, shermans drafts were horrible. 7 players in 3 years with 3 starters. thats still absolutely pathetic. is it not?

the steelers had 6 starters and 3 backups picked in that time. its still a 2 to 1 starter ratio for them verus us

anyway you want to cut it up, sherman sucked at being a gm

now get off my fucking back. if i really wanted to slant numbers to make my point, i easily could

[mraynrand]

7 players in 3 years with 3 starters.

I guess it depends on what you mean by a starter. Does starting for one game count, or does it have to be multiple games? DO they have to be starters this year, or at the ned of last year.

A partial list of starters (for at least one game):

Walker (used an additional 2nd round pick to move up)
Glenn (traded for with two 4th round picks)
Harris (traded for with a second round pick)
Davenport
Kampman
Fisher (Rookie FA, started several games)
Barry (Rookie FA, started at least one game)
Barnett
Sander
Carroll
Jenkins (Rookie FA)
Peterson
Lee (started at least one game)

I agree that Sherman was no great shakes as a GM, but if you add in rookie free agents, and the guys he picked up using (wasting) draft picks, he was not terrible, in my opinion - just marginal (maybe a 4-5 on a scale of 1-10 for GMs). Millen is terrible. Butch Davis (was) terrible. Those guys blew multiple high first round draft picks. The highest pick Shermy ever had was #20 (Walker) and he had to trade up to get it.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

now get off my fucking back. if i really wanted to slant numbers to make my point, i easily could

Red, I think Retail Guy has defeated you.

[Bretsky]

7 players in 3 years with 3 starters.

I guess it depends on what you mean by a starter. Does starting for one game count, or does it have to be multiple games? DO they have to be starters this year, or at the ned of last year.

A partial list of starters (for at least one game):

Walker (used an additional 2nd round pick to move up)
Glenn (traded for with two 4th round picks)
Harris (traded for with a second round pick)
Davenport
Kampman
Fisher (Rookie FA, started several games)
Barry (Rookie FA, started at least one game)
Barnett
Sander
Carroll
Jenkins (Rookie FA)
Peterson
Lee (started at least one game)

I agree that Sherman was no great shakes as a GM, but if you add in rookie free agents, and the guys he picked up using (wasting) draft picks, he was not terrible, in my opinion - just marginal (maybe a 4-5 on a scale of 1-10 for GMs). Millen is terrible. Butch Davis (was) terrible. Those guys blew multiple high first round draft picks. The highest pick Shermy ever had was #20 (Walker) and he had to trade up to get it.

I'd agree with the terrible, and IMO you are stretching to make your point by including one game starters and giving Sherman credit for terrible moves such as Glenn and Sanders. I belive Red was analyzing Sherman's drafts and if you look at his draft picks they are no short of horrible.

Looking at your list, trading TWO fourth round picks to rent Terry Glenn for one season is poor....Najeh Davenport has started, but he is not a starter. If you count Davenport then you can give Sherman credit for a bunch of crappy lineman that once started last year as well and you could add numerous players to the list who spot started for injuries. Tony Fischer ? Was never drafted and we valued him so much we didn't try to resign him this year. Kevin Barry.....one game...again if that is the criteria then we can add a lot of chumps to the list.........and he was never drafted. BJ Sanders is nothing short of a nightmarish terrible draft day move and will be fortunate to be on a NFL roster this year. Cullen Jenkins was not drafted. To include Lee as a partial starter...well....insert your own words...and remember Sherman gave up two draft picks for Lee, a NFL Europe talent who didn't even start full time in college, and Peterson, who is just starting to show a few flashes.


The legitimate starters Sherman brought in via draft in three years were Barnett, Walker, and Kampman. Maybe....maybe Carroll. But that's it. Mike Sherman would have been much better off taking every second and third round pick he had and trading for guys like Al Harris.

On the 1-10 scale, I think I'm being generous with a 2.

[RashanGary]

Nice post Bretsky...

[falco]

man the kool aid dude totally burned red....lets give a thumbs up for fair and unbiased analysis.

[Bretsky]

man the kool aid dude totally burned red....lets give a thumbs up for fair and unbiased analysis.

RG is correct; all facts and stories written have sided with the idea that Ron Wolf completely ran that draft.

But I don't blame Red one bit if he believes Mike Sherman had more to say about that 2001 draft than most think. Sherman was hired well before that draft, and common sense would dictate that Wolf and Sherman would act together and Sherman would make the final call since he's the GM going forward. But that's not where any evidence we have points to, and since we weren't there at the draft to listen in it's a hard view to argue.

I have heard Ron Wolf made reference to Dan Morgan being the higher rated football player, but Green Bay chose Reynolds...who was more a need pick. IMO Sherman always had the weakness of choosing for need.

On the other hand, Wolf was quoted as saying he royally SCREWED UP BAD in round two by recommdinding FegyFraud over Chris Chambers so that was his doing.

B