Nelson or Jones

[Scott Campbell]

Jones and Nelson will be receivers "3a" and "3b". If both are healthy, I don't expect either one to separate himself form the other. Each will be the third receiver in some situations.

As it stands now, I could see that. But 2nd year receivers often make a big strides. I'd almost rate both of them as 2nd year wideouts, as Jones season seemed kind of wasted last year.

[sharpe1027]

I got the impression that Jordy's play kept Jones from being able to get back on the field much.

I feel that they may have lost confidence after the Bears game and his subesquent injuries gave Nelson the oppurtunity to show he was more than adequate. Rather than pull a solid performer mid-season for a guy that you are unsure of, they left things as they were.

I expect that Jones be given more chances in preseason than he was in the middle of the year. Just a guess.

[Waldo]

If you don't than why are you a Jones fan? It is by far his best trait, the one thing that he is truly elite at. The guy can catch garbage, stuff that none of our other WR's have a chance to catch.

Like I said:

Perhaps Jordy is a better example. Ultra low drop rate. He worked the same area of the field that Jones often does (actually more underneath, Jones' YPR was identical to Driver's in '08 and darn close in '07, Jordy's was lower), Jones' catch % was 69.0% in '08, Jordy's was 62.3%.

Meh, I like him for the reasons I said, he threatens the defense more with big plays getting open downfield or making a play with the ball in his hand. I disagree that his garbage catching is necessarily his best trait, but I think you are perfectly reasonable to believe it is. Perhaps, though, you can see my point that it is also reasonable to believe that it is not, far and way, his best trait.

I guess my point is this. I think that the stat is simply too weakly correlated to prove or disprove your point, i.e., there too many variables unaccounted for to claim that all things being equal, Jones would catch more balls. If my math is correct, two bad passes by Rodgers last year would have resulted in Jones also being at 62%. Moreover, it could be any combination of bad passes, wrong routes, great defensive plays or other things I can't think of right now. Odds are, all things were probably not equal.

I realize you made some general observations about routes and such, but we are talking about a difference of only two passes. Maybe those two passes were the result of Jones making great plays on the ball where Nelson would not have; however, maybe it was just a better pass by Rodgers.

This is actually not an observation based on any stats, it just so happens that stats show it. I always noticed Favre's brand of shit that was supposedly "accurate", and pointed it out to people, and probably notice it quicker because I'm so used to looking at/for it, while everybody else was busy fawning over god, I saw the old man slipping (the decline has been noticable to me since ~2001).

It isn't always easy to identify an inaccurate pass off the television. A ball is either defended, caught, dropped, or misses. A lot more than just the misses are inaccurate. WR's adjust to errant passes. Some are better than others at it. Too many times fans would go gaga over a "great" play by Favre, when in reality he missed by about 10 yards, his WR made a huge adjustment to get to the ball and catch it. Who really made the great play?

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember. With a well thrown ball he was fairly reliable, he was a good blocker and pretty good at getting open. He couldn't catch a crappy pass to save his life, his adjustment ability was terrible. Favre and his coaches though hadn't yet figured out what areas of the field he sucked on, it took MM for that, too often Ferguson was in the area where Brett sucked.

Jones has made some crazy good catches in his time in GB. Huge adjustments that just were not supposed to be caught. Some of the stuff he gets his hands on just isn't supposed to happen.

How many WR's other than Jones have people seen make catches while jumping/laying out for a pass in GB lately?

[CaptainKickass]

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Rolling on the floor, spitting coffee out my nose at that one.

Waldo - You're contributions here have been more than educational for me. And now you wanna branch out into comedy too?

Hahahahaha!

Ok, ok

In all seriousness - I do remember a game, a MNF Game I believe, when Fergie was still in the lineup, where Madden or Al cited some incrdible stat that the Pack was 6-0 when Robert Ferguson catches a TD pass.

I'm no stat guy - but I'm pretty sure he didn't catch much more than 6 TD's. Or is that just a reflection of my lack of faith in that guy? What was his nickname again? "Alligator arms" or something?


.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm not necessarily buying this. A little bit, but not totally. If he started and had to run every route that Jennings has to make against the same level of competition, I doubt that catch % would remain that high.

The other part of this is: he needs to make some great catches because he's not as good at getting in position to make the catch more easily. Reminds me of a centerfielder in baseball who makes a lot of difficult catches, but he has to because he gets a poor jump, is slow, or isn't great at judging the ball in the air. Jennings is elite at that.

I'm not trying to knock Jones too much. I think he has shown he could have great hands, if he quits dropping the easy ones. I think he lacks concentration at times. He also can do some things after the catch. He makes sharp cuts with the ball in his hands--although I think he should be better breaking tackles for how strong he is. If he can utilize his strength a bit more and eliminate the drops, he can be very effective.

I don't buy the insinuation that other guys can't make tough catches either. It might be that Jones just gets more opportunities to make tough catches because of the other factors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIUu-nLx0lw

[sharpe1027]

This is actually not an observation based on any stats, it just so happens that stats show it.

Do they? While the stats are indeed consistent with your observation, I just don't think they add much.

Jones has made some crazy good catches in his time in GB. Huge adjustments that just were not supposed to be caught. Some of the stuff he gets his hands on just isn't supposed to happen.

How many WR's other than Jones have people seen make catches while jumping/laying out for a pass in GB lately?

Not going to argue this, as Jones has shown incredible ability to catch the ball away from his body. I do think that Jennings is better at adjusting to a poorly thrown ball by changing his route. One play stands out. I remember Jones getting turned around and looking pretty foolish trying to adjust to a terribly thrown Favre pass deep down the field.

[CaptainKickass]

I'm not necessarily buying this. A little bit, but not totally. If he started and had to run every route that Jennings has to make against the same level of competition, I doubt that catch % would remain that high.

The other part of this is: he needs to make some great catches because he's not as good at getting in position to make the catch more easily. Reminds me of a centerfielder in baseball who makes a lot of difficult catches, but he has to because he gets a poor jump, is slow, or isn't great at judging the ball in the air. Jennings is elite at that.

I'm not trying to knock Jones too much. I think he has shown he could have great hands, if he quits dropping the easy ones. I think he lacks concentration at times. He also can do some things after the catch. He makes sharp cuts with the ball in his hands--although I think he should be better breaking tackles for how strong he is. If he can utilize his strength a bit more and eliminate the drops, he can be very effective.

I don't buy the insinuation that other guys can't make tough catches either. It might be that Jones just gets more opportunities to make tough catches because of the other factors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIUu-nLx0lw

Harv -

That Youtube vid is pretty cool, although the Queen music is a bit "flamboyant". The best part of the vid is the ending:

"Thanks for not sucking like everyone else did"

Nobody's ready to call this kid "Jerry Rice". If he can put up highlights like that vid, except in the NFL - then he might be pretty damn good. But there's no comparing him to the GOAT at this point.

Is it football season yet?

[Scott Campbell]

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember.

I remember Ferguson being awful as a rookie, but then progressing to adequate and more. And then he took that horrific shot from Darien over the middle, and they guy never looked the same.

[Waldo]

Ferguson was actually a lot better than fans remember.

I remember Ferguson being awful as a rookie, but then progressing to adequate and more. And then he took that horrific shot from Darien over the middle, and they guy never looked the same.

He got the yips. But he wasn't bad out near the edges with well thrown balls.

Brett Favre doesn't throw many well thrown balls out near the edges.

[Patler]

He got the yips. But he wasn't bad out near the edges with well thrown balls.

Brett Favre doesn't throw many well thrown balls out near the edges.

Anybody who lasts any time at that level can catch a well thrown ball. It hardly makes Ferguson better than we remember. In fact, it makes him just as I do remember, a guy that made the easy catch, who would take a hit; until he got the big one. The fact that he wasn't able to get over that hit, even as bad as it was, detracts from his "legacy". Others get over big hits, even if it takes a season to do it. Ferguson never did.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I even got myself a Ferguson jersey before the season of the Darius hit. He certainly never recovered from that shot. Prior to that he was fearless over the middle. While the NFL is certainly violent, I wonder how many players have to recover from a shot like that, which resulted in not only being knocked unconscious, but also temporarily paralysis.

[Bretsky]

I even got myself a Ferguson jersey before the season of the Darius hit. He certainly never recovered from that shot. Prior to that he was fearless over the middle. While the NFL is certainly violent, I wonder how many players have to recover from a shot like that, which resulted in not only being knocked unconscious, but also temporarily paralysis.

Are you drunk again ?

Fergie was Da Fraud Before and After the hit

[bobblehead]

I've seen driver take some sick hits...granted never was paralyzed. Eric Dickerson lost feeling and movement for about 10 minutes once and came back and was still awesome. Fergie flashed brilliance at times, but so did Frankie Neal....if I remember the quote after he scored a game winning touchdown was "Mr. All Pro....Albeerrrtt Lewis" Yea, keep talking frankie.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Are you drunk again ?

Fergie was Da Fraud Before and After the hit

No - Unfortunately they frown upon that at work. Bastards.



I guess I always have a weak spot for the try-hard underdog and love seeing a player who everyone counted out tremendously exceed expectations and perform at a high level. I had hoped that Ferguson would be one of these, but I was certainly wrong on that!

[SnakeLH2006]

Fergie was Da Fraud Before and After the hit

Yeppers...Whoever made Fergy jerseys out to be fired. No really. No place for that guy in the Packer Jersey Authority Department. I'm still waiting on my TJ Rubley jersey I ordered a decade ago.

Other than the Fergie mention by Waldo...Snake is all aboard the Waldo train that JJ makes plays happen (crappy passes, big plays) vs. catching catchable balls and a nil YAC (I read somewhere maybe JSO that it was an abysmal 2 yards after contact) for Jordy. I wanna like Jordy, but I don't see the big play guy. So far, I've seen a faster Ruvell Martin out of Jordy. A guy who makes some easy Red Zone catches, but no plays. Hope I'm wrong as maybe he gets better in year 2.

I have to agree that what I saw on the field was Jones consistently making plays that threaten the defense, whereas Nelson's catches were more mundane plays.

...Yep...about like that...Moving the chains is fine, but those guys don't deserve to start, as they don't do much for elite teams as a #2. Welker is a beast for what he does. Jordy has a long way to go to get there though (albeit totally diff. type of WR). If JJ is healthy, he outta get the nod, as his ability to stretch the D and make plays out of nothing take stature over a sure catch and get tackled....Sanjay Beach comes to mind.