D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

[sharpe1027]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

I do agree with that, but I would argue all of his miscalculations have centered around Harrell. KGB pulling a disappearing act during an off season (after all, he had a sack against the Giants, didn't he?), Jolly's problem so close to camp, Jenkins being lost for most of the season, Pickett having an off year were hardly things to be expected. I see no miscalculation relating to those. The miscalculation with Harrell was made in 2007. Once that was done, he did not make another mistake in 2008, but he suffered from the one in 2007.

I think you have a good basis for your opinion, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that:

KGB's disappearing act did not come out of left field. He was OK last year, but looking back I think a good argument could be made that he had lost half a step even then.

Jolly's legal problems are a too convenient of an excuse, is it fair to blame them for his play? Early in the year he looked better and that is when the legal problems were probably more of a distraction.

Pickett is currently playing at about the level he was before he came to Green Bay. Is it more reasonable to assume that last year was an indicator what to expect or his prior years? It is at least arguable.

As for Jenkins being injured, TT should have expected at least one injury.

I just don't think it is as clear-cut of an issue as your posts suggest.

[RashanGary]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

I think you have a good basis for your opinion, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that:

KGB's disappearing act did not come out of left field. He was OK last year, but looking back I think a good argument could be made that he had lost half a step even then.

Jolly's legal problems are a too convenient of an excuse, is it fair to blame them for his play? Early in the year he looked better and that is when the legal problems were probably more of a distraction.

Pickett is currently playing at about the level he was before he came to Green Bay. Is it more reasonable to assume that last year was an indicator what to expect or his prior years? It is at least arguable.

As for Jenkins being injured, TT should have expected at least one injury.

I just don't think it is as clear-cut of an issue as your posts suggest.

Good post. I blame TT for this one and wouldn't give him more than two years to fix it.

[gex]

Re: TT

Patler- your defense of Teddy while a noble attempt is nothing more than BS and it all falls apart going back to one particular game. You claim Teddy could'nt have known about the d-lines weakness yet what the hell was the NFC championship game?

That game was a PROVEN fact that we could not stop the run and we could not apply pressure. It is the reason we did not advance to the SB. So Teddy had the proof right in front of his nose and what happened? NOTHING! That is the part that cannot be refuted, lied about or just looked over.

Are you gonna tell me no one in that organization thought that Mr Harrell might spend the off-season eating himself into a frenzy? Since it was already known he had a poor work ethic it was the man in charge who is responsible for seeing potential problems and Teddy did nothing. I won't argue what a horrible pick it was since the facts are all in and arguing it would be a waste of space on your part.

I also will not debate the merits of trading Mr Williams. I will however say that he was an important part of the rotation and as per usual in the Thompson era, he makes a move without having a back-up plan in place.

We all know Cullen Jenkins has a difficult time staying healthy and he does not have the ability to play well when hurt. Counting on him playing a full season healthy was nothing more than wishful thinking and a GM does not have that luxury.

KGB is a speed rusher. It's the only thing he does. Any competent GM would know that as speed rushers age, they lose quickness and since they have no other talent to counter that loss, is'nt it foolish to depend on them? Should'nt there have been a "what if" scenario in place?

Now Mr Jolly. Why would any competent GM go into a season counting on a guy that more than likely is gonna do some time? Would'nt you kind off expect his play to drop off considering the thought of jail time in Texas just might be a very unpleasent thought?

No, you can make up all the excuses you want (and that is exactly what you have done) in order to cover up for our brain-dead GM. Funny how last season, all the Thompson backers wanted the credit going to Teddy yet now as the free-fall continues, those same people have all kinds of excuses for him. I would warrant that as a tad hypocritical. It's a results orientated business and Teddy has failed big-time- a FACT that more and more fans and writers are seeing.

Excellent analysis!

[Patler]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

I think you have a good basis for your opinion, but to play devil's advocate, I would say that:

KGB's disappearing act did not come out of left field. He was OK last year, but looking back I think a good argument could be made that he had lost half a step even then.

Jolly's legal problems are a too convenient of an excuse, is it fair to blame them for his play? Early in the year he looked better and that is when the legal problems were probably more of a distraction.

Pickett is currently playing at about the level he was before he came to Green Bay. Is it more reasonable to assume that last year was an indicator what to expect or his prior years? It is at least arguable.

As for Jenkins being injured, TT should have expected at least one injury.

I just don't think it is as clear-cut of an issue as your posts suggest.

KGB had 9.5 sacks and 23.5 hurries in '07, better numbers than he had put up in the two previous seasons. He had a sack and a half in the two playoff games. I'm not sure how there were any negatives or warning signs from that performance. Even if he was just OK in your evaluation, he was better than he had been in quite a while.

Jolly, who knows? My only point was that for two season he seemed to improve. Why wouldn't you expect him to play at least as well in year 3? I don't know if it was just a slump, his legal problems or what. Whatever is the cause, there was no reason to expect it.

As for Jenkins injury, all TT can do is try to continue to build depth everywhere and anywhere when he can. You might think that you are likely to lose a player early somewhere, no reason to expect it to be Jenkins anymore than Kampman. He ended '07 with three experienced DEs in Kampman, Jenkins and KGB, a couple holdover #4 guys in Hunter and Montgomery, and he moved up to draft one for the future. I'm not sure why he should have realized that was not good enough. After Jenkins was IR'ed KGB was ineffective and at least 2 of the other 3 were hurt, too. He was on his 7th DE when he had to sign Pettway just to have a warm body that could play the position. Then he got hurt, too. Montgomery has missed games, Thompson has missed games, Hunter has missed games, KGB is gone, Pettway and Jenkins are on IR. How many DEs was he supposed to have?

The year before he came to GB, Pickett was pretty good, and he continued that his first two years in GB. He just turned 29 in October, why shouldn't he play as well as he had for the last 3 or more seasons? Actually, I don't think he was ever bad in St. Louis. he was just lumped in with an overall under performing line of high draft picks. I don't think there is really a big issue with him this year either. He hasn't been all that bad, not his best, but not a big deal.

[sharpe1027]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

KGB had 9.5 sacks and 23.5 hurries in '07, better numbers than he had put up in the two previous seasons. He had a sack and a half in the two playoff games. I'm not sure how there were any negatives or warning signs from that performance. Even if he was just OK in your evaluation, he was better than he had been in quite a while.

Jolly, who knows? My only point was that for two season he seemed to improve. Why wouldn't you expect him to play at least as well in year 3? I don't know if it was just a slump, his legal problems or what. Whatever is the cause, there was no reason to expect it.

As for Jenkins injury, all TT can do is try to continue to build depth everywhere and anywhere when he can. You might think that you are likely to lose a player early somewhere, no reason to expect it to be Jenkins anymore than Kampman. He ended '07 with three experienced DEs in Kampman, Jenkins and KGB, a couple holdover #4 guys in Hunter and Montgomery, and he moved up to draft one for the future. I'm not sure why he should have realized that was not good enough. After Jenkins was IR'ed KGB was ineffective and at least 2 of the other 3 were hurt, too. He was on his 7th DE when he had to sign Pettway just to have a warm body that could play the position. Then he got hurt, too. Montgomery has missed games, Thompson has missed games, Hunter has missed games, KGB is gone, Pettway and Jenkins are on IR. How many DEs was he supposed to have?

The year before he came to GB, Pickett was pretty good, and he continued that his first two years in GB. He just turned 29 in October, why shouldn't he play as well as he had for the last 3 or more seasons? Actually, I don't think he was ever bad in St. Louis. he was just lumped in with an overall under performing line of high draft picks. I don't think there is really a big issue with him this year either. He hasn't been all that bad, not his best, but not a big deal.

Personally, I'm also of the mind that Pickett played pretty well this year. I think fault of the the horrid run defense lies elsewhere (losses at DE and MLB). So I'll agree with Pickett on the that basis.

IMO, KGB's play was a result of a limited number snaps with a good DE playing in front of him. In no way should he have been expected to start significant minutes.

What I really think it boils down to is that, other than Jenkins and Kampman, I don't think there was anybody on the roster that could have been expected to play significant minutes at DE. Thus, the team was one injury away from a huge step down in production.

That being said, in the modern era, I do not believe that there is a way to cover every contingency. Therefore, a GM has to role the dice on some positions/players. As an example, TT built up a lot of depth at DB and they needed and used ever bit of that depth. He also has good depth at WR and decent depth at LB.

[texaspackerbacker]

Patler, you do a helluva lot better job of analyzing than most of the jokers who get paid to do it.

A few odds and ends here:

This thread is the first I heard Woodson's contract is up. Is that true?

Harrell's pre-draft injury--the torn bicep thing--is NOT among the several post-draft problems he's had--and thus, was more a matter of bad luck that couldn't have been anticipated.

Yes, Thompson DOES need to conduct pretty much the same analysis Patler did going into next season. I think he will (and should) conclude that most of what we have now is serviceable, and barring injuries--a HUGE stipulation--we should return to at least the performance level of '07 in '09.

Just the same, I will depart from my usual staunch opposition to big money free agent signings, and advocate making a serious run for Julious Peppers. If ever there was a prospect to do what Reggie White did, Peppers would be it.

[esoxx]

Only the most extreme TT apologist would think the D-line failure is not TT's culpability....this year. Shamrock fits the bill.

[Deputy Nutz]

The defensive line fell apart in a couple of ways. One, injuries. When Hawk is playing WLB behind Jenkins he plays damn good football. No Jenkins Hawk gets handled by linemen. I noticed this when KGB would line up and teams would run the ball to that side. Again I saw this with Montgomery, and Thompson. There is no strength at the point of attack which allows linemen an fullbacks to reach the second level on our linebackers that play 6 yards off the ball which leads me to my next complaint, the defensive alignment. The Packers are getting gashed on misdirection an on the cutback. It seems teams are committing less blockers to the d-line an get more blockers to the second level with longer developing running plays away the center of the line.

Pickett hasn't played that bad, Jolly's play has slipped, but before he got hurt Barnett was playing poorly, and now Hawk is playing poorly in the middle. Both Hawk and Barnett are above average football players, it seems that teams have figured out the same scheme run by the Packers and have game planned effectively. Same goes for the pass rush. The Packers are not a good blitzing team, but I never see zone blitzes, I hardly ever see twists, or stunts on the d-line.

I said it before without ever adding veterans, quality NFL players to the roster the defensive line has to make due with players that are only ready for JV competition rather than varsity. That was my issue with the trade of Williams. He was a proven NFL football player, we traded him basically for a player in Harrell and his "potential" in 2008. He certainly did not make enough plays in 2007 to count on him for quality snaps in 2008, regardless of his draft status. The same could be said for KGB. He was not having a good season, but he was cut for future potential. KGB still gave us more of a pass rush then Pettway, Hunter, or Montgomery. He was already paid for this year.

[Fritz]

I would add that had TT given Williams the big, big contract he wanted, and given the way he has played in Cleveland this year, you'd have a salary cap that would be much tighter, thus putting at risk Jennings/Collins/ maybe Albert Haynesworth.

People here often seem to act like...well, fans. They want TT to have foreseen all the problems that occurred, to have invited Favre (and his salary) back, and to have kept Williams and given him a big contract. It's really hard to say whether this team would have improved enough to have won, say, two more games than they have given the addition of those two players. On top of that, you'd have a serious question as to whether Rodgers would be able to be kept, and you'd have serious issues trying to sign Collins and Jennings, much less go after an Albert Haynesworth.

Sometimes I am reminded of sports talk radio, where some guy will call up and say "I don't know why they don't trade that utility infielder we have for Albert Pujols. Stupid GM - we need a first baseman!"

[Deputy Nutz]

Fritz, I don't disagree, I thought the second round pick for Williams was great, I didn't much care for the pick of Brohm considering Thompson and McCarthy had put all of their eggs in the Rodgers' basket.

Anyways, again Thompson may of been gearing up for the 2008 free agent market with Haynesworth and Peppers, but I don't think so, I think he actually thought Harrell was going to contribute, and that a slew of ends named Montgomery, Hunt, and Thompson were capable of playing in the NFL. Mind you both the 1st and 2nd defensive ends went down, but it is not like Jenkins, or KGB were world beaters at the end of 2007.

It just seems that everything that Thompson has done up until this point has been for the future outside of the Woodson signing and the Pickett signing. Signings that if he didn't make he would have been run out of town. The Packers were desperate for a corner, and a defensive tackle. It seems at only times of desperation does Thomson go out an sign a player outside of his own. I still admit that the last two years there wasn't much in the terms of free agent. There wasn't a player that I thought the Packers were in desperate need of that was available.

But now I think the Packers are desperate for another game changer at defensive end, and another solid body in the interior.

[RashanGary]

It just seems that everything that Thompson has done up until this point has been for the future outside of the Woodson signing and the Pickett signing. Signings that if he didn't make he would have been run out of town. The Packers were desperate for a corner, and a defensive tackle. It seems at only times of desperation does Thomson go out an sign a player outside of his own. I still admit that the last two years there wasn't much in the terms of free agent. There wasn't a player that I thought the Packers were in desperate need of that was available.

But now I think the Packers are desperate for another game changer at defensive end, and another solid body in the interior.

Very astute observation. I agree. He seems to only truely use free agency in times of desperation. He's also been a pretty big fan of the superstuds. Say what you will about Arrington, but he was an elite talent for a little while. Woodson is elite. Vinitari, eltite kicker. Moss, elite. Gonzo, elite.

Haynesworth = elite IMO = TT will have interest
Our DL = Desperation IMO = TT will consider truely using UFA
Many teams without money = Our team has a lot of it = we should be one of a few teams in the AH sweepstakes


I think you make a great observation. Using that observation and a few other things I've observed from TT, I think we're going to make a strong push for AH. We'll see though. We'll see. As much as TT is not a mega dabbler in free agency, I think all of the stars are aligned on this one. I think it would be IN his M.O. to make a spash this offseason.

[Rastak]

I didn't realize Peppers was only 28 right now. If TT wanted to kick ass he'd blow his wad on both. The Pack has more money than god as far as the cap goes.

[RashanGary]

I didn't realize Peppers was only 28 right now. If TT wanted to kick ass he'd blow his wad on both. The Pack has more money than god as far as the cap goes.

Peppers will be franchised. Not worth the picks and the mega contract.

AH will be a monster contract, but we'll be able to keep our high picks we we can aquire more top end young talent along with the elite DLineman.

[Rastak]

I didn't realize Peppers was only 28 right now. If TT wanted to kick ass he'd blow his wad on both. The Pack has more money than god as far as the cap goes.

Peppers will be franchised. Not worth the picks and the mega contract.

AH will be a monster contract, but we'll be able to keep our high picks we we can aquire more top end young talent along with the elite DLineman.

Teddy wouldn't give up picks, that's true.

[digitaldean]

I do blame TT for some of the line woes, due in part to drafting Justin Harrell, who has yet to make an impact.

Considering that pick could have been for a bookend DE vs. our current paperweight, it bothers me.

Kampy played like a maniac last year. Williams played well, but he took plays off. KGB was a year older, plus was still a lightweight vs. the run.

To expect better things from the same group is puzzling at best, but really borders on maddening.

TT needs to pick a pure stud in the draft for d-line, especially if we have a top 10 first pick (plus if a lot of juniors do come out). I don't want to see any trades out of the first round. If he wants IMMEDIATE help (which he needs to keep from this same record next year), he will need to hit his top picks, plus 1-2 FA's.