A new wrinkle for the 3-4 defense?

[pbmax]

Now this is a thread. Good job Patler!

Capers said during his introductory press conference that when they were known as Blitzburgh, they were actually blitzing on less than 30% of their plays. So even if, as KYP pointed out, that they continue to use the same 3-3 Zone coverage when blitzing, that leaves a lot of leeway even if you assume he doesn't throw in something new as his base pass coverage.

It has also been revealed that the 3-3 zone is favored on earlier downs even for an expected run play as it puts everyone's eyes on the backfield and helps to prevent long runs.

So my guess is that Al will get to play more man as his front 7 gets better at defending the run. Then when you've got a passing down, the game is on.

And I do not think it will be impossible for Al to play zone. He has largely been asked to cover man since his days in Philly. With training, he will adjust better than he has in the past when zone has been thrown in as situation specific coverage. The more he plays it, the better he gets.

As for Blackmon, JH, the exact kinds of plays you expect him to make (jump routes, attack the ball, get out of the backpedal earlier) are all things that are young players struggle with. When they anticipate with little experience, they are just guessing. His plays on the ball/route/receiver will increase with more playing time. As the return man, he is going to get that chance.

[ND72]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Underwood play. OSU thought of him as their best corner prospect before the injuries mounted and the academic issue came up. OSU does a great job training and turning out NFL corners. This guy has had a couple good years of training.

He also had a good year Cincinnati last year.


I look forward to seeing how he develops. We're going to need another legit prospect to go along with Tramon. Right now we just don't have one.

#1 - Nobody has any idea what Lee can do. Given his opportunities to learn, I still think he's going to come through more and more this year into next year.

#2 - Underwood....will play safety. He struggles to cover Middle School receivers, unless he is a full fledged zone, then he's ok, cause the dude can't move laterally or in a back pedal at all. And yes, I know...I've read plenty, and watched ton of file footage of him getting double moved out of his socks, time and time again.

[KYPack]

Coupla things. First, as far as Patler's original question, I would say that I sincerely hope that Capers will tweak the defense to the strengths of his team. In my own opinion, that's what makes a good coach a good coach. Sure, you try to acquire players to fit the system you like, but Capers is not in the player acquisition part of the organization. He's got a bunch of guys who've been trained to play the mano-a-mano and do it rather well. So I do hope he plays to those strengths. That's what would be gained by such a move, KY.

As for how new this might be, if as JH suggests, Capers plays "less than half man," I suggest this new defense be called the "Hermaphrodite" defense. Or, if it's simply an experiment for Capers, it could be called the "bi-curious" defense.

Firstly, "mano-a-mano" means 'hand to hand' not man to man & I'd hope we at least do some of that this season.
Dom Capers is a flat out brilliant DC. He will take our guys and put them in the best positions to cover and make plays, know that.

A lot will be gained by junking the previous system. We did NOT play man to man last year. It was more of a "box and 2" type thing. The corners played up and in press cover. The other 5 were in a zone system. The LB's were deep and sheltered inside the DE's, with the safeties in the middle of the field and half deep. With 2 safeties deep, it was a bastardized type of cover 2. Last year, Sanders made the radical move of moving one safety over to give Al some help against the bigger WR's. But everybody, from Cris Collinsworth on down the line, called it man. But it wasn't. It was a type of zone. Harris and Wood were playing virtual man, with the rest of the cover guys in a 5 man zone.

That all changes with Capers coming to town. However, the base look will make everybody real comfortable right from the jump. Both corners are right up in the WR's face in a 1 yard technique. The two OLB's are right at the line and the two ILB's are also much closer to the LOS. The safeties are staggered with one guy in the robber position, ala Polumalu. It's a real aggressive, and requires instant recognition and solid teamwork. When one guy is off or doesn't know exactly what to do, the whole thing falls apart. There are great strengths in this system and big weaknesses, also.

The big area of vulnerability is the seams. There are ready made gashes in this system. The distance between defenders is more than in conventional cover 2's and strong side rotations. The DC's try to disguise these gaps and change things up, but you still get caught from time to time. When you do, it's f'ing ugly.

The idea that we will implement a whole new scheme and also retain some man cover is nutso to me. There is a lot of virtual man in their base cover, but a lot of this D is dictated by the looks. When a blitz happens on Al's opposite side, he has to roll back in the deep 3. I don't give a shit if he is the press cover king. For this D to function, all 11 guys must know instinctively what to do and where to go, personal skills aside.

There will be a transition period, sure. But over time, the guys must learn this D and have all 11 players move as one creature. Otherwise, it won't work.

Fritz, I do like the idea of the "Hermaphrodite" D.

Skin likes it, too.

[Fritz]

Like many, many phrases in any language, literal meanings get lost and new meanings become conventional. This is the case with "mano a mano," which does literally mean "hand to hand" but has taken on the meaning "man to man" in English. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out recently, the word Romeo now refers to a man who is a philanderer, someone adept at romancing women, yet the Shakespearean character was a devoted, loyal romantic.

So, okay. Enough of that. As for the rest, I bow to your expertise on the matter or coverage. I confess to being a mere fan in that realm - I trust your words on the topic.

And I'm glad your like my phraseology.

[cpk1994]

Like many, many phrases in any language, literal meanings get lost and new meanings become conventional. This is the case with "mano a mano," which does literally mean "hand to hand" but has taken on the meaning "man to man" in English. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out recently, the word Romeo now refers to a man who is a philanderer, someone adept at romancing women, yet the Shakespearean character was a devoted, loyal romantic.

So, okay. Enough of that. As for the rest, I bow to your expertise on the matter or coverage. I confess to being a mere fan in that realm - I trust your words on the topic.

And I'm glad your like my phraseology.

This has been "Fritz's Wisdom of the Day".

[Fritz]

Like many, many phrases in any language, literal meanings get lost and new meanings become conventional. This is the case with "mano a mano," which does literally mean "hand to hand" but has taken on the meaning "man to man" in English. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out recently, the word Romeo now refers to a man who is a philanderer, someone adept at romancing women, yet the Shakespearean character was a devoted, loyal romantic.

So, okay. Enough of that. As for the rest, I bow to your expertise on the matter or coverage. I confess to being a mere fan in that realm - I trust your words on the topic.

And I'm glad your like my phraseology.

This has been "Fritz's Wisdom of the Day".

Thank you. Thank you all.

[KYPack]

Fritz, I was more trying to smoke out a "Spanish speaking" member who doesn't post much on here anymore, than call you out. You were right, after all, but that don't count much on PR.

As far as "hand to hand" or 'man to man', what does TT say?

Quote on

Fullback Quinn Johnson of Louisiana State in the fifth. The addition of Johnson speaks directly to the desire to be physical.

"SEC football, you hear a lot about it, but it is a physical league," Thompson said, referring to the Southeastern Conference. "And you watch games like LSU against Alabama, and it's mano-a-mano. He's a very, very effective lead blocker. He's a physical presence. He was a running back who rushed for over 1,000 yards (in high school).

"He's got a skill set, and he's a big, physical guy."

Quote off

TT speaks, case closed.

[Maxie the Taxi]

IMHO in today's game it all starts with pressure on the QB. All you have to do is look at last year's post-season. The teams that got to the QB or at least hurried him the most advanced. We expected it out of Pittsburgh, but Arizona was a surprise...at least to me.

I don't know as much about X's and O's as you guys. In fact, I know next to nothing technical.

But I suspect if the Packers can't pressure the QB this year, it won't make a whole lot of difference whether the corners and safeties are playing man or zone. They'll get smoked.

(Very, very interesting thread, though.)

[mraynrand]

I didn't read all of the thread, so if this is redundant, sorry.

One aspect of bringing pressure that cannot be underestimated is down and distance. If you have 3rd and 7 or more, you can being the extra guy, because you almost assuredly force the QB to take the quick read, the dump off and then all you have to do is make the tackle it's a 5 yard gain and they are punting. You cannot do that on third and short. That's just for third down really. But the obvious point is that you have to stop the run on first and second down (or the pass on first and second down). All the other pressure packages and coverages you are talking about here are a bit different for fist and second and long, because you don't want to give up an easy 5-6 yards on 1st or 2nd down.

[KYPack]

IMHO in today's game it all starts with pressure on the QB. All you have to do is look at last year's post-season. The teams that got to the QB or at least hurried him the most advanced. We expected it out of Pittsburgh, but Arizona was a surprise...at least to me.

I don't know as much about X's and O's as you guys. In fact, I know next to nothing technical.

But I suspect if the Packers can't pressure the QB this year, it won't make a whole lot of difference whether the corners and safeties are playing man or zone. They'll get smoked.

(Very, very interesting thread, though.)

100% right, Maxie.

The old saying is, "It ain't the X's and the O's, it's the Jim's and the Joe's".

Forget all the fancy shit, if you can stop the run and pressure the hell out of the QB, you will have a successful defense.

[Fritz]

Fritz, I was more trying to smoke out a "Spanish speaking" member who doesn't post much on here anymore, than call you out. You were right, after all, but that don't count much on PR.

As far as "hand to hand" or 'man to man', what does TT say?

Quote on

Fullback Quinn Johnson of Louisiana State in the fifth. The addition of Johnson speaks directly to the desire to be physical.

"SEC football, you hear a lot about it, but it is a physical league," Thompson said, referring to the Southeastern Conference. "And you watch games like LSU against Alabama, and it's mano-a-mano. He's a very, very effective lead blocker. He's a physical presence. He was a running back who rushed for over 1,000 yards (in high school).

"He's got a skill set, and he's a big, physical guy."

Quote off

TT speaks, case closed.

Hey, where'd my self esteem go?

Oh, there it is - in the toilet....

Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see if this year's version is or is seen as more physical. As Coach Bo used to say, "Let's smaish 'em in the mouf."

[texaspackerbacker]

I will come down squarely on the Patler side of this.What people seem to forget in knocking Packer Corners is where they rank on the team. Show me a team with 3 better man coverage guys than Woodson, Harris, and Williams. Blackmon as a 4th Corner? I doubt many team have better. The much maligned Bush as a 5th or 6th Corner? I would call the guy borderline adequate. A lot of teams start guys like that. As a 5th or 6th best on the team? What do you expect? And Lee? It's perfectly stupid to write him off as a bust when the jury is still completely out on him. He seems to have potential, and he hasn't had enough time on the field.

Some people in this thread have been spewing the old line that it's all about stopping the run and rushing the passer. No Hell no. What it's all about is keeping the other side out of the end zone and generating turnovers. Bend-don't-break pass coverage is far superior to blitz/sack-blitz/sack-blitz/oops bomb for TD.

I have been saying since day one of the 3-4 YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO STUPIDLY BLITZ-HAPPY AND ZONE COVERAGE just because you use 3-4. It is a great run stopping defense--an area where we were admittedly weak last season. A lot of that run-stopping weakness last season, though, was caused by the injuries that ruined the season. Rushing one LB in the 3-4 does NOT constitute relying on the blitz. It merely disguises where the 4 man rush is coming from. Throw in a 5th pass rusher fairly rarely, fine. You do that in a 4-3 too, depending on the circumstance and opposition. The point is, all of that can be done without departing from the traditional man coverage most of the time concept. And even if Capers, creative genius that we all hope he is, comes up with a tricky zone for change of pace, fine too. I just don't want to see the Packers start relying on zone coverage--and I'm pretty sure they won't.

[mraynrand]

Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see if this year's version is or is seen as more physical. As Coach Bo used to say, "Let's smaish 'em in the mouf."

As Jerry Glandville would say: "I'm all the way up here in the box and I can still hear the smackin'"

[mraynrand]

Bend-don't-break pass coverage is far superior to blitz/sack-blitz/sack-blitz/oops bomb for TD. ... I just don't want to see the Packers start relying on zone coverage--and I'm pretty sure they won't.

I don't see the Packers moving too far away from their press coverage either, but 'bend don't break' pass coverage screams zone.

[Gunakor]

I just don't want to see the Packers start relying on zone coverage--and I'm pretty sure they won't.

I'm pretty sure they will. Eventually. As you say, we have press corners on our roster at the moment. But 2 of those press corners are into the twighlight of their careers, and the guys we draft to replace them are not going to be press corners.

As we move from a hybrid 3-4/4-3 to a more pure 3-4 going forward, I expect to see the exclusive press coverage we've seen for years phazed out in favor of cover 3 type zone coverages. That's not to say we won't ever line our corners up in man coverage, but it's not going to be nearly as often that we do. Once Chuck and Al are done playing then we won't have the 2 best press corners in the NFL anymore.

There's no point in sticking to the press scheme if we don't have the guys to execute that scheme. Tell Tampa's corners to play strictly press and see how good they do. Probably about as well as if you asked our corners to play the Tampa 2. Capers said he's going to mold this defense to fit the strengths of the players, so I'd expect to see plenty of press this year and next given the players we have on our roster. But as TT/MM draft corners who excel in zone, and after Chuck and Al are done playing, molding the defense to the strengths of it's players means we'll be primarily a zone coverage team. And as long as we have the players to execute that zone coverage, there won't be any problem. Right?