A new wrinkle for the 3-4 defense?

[Deputy Nutz]

The ravens play a lot of man. The pats used to before the bump rule became more strict.

It's not new. The only corner on our roster that is more man than anything is Harris and he's too old to make a full change for.

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

Only a useless poster would continue to post the same idea over and over again in different threads. Bush has had his shot, sure. Lee was drafted for his potential in the second round, he is developing a bit slower but certainly will play into the plans of the Packers at some point. Blackmon was a receiver his senior year at Boston College, he has yet to fully develop as a defensive back, plus add in the injuries, he is a fantastic athlete and I agree, he might never develop his potential as a defensive back, but this guy will have a spot on this team because of his potential as a kick returner. He is dynamic.

According to your quick assumption about players, we probably should have given up on Collins as well.

[3irty1]

I think its entirely possible Patler. For one this isn't the first time Capers has been charged with turning around this type of defense. I have to imagine that the Guys the Dolphins had under Jim Bates were also used to playing physical man coverage. With the level our guys play at I'm sure Capers had all kinds of ideas in his head before he even set foot in Green Bay.

Most of us here wondered why we didn't blitz more when we had the ability to play reliable man coverage. Maybe Capers will finally use this to his advantage.

[Patler]

A big part of Capers appeal to me is that he's going to be unpredictable. Sometimes you'll see man. Sometimes you'll see zone. We're not going to make it easy on the play caller and QB by running almost all man. That goes against everything Capers talked about "being unpredictable" when he got here.

We don't have to abandon zone or even avoid it. Our two best corners (Woodson and Williams) can play both. Our best man corner (Harris) is 34 years old. Our other corners are awful at man (don't know about zone).

We obviously disagree about how bad the back end is so you think playing a lot of man to take advantage of the talent we have is a good idea.

I think the real talent we have can play either. Harris can't, but he's old. I think the other talent is not there so go with what Capers wants to run. There is only one player good enough to make that adjustment for and that is Harris but he's too damn old.

I'll bet Capers runs less than EDIT half man.

Good God, I'm sorry I even brought this up. You seem to want to argue that the current group can be conformed into tradition 3-4 schemes. Great. Wonderful. They probably can. I never said they couldn't. But what does that get you?

All I was suggesting is that Capers is going to have a little different group of DBs than most would have, and this might let him be creative in ways that you and I have not thought of. That is all I was suggesting. It might not be in just what he does with the DBs, but in how he incorporates that with other aspects of the defense. He may not use man more often, but he may be able to use it in situations that other 3-4 teams do not, because the other teams do not have the same skill level at man coverages as the Packers have.

If the man coverage skills of the Packers allow them to use man coverages in certain blitz packages that other 3-4 teams do not, that gives the Packers an advantage, and puts them a step ahead of the offensive coordinators for a while.

[KYPack]

You know, all blitz cover was man for many years. LeBeau and Capers pioneered playing zone behind the blitz and created (duh) the zone blitz.

Blitz cover (the old style) was all man and was very aggressive. The idea was to cover much tighter, in fact fronting some of the recievers. The QB is pressured to throw early, so you cover the outlet guys. This works real good if the blitzers get through. If they all get picked up, you are in a world of hurt in man behind the blitz.

Caper likes to send 5 in a fire zone. His cover is a 3-3. The up 3 pick up the hooks & blitz control routes and the back 3 protect the deep routes and prevent long tosses. The shallow guys include one or more DLineman. The deep 3 are 2 corners and a safety or 2S's and one corner.

As far as using a man cover behind the blitzs, my first reaction is why? If we can make the 3-3 work, I don't see the percentage in playing man.

Could ya do it?

Sure.

[Gunakor]

You know, all blitz cover was man for many years. LeBeau and Capers pioneered playing zone behind the blitz and created (duh) the zone blitz.

Blitz cover (the old style) was all man and was very aggressive. The idea was to cover much tighter, in fact fronting some of the recievers. The QB is pressured to throw early, so you cover the outlet guys. This works real good if the blitzers get through. If they all get picked up, you are in a world of hurt in man behind the blitz.

Caper likes to send 5 in a fire zone. His cover is a 3-3. The up 3 pick up the hooks & blitz control routes and the back 3 protect the deep routes and prevent long tosses. The shallow guys include one or more DLineman. The deep 3 are 2 corners and a safety or 2S's and one corner.

As far as using a man cover behind the blitzs, my first reaction is why? If we can make the 3-3 work, I don't see the percentage in playing man.

Could ya do it?

Sure.

The point is to find a use for Al that plays to his strengths. Which is why I suggested a man/zone scheme where Al doesn't have to drop into zone very often, and the other cover guys would drop into a zone around him and the guy he's in man coverage with. You could still vary the blitzes to cause confusion up front, and mix different zone coverages around Al to confuse the quarterback. It's not really a new idea...

[Patler]

You know, all blitz cover was man for many years. LeBeau and Capers pioneered playing zone behind the blitz and created (duh) the zone blitz.

Blitz cover (the old style) was all man and was very aggressive. The idea was to cover much tighter, in fact fronting some of the recievers. The QB is pressured to throw early, so you cover the outlet guys. This works real good if the blitzers get through. If they all get picked up, you are in a world of hurt in man behind the blitz.

Caper likes to send 5 in a fire zone. His cover is a 3-3. The up 3 pick up the hooks & blitz control routes and the back 3 protect the deep routes and prevent long tosses. The shallow guys include one or more DLineman. The deep 3 are 2 corners and a safety or 2S's and one corner.

As far as using a man cover behind the blitzs, my first reaction is why? If we can make the 3-3 work, I don't see the percentage in playing man.

Could ya do it?

Sure.

The point sometimes is to do the unexpected, even if it isn't "new" in a strict sense of the word. If it isn't common now, it is "new" even if it was common 25 years ago. After all, this whole 4-3 to 3-4 to 4-3 now back to 3-4 has gone through many cycles already just in my time (and yours! )

[RashanGary]

Patler,

I watched Blackmon play an invisible version of defense all last year and each and every game I heard about how he was doing a good job. The guy has never made a play (sorry, 1 pass defended in two years). The point is that he's really, really, really consistently bad. If you could put his film in, you'd see the same thing every time. Blackmon backpeddals, making sure to not get beat deep, WR cuts, makes catch, Blackmon tackles. He never challenges the ball. Never makes a play.

It got very frustrating. Bush is no better. Lee, who knows, maybe. The guy wasn't very good at Auburn from what I read. I don't get it. I took that frustration out here, but those guys stink.

I'm a big Tramon fan. I wouldn't be shocked if he made a probowl or two. Woodson is great. Harris is one of the best one trick ponies to play the position, but I see our depth as horrendous and Harris makes coverages very predictable so he's losing his value because good teams know what's coming and victimize him. I really hope this Underwood kid pans out because we're going to need him (or someone other than the jokers on the back end of this roster) sooner than later.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think some of you are looking at this defense as one demensional, looking at the defensive coaching staff as one demensional. It is my belief that Dom Capers was brought in to utilize the best out each and every one of his players.

Harris excels at man coverage, only a half ass defensive coordinator would claim that it is "my way or the highway." especially this year with such a transition with the 3-4. Harris is still going to be a valuable part to this defense. He isn't a moron either, a lot of his mistakes were miscommunications when the Packers had two young safeties two young linebackers and relatively incompetent defensive coordinator. Harris can play zone he is just superior man to man corner. You take advantage of that if you are a defensive coordinator.

[mission]

Patler -- I appreciate you bringing it up, JH is just excited. That's fine.

Um, I love the idea and hope that it goes down like this. I'd rather have our scheme mold to our team than have guys who aren't maybe the top players in there because they're better at a certain something. Hopefully Capers holds true to his word and stays flexible all season long

[rbaloha1]

Having Blackmon at corner is like playing with 10 and half guys. The half of him that is supposed to cover isn't there but the half of him that is supposed to tackle is. He cannot see the field and with Capers having a lot of experience with secondaries, I don't think he will. I think Capers will spot it immediately.

Blackmon is like Hester -- move him to receiver. Bet he makes an excellent slot. Played wr his senior year I believe.

Give Lee a chance.

[Lurker64]

Blackmon is like Hester -- move him to receiver. Bet he makes an excellent slot. Played wr his senior year I believe.

Wasn't Hester moved to receiver out of desperation, i.e. they didn't have any other WRs so why not try out the guy who's dangerous when he has the ball. The last thing we need is more wide receivers. Blackmon is fine as a KR who is somewhere in the DB rotation, and that's where he's most useful.

There isn't any evidence that Hester is any good as a receiver anyway.

[rbaloha1]

Blackmon is like Hester -- move him to receiver. Bet he makes an excellent slot. Played wr his senior year I believe.

Wasn't Hester moved to receiver out of desperation, i.e. they didn't have any other WRs so why not try out the guy who's dangerous when he has the ball. The last thing we need is more wide receivers. Blackmon is fine as a KR who is somewhere in the DB rotation, and that's where he's most useful.

There isn't any evidence that Hester is any good as a receiver anyway.

Hester is improving as per Jaws during the Draft show.

The issue is not desperation -- Blackmon is terrible as a db. The Packers have larger long stride receivers. Blackmon compliments and imo would be a wonderful slot.

[SnakeLH2006]

The ravens play a lot of man. The pats used to before the bump rule became more strict.

It's not new. The only corner on our roster that is more man than anything is Harris and he's too old to make a full change for.

Blackmon and Bush are useless. I think Lee is useless. I'm all about scrapping those jokers.

Only a useless poster would continue to post the same idea over and over again in different threads. Bush has had his shot, sure. Lee was drafted for his potential in the second round, he is developing a bit slower but certainly will play into the plans of the Packers at some point. Blackmon was a receiver his senior year at Boston College, he has yet to fully develop as a defensive back, plus add in the injuries, he is a fantastic athlete and I agree, he might never develop his potential as a defensive back, but this guy will have a spot on this team because of his potential as a kick returner. He is dynamic.

According to your quick assumption about players, we probably should have given up on Collins as well.

Pretty much that. Snake ain't sold on Blackmon as a CB, yet he might have potential (and just beasts as a PR) so why get rid of him JH? Makes no F'n sense. As far as Lee (WTF are you smoking), that kid played one year...ONE, yet you see him as useless? Took Collins what, 4 years to make an impact, and most rookie CB's or even DB's struggle to acclimate to the schemes (as it's proven to be the toughest position outside of QB to learn). Lee (have no idea if he's boom or bust) but let's see what a 2nd year makes before you throw him into the JH Hall O' Shame. BTW, isn't your screenname JH...didn't you learn anything?

[packrulz]

The Packers won't be lining up in the 3-4 all the time, they will also line up in the 4-3 from time to time.

[Fritz]

A big part of Capers appeal to me is that he's going to be unpredictable. Sometimes you'll see man. Sometimes you'll see zone. We're not going to make it easy on the play caller and QB by running almost all man. That goes against everything Capers talked about "being unpredictable" when he got here.

We don't have to abandon zone or even avoid it. Our two best corners (Woodson and Williams) can play both. Our best man corner (Harris) is 34 years old. Our other corners are awful at man (don't know about zone).

We obviously disagree about how bad the back end is so you think playing a lot of man to take advantage of the talent we have is a good idea.

I think the real talent we have can play either. Harris can't, but he's old. I think the other talent is not there so go with what Capers wants to run. There is only one player good enough to make that adjustment for and that is Harris but he's too damn old.

I'll bet Capers runs less than EDIT half man.

Good God, I'm sorry I even brought this up. You seem to want to argue that the current group can be conformed into tradition 3-4 schemes. Great. Wonderful. They probably can. I never said they couldn't. But what does that get you?

All I was suggesting is that Capers is going to have a little different group of DBs than most would have, and this might let him be creative in ways that you and I have not thought of. That is all I was suggesting. It might not be in just what he does with the DBs, but in how he incorporates that with other aspects of the defense. He may not use man more often, but he may be able to use it in situations that other 3-4 teams do not, because the other teams do not have the same skill level at man coverages as the Packers have.

If the man coverage skills of the Packers allow them to use man coverages in certain blitz packages that other 3-4 teams do not, that gives the Packers an advantage, and puts them a step ahead of the offensive coordinators for a while.

Coupla things. First, as far as Patler's original question, I would say that I sincerely hope that Capers will tweak the defense to the strengths of his team. In my own opinion, that's what makes a good coach a good coach. Sure, you try to acquire players to fit the system you like, but Capers is not in the player acquisition part of the organization. He's got a bunch of guys who've been trained to play the mano-a-mano and do it rather well. So I do hope he plays to those strengths. That's what would be gained by such a move, KY.

As for how new this might be, if as JH suggests, Capers plays "less than half man," I suggest this new defense be called the "Hermaphrodite" defense. Or, if it's simply an experiment for Capers, it could be called the "bi-curious" defense.