Jags installs cut blocking....

[Partial]

sending 300+ pounders full speed is a hell of a lot of force into someone's knees. Especially when they are 300+ pounds themselves with bad knees.

That is not within the context of "football is a violent sport by nature, people get hurt". This is a deliberate intent on taking someone to the ground by kocking their legs down. Shitty if you ask me.

[Tarlam!]

Two things:

1. Football is a violent sport. People will get injured regardless of techniques used. Unless you want to change the acronym "NFL" to stand for "National Flagfootball League" get over it.

2. At the risk of being redundant - What are the penalties for illegal cut/chop blocking specifically for the Offensive Line??

I am fully O.K. with testosterone flying around. I love a good hit. One, where a player rises from from the gridiron after someone like Collins just smacked him to the point of a´n interstellar leap.

The thing is, he gets up. He is not carried off. I am not a wuss. I like a good hit. A GOOD hit.

[Rastak]

Hey ND, I wasn't ragging on you by the way, I do respect your opinion. I swear I'm just trying to understand this and you seem to have some experience.

[chain_gang]

Well, in my opinion, I don't feel it should be legal. People say what about the QB's(Carson Palmer rule, Blow to the head), WR's(Defenseless Wideout), there should be something to protect your mutli-million dollar DE, Remember Erasmus James, Purdue game Senior year, how did all of us Badger fans feel about that, whether it's a legal cut block or illegal it's up to the discretion of the officials. Which judging by all of last years playoff games is not a good idea. Now that said if the Packers win games with this new scheme, great, I love to see wins, but if any other team did it to Green Bay(For example the whole NFC North) I'd be pissed if my player got injured because of it.

The reason why the knee injuries aren't that common is because most teams don't run a consistent cut block offense, which will be what the packers run on the majority of plays. Install more running offenses like the Packers, Falcons, and Broncos and you'll see more injuries to opposing D's DL's. Hell I'll bet this year we'll see injuries to D-lineman this year, because the packers and Texans are running the Zone running game this year. That could be our comparison I guess.

Like I said I hope it works for GB and leads us to the playoffs, but I also hope that we don't end the seasons of too many D-lineman among the way.

[woodbuck27]

"I thought Sapp's hit was acceptable. He was playing football. Clifton was jogging half assed and Sapp threw him on the ground. Had Clifton been paying attn, he wouldn't have been injured, he would have just fought off a block. Because he got injured, people make it bigger than it was, but IMHO Sapp was just playing football." NickCollins

Nick with all respect. . . but that comment is objectionable.

Sapp's block on Chad Clifton was pure Bush League, and one of the worst cheap shots I've ever witnessed in the NFL. Clifton was too far from the play to be of any real effect in taking down the Buc that got that turnover.

Clifton was moving almost laterally across the field to his left and SAPPY blindsided him. That is the clear TRUTH.

The entire Packer Team should have run Warren Sapp out of the stadium, not left it to Mike Sherman to address him as he did after the game.

The absolute worst BUSH League play I've ever seen. I F'n can't stand Sapp since that cheap shot.

[woodbuck27]

From an article on the cut block:

It's a virtual certainty Green Bay's opponents will despise this philosophical change ( the cut block ). But some Packers don't seem to care.

"Some people think it's dirty," center Scott Wells said. "I just think it's part of football. It's not dirty. The defense has just as good of an opportunity to defend it as you do to make the block."

Atlanta consultant Alex Gibbs was one of the originators of the cut block and used it for years when he was the offensive line coach in Denver. New Packers offensive coordinator Jeff Jagodzinski, who was the offensive line coach in Atlanta last year, learned the finer points of cut blocking from Gibbs.

The technique is legal as long as a defensive player isn't engaged with another blocker. But it's been widely criticized because it leaves defensive linemen susceptible to injury.

In fact, in a game Jagodzinski coached last season, Carolina defensive ends Julius Peppers and Mike Rucker both suffered sprained ankles after being cut blocked by Falcons players.

Two years ago, Cincinnati defensive tackle Tony Williams suffered a broken ankle after being cut blocked by Broncos tackle George Foster. And Green Bay fans will never forget defensive tackle John Jurkovic suffering a torn medial collateral ligament after being cut by Dallas' Erik Williams in the 1995 playoffs.

"Sometimes it's part of the game. But sometimes it's total B.S.," Green Bay defensive tackle Colin Cole said. "Regardless of how you look at it, it's bad that they do it."

The Packers have worked on the technique during various drills this off-season. But because the risk of injury is so great, they won't cut their own players during training camp. So it won't be until the exhibition season that Green Bay's offensive linemen begin cut blocking during live action.

"It's a tough thing to get down," right tackle Mark Tauscher said. "You have to bring your feet with you or you can look pretty foolish. That's happened to all of us, and I'm sure it will happen again. But so far, I like it."

[Partial]

You know something is shady when our own players are speaking out about how they don't like it. Read Cole's statement on it.[/i]

[Rastak]

You know something is shady when our own players are speaking out about how they don't like it. Read Cole's statement on it.[/i]

ND72, any response to my question? Again, I'm not being confrentational. You seem to know your stuff and I'm asking a question.

[Deputy Nutz]

You can cut a guy any where you want inside the 3 yard box, you can also block a guy in the back with in the the 3 yard box. I think you're all been a bunch of pussies about this.

I learned how to cut a guy when I was 13 years old playing left guard. It is simply part of the game. I also played nose tackle in high school and defensive tackle in college for a couple of seasons and I got pissed when I caught a cut block in the back of the legs, but it also told me not to charge up field like a dumb ass the next time around. I can see it from both sides since I played both offensive and defensive line in college. Of course defensive guys are going to hate this block it can leave them a bit exposed, but tough shit, keep your head on a swivel.

Once again the NFL needs to crack down on the chop block from behind. I admit the defensive player is defenseless because he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.

Once again nothing to talk about so we can totally blow this topic out of proportion. Seriously if any of you actually played the game of football you will realize that this is not a new thing what so ever. Gibbs has used it to a greater extent and has been liberal with how he has coached his chop block, but like I said I learned it the same week I put a helmet on for the first time and believe it our not Alex Gibbs was not my middle school offensive line coach.

I am so damn happy that other teams in the North Division are going to have to deal with this. It will knock them off there fucking rocker.

[KYPack]

Well Nutz, you sure told 'em. I don't think I was in the puss camp at all. You diatribe is correct. This is not new thing in the NFL. In fact, Forrest Gregg ( a former OL) was proably the biggest proponent of interior blocks in the back.

When his coached the Bengals, Gregg insisted on both cuts and blocking in the back for his interior lineman. There was a famous incident with the Bengals. An OLineman asked the line coach if these kinds of blocks were "ethical".
Gregg got wind of this treasonous question and barged into the offensive meeting. Witnesses described Gregg as truly "scary". Gregg was red in the face, nostrils flared, and eyebrows twitching as he screamed at the players...

"Goddamnitt, that's the way that play is drawn up and that's the way it''ll be run. If you all don't want to make those blocks, I'll find somebody who can"!!
(Add as many F's and other cuss words you need)

The Redskins, The Bengals, the Steelers, all have been famous for these kinds of blocks. What is "new" in the Gibbs system is the blocks in the back coming from down the line. I was at the Bengal Bronco game which Tony Williams got ythe broken leg. Foster came way down the line from the backside of the play. Williams had been creating havoc with the Bronco stretch play all day. Foster nailed his ass & then they replayed 10 times while Williams was getting carted off. There was mayhem in the air in that stadium that night.

[pbmax]

What is "new" in the Gibbs system is the blocks in the back coming from down the line. I was at the Bengal Bronco game which Tony Williams got ythe broken leg. Foster came way down the line from the backside of the play. Williams had been creating havoc with the Bronco stretch play all day. Foster nailed his ass & then they replayed 10 times while Williams was getting carted off. There was mayhem in the air in that stadium that night.

Exactly. I loved the piece by Rosiak that ascribed the development of the cut block to Gibbs himself. It read as though they were crediting Gibbs with inventing it.

Bob McKittrick, when he was with Walsh, pre-dating Holmgren, used this block as well.

What I could not find online, was when this block first was used. Anybody know?

[woodbuck27]

"What I could not find online, was when this block first was used. Anybody know?' pbmax

That will be a tough one pbmax but while I was looking for the answer i discovered this resource on Offensive line Duty. A long good read for anyone wanting to be in the same shape as Nutz is, on everything OL


Blocking


Actions used by offensive linemen in American football to move defenders away from the play of the ball. Blocking means pushing someone in the direction you want him to go, or to prevent a defender from getting to an area of the field you and your teammates are guarding. I shall assume you know something of the rudiments of the game.

The Offensive Line

The offensive line is defined as the five players who block and who are not allowed to catch a forward pass. They consist of one center, who snaps the ball to start the play, two guards, and two tackles.

At the beginning of a play, the offensive team lines up about the ball. The center holds the football, which still touches the ground, and prepares to snap it to the quarterback to begin the play. Immediately to his left and right are two guards. To their outside are the two tackles.

The blocking assignments are

C - Center
G - Guard
T - Tackle

A center is at the center of the offensive line. He must block straight ahead or left or right. Usually the defensive line will have only four men, and he does not have a DL assigned to him. He will help out to block whichever guard will need the most help. Sometims he will run downfield and block a linebacker, a difficult assignment. As head of the corps of offensive linemen, he is their anchor and their brains. He will have to adjust his linemen's blocking assignments if he feels the defense is going to do anything tricky. A good center in professional football will be about 6'4" and will have wrestled as a heavyweight wrestler. His lateral movements are very good.

A tackle is large and in charge. He is an anchor blocker, which means he is one of the largest and strongest men on the team. When a pocket of blockers collapses around the quarterback during a passing play, a guard and a tight end will block next to him in a formation reminiscent of a Greek phalanx: shoulder to shoulder. A tackle is a quiet man, but brutally strong. He takes it as a point of honor that none shall pass him. Professional tackles are behemoths. They can be 6'6" or bigger and usually weigh north of 300 lb. They are surprisingly agile for such big men. Watching an offensive tackle and a defensive tackle (also a large man) crash into each other is like watching two sumo wrestlers collide.

A guard is what's left over: He's about the same size as the center but less coordinated. He has good straight-ahead strength. He fits well with the rest of the line. He's dependable. Pulling guards are rarer than hens' teeth, because they have to be big AND run fast.

Basic Blocks

Blocking techniques are well described, with diagrams, at http://eteamz.active.com/football/in...s/tip.cfm/589/

"There are three Golden Rules of Blocking. First, the blocker must keep his head between the defender and the play, maintaining proper position. Second, the feet never stop moving. And third, blocks are maintained until the whistle", which signals the end of the play.
There are ten basic types of block an offensive lineman uses. I shall describe some of them here.

The drive block is the most basic: the lineman fires out of his stance into the chest of the defensive lineman, low and hard. Feet keep churning. The objective is to move the lineman from his position. It's a strength on strength move. This is usually called for when the ball is being run into this area.

The read block calls for the blocker to make contact with the defender in the middle of the torso and "read" the defender. The idea is the defender will choose a shoulder to attempt to go around, and the blocker then proceeds to assist the defender in that direction. This is used when the direction of play is away from the OL's area of play, and it doesn't matter where the DL is getting moved to. It's a half-strength move that uses leverage against the defender.

The position block has the blocker position himself between the play and the defender. I can't describe this any better than the author does: "If the defender to be blocked is already lined up in such a manner, this block might be referred to as an Angle Block. If the defender has the superior angle on the blocker, then the blocker will attempt to "Hook" the defender. This is accomplished by making contact with and sliding the head to the outside of the defender. The blocker turns his behind to the running lane fully placing himself between the defender and the play. The hands are extended."

The double team block is when two blockers block the same man. A defensive back like a linebacker who rushes to fill the exposed gap is usually met by another blocker: either a pulling OL or a fullback. The collision of these two giants, who are running at full speed at each other, is something to behold. Linemen are taught to watch their knees for rolling bodies during the play.

The trap block is a bit of trickery which counts on a defensive lineman's over-aggressiveness. The blocker purposely vacates his spot, which permits the DL to rush in unopposed. He's counting on being hit, but when he's not, he's leaning into the run, and for a split second is off balance. Another lineman further down the line blindsides him with a block. The clipping penalty is not in force when blocks happen in the region between tackles, which permits this blocking to be legal. The block, if done correctly, is an enormous surprise to a DL and can be effective if used infrequently, but it requires a great deal of training to get the timing and coordination right. Trap blocks are practiced over and over again in blocking practices, but are only used a few times a game. Sometimes this is called a crack-back block, or simply a crack-back.

The cross block attempts to take advantage of pre existing angles at the point of attack. Which blocker "goes first" is determined by the running lane and defensive alignments and tendencies. Good communication between the offensive linemen is a must in order to properly execute a good cross block.

The cross pull block has the pulling blocker coming from his own side of the line across the Center position to the other side. The Pull Block occurs when the pulling player pulls to the same side of the line he is on, going even wider toward the side line.

Other blocks are mentioned at the web site mentioned above, but it's hard to explain them without actually playing the game.

Stances

An offensive lineman is not permitted to grab and hold the uniform of a defensive player. He must keeps his hands open or tucked close to his uniform. Blocking point of contact is at the offensive lineman's helmet and shoulder pads. If a defender must be driven right, the offensive lineman sticks his helmet to the left of the defender, and vice versa. Blocking is hardest on the legs and knees. Blockers are prone to knee and back injuries, since these joints absorb most of the impact of a large lineman.
Training

Training:

consists of a strength and conditioning regimen as well as skill drills.

Conditioning consists of weight training: bench presses and leg presses, as well as the usual arm and Pilates-like core conditiong exercises every athlete must endure. Runs develop the cardiovascular system.

Blocking sleds are the bane of every OL's life. They are man-sized pads attached to a flat metal boat-like structure that can slide across grass. You line up across from a dummy, and when the coach calls a whistle, you fire out of your stance and hit it, full speed. The boat moves a little. When you pop the sled, you drop to the ground, roll over like a dog, and get back into a stance ready to hit the next dummy. There are eight dummies per sled. Sometimes the offensive line coach, who's standing on the sled, wishes the sled to be moved across the field. This is when you start wondering when exactly you're going to puke. Because you will, eventually. Imagine doing blocking drills under the hot Alabama sun, under the merciless stare of Paul "Bear" Bryant, The University of Alabama's tyrant for so many decades. Only a few players died under his tutelage. This thought consoles you.

Skill drills are where blockers learn the choreography of the blocking patterns. Direct blocks are practiced with a man directly over you as well as when the defensive linemen line up in the gaps beween you and your teammate. Trap blocks and pull blocks are practiced over and over and over again until you can do them in your sleep. Containment blocks, used during passes, can't be taught except with live, rushing defensive linemen seeking to destroy your quarterback. You learn how to collapse your pocket of protection, and you learn how to adjust when your QB scrambles out of the pocket.

Social aspects

Linemen are likely to socialize more than any of their teammates. Since their blocking assignments are so highly choreographed, they want to get to know each other both on and off the field. They have dinners together and party together. It is something to see four or five big uglies dancing at the same time. For some reason they seem to marry the most petite women imaginable.

Want to know why Green Bay Packers quarterback legend Brett Favre is so popular with his linemen? He does blocking drills with them (or at least he used to). He has a workmanlike attitude they find endearing. He's not a prima donna. He takes hits like a man, and he doesn't complain about injuries. They don't comment when he's hurt, but they notice. If there's something a lineman knows, it's playing with pain and injury.

"He has played through a torn knee ligament and a broken thumb and despite that has started 209 consecutive regular season and playoff games. While other quarterbacks are often held out for lesser injuries, Favre continued to play through them and play through them at a high level." - Devastakar

He praises them in interviews. Nothing a lineman likes better than being praised by your quarterback. You may be quiet and shun the limelight, but it's still nice getting an attaboy from the star of your team. And he buys dinners for them. Praise is nice, but ribs is nicer, yassuh. Pass the sauce, would you, Brett?

"That Favre would celebrate primarily with his linemen, the big uglies, made him more of a champion for the unheralded." - Devastakar
Color commentator Terry Bradshaw was a Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback who also endeared himself to his linemen. He was almost as big and almost as strong as some of his linemen, and had the joie de vivre they enjoyed. He hung out with his linemen and partied with them. They loved him for it.

The interior game

I've written about blocking in technical terms, but now I wish to describe to you what it's like to actually block as an offensive lineman. I played football at a variety of skill positions at the high school football level, including playing offensive guard when I was needed there.

Defensive linemen are big and fast. They come off the ball fast, straight ahead. They wish to knock me down and run over me in pursuit of the man with the ball.

The stupid ones rarely look at the offensive lineman - he's merely an impediment. They think their strength will win the duel. If he's weak, I can handle him myself. Since I know the snap count, I try to get lower than him, below his arms, and raise him up with a forearm shiver before he has time to react. If I can get at his hip level and drive his body up, I have won. A man cannot rush effectively if his body isn't parallel to the ground. If I am much stronger than he is, it would give me great joy to knock him on his ass. There is no greater happiness standing over a man, while your arms are taped up and padded and look down on him with a glower and a promise to do it again the next time.

If he's strong, my fellow center or tackle will assist with the blocking.

A smart defensive lineman is incredibly hard to block.

He doesn't have to be strong, just smart and quick. He will look at me to attempt to read my blocking stance.

Will I block him left, or right? Will I even block him at all? Perhaps I will block the man on his left or right, and let someone else block him. He will look at my eyes to see where I am looking, but he will also look at my fingers: are they held normally? Are they clenched in abnormally tight clench? Do I look nervous? This usually tells him the run is right through my hole, and that I'm nervous about this next play.

When I line up in my stance, I can't give him any reads or, as poker players call them, tells. On passing plays, I have a tendency to rock back on my heels, because I will be retreating into a pocket around the quarterback. On block plays, I tend to lean forward and breathe harder for the blow-out block. But against a smart player I can't show anything that will give him an indication of the play's direction.

As we line up for snap count, the defensive linemen are talking to us. "You cunt. I'm going to hit you so hard your mamma's gonna have to call an ambulance." I shouldn't be saying anything, because I'm listening to the snap count or to check off colors, when my quarterback changes the play at the line of scrimmage. However, I'm looking at my man as well. Is he going to go to my left, to my right, or just bullrush me right up my numbers? I am also summoning my energies to hit him. I don't want to just hit him, I want to control the motherfucker. I want to dominate him. I want to humiliate him. And the guys on either side of me are looking up at their men, thinking the same thing.

The center may take his free hand and point, and tell us how we're to block. He is free to do so until we get into our blocking stance. From then on, we are not permitted to move until the ball goes into play.

The ball is snapped. Mayhem ensues.

How to describe this part? Well, it's about three seconds of pure violence. I fire out of my stance, like a runner out of sprinting blocks, feet wide apart, churning and moving all the time. My arms come up to hit him hard. He's doing the same to me, but he has the luxury of using his hands to grab my jersey and pull or push as he wishes. I know where my runner is moving, so I block to give my runner a nice hole to run through. Feet moving. arms furiously hitting my man as furiously as he's hitting me. One of us crumples first. Sometimes we collapse to the ground in a big pile, both exhausted.

In the pile of bodies that is the trench, there's a lot of pushing and shoving. Sometimes biting. MOTHERFUCKER WHO BIT ME? Sometimes a finger into the eyes. This is when fights start. We understand dirty trench fighting, but this is not permitted by unspoken convention. Fingers get twisted. My back gets stepped on by somebody. Whistles are blowing, signalling the end of the play, but my face is down in the mud. I can't see a damned thing until everybody else gets off me. My man pushes off me one more time. "Beat you that time cocksucker." I look up. I'll put my helmet against his and smile and say, "We made fifteen fucking yards, stupid. Eat shit and die." His eyes will flash and he'll say, "I'm going to fucking destroy you." "Any time, any where, bro."

Ladies and gentlemen, that's blocking.



REFERENCES

On types of blocks commonly used including diagrams go to:

http://eteamz.active.com/football/instruction/tips/tip.cfm/589/

On the lineman's stance go to :

http://eteamz.active.com/football/instruction/tips/tip.cfm/1669/

JohnnyGoodyear's encyclopedic knowledge of American football.

woodbuck27: Packer fans etc. I hope you enjoyed that article, as it really defines the OL requirements, and all the skills that an effective offensive lineman must acquire and use to make the offence WORK ! When you look back upon the OL we had in place, just a few years ago, I believe you will certainly agree, with the luxeries and advantage's that group of O-lineman contributed to the overall effectiveness of OUR "O".

We are now seeing a new group of inexperienced players attempt to learn the ZBS and aid the run and protect OUR QB. That is no small task requirement of OUR coach's and these new Packers. Being an effective O-Lineman is a daunting task.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.eteamz.com/football/o-line/runpage.htm

Also if your bored. . . use the above link for more information on OL blocking etc.

[woodbuck27]

Two things:

1. Football is a violent sport. People will get injured regardless of techniques used. Unless you want to change the acronym "NFL" to stand for "National Flagfootball League" get over it.

2. At the risk of being redundant - What are the penalties for illegal cut/chop blocking specifically for the Offensive Line??

Here you go :

Article 14

A chop block . . . is a foul by the offence, in which one offensive player (designated as A1 for purposes of this rule) blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower while another offensive player (A2) occupies that same defensive player in one of the circumstances described in subsections (1) through (6) below.

(1) On a forward pass play, A1 chops a defensive player while the defensive player is physically engaged by the blocking attempt of A2.

(2) On a forward pass play in which A2 physically engages a defensive player witha blockng attempt, A1 chops the defensive player after the contact by A2 has been broken and while A2 is still confronting the defensive player.

(3) On a forward pass play, A1 chops a defensive player while A2 confronts the defensive player in a pass blocking posture but is not physically engaged with the defensive player (a "lure").

(4) On a forward pass play, A1 fires out aggressively and blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2, engages the defensive player high.


Note: Each of the above circumstances (1) through (4) which describe a chop block foul on a forward pass play, also applies on a play in which an offensive indicates an apparent attempt to pass block but the play ultimately becomes a run.


(5) On a running play, A1 is line up in the backfield at the snap and subsequently chops a defensive player engaged above the waist by A2, and such block occurs on or behind the line of scrimmage in an area extending laterally to the positions originally occupied by the tight end on either side>

(6) On a running play, A1, an offensive lineman, chops a defensive player after the defensive player has been engaged by A2 (high or low), and the initial alignment of A2 is more than one position away from A1. This rule only applies when the block occurs at a time when the flow of the play is clearly away from A1.

(7) On a kicking play, A1 chops a defensive player while the defensive player is physically engaged by the blocking attempt of A2.

(8) On a kickng play in which A2 physically engages a defensive player with a block attempt, A1 chops the defensive player after the contact by A2 has been broken and while A2 is still confronting the defensive player.

(9) On a kicking play, A1 chops a defensive player while A2 confronts the defensive player in a kick blocking posture but is not physically engaged with the defensive player (a "lure").

(10) On a kicking play, A1 blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and A2 simultaneously or immediately after the block by A1, engage the defensive player high.


Note: Each of the above circumstances in subsections (7) through (10), which describes a chop block foul on a kicking play, also applies on a play in which the offensive player indicates an apparent attempt to kck protect, but the play ultimately becomes a run.


Penalty: For Chop Block: Loss of 15 yards.

[KYPack]

Sheezus, Woodbuck.

Who wrote that article, Walter Camp?