What Caused the Demise of the 60's Packers?

[Freak Out]

Devine was under the sway of Satan and was in place to destroy the Packers....that's the only reason anyone makes that trade.

Loco is right...

[cheesner]

That's my thinking - that Walker, though clearly past his prime, wasn't as far past his prime as Hadl was. He was done like a piece of toast. I can't fathom how Devine coulda even considered such a ridiculous trade.

I did not know he was thinking about getting Manning. What was he prepared to offer? Any details on that story, Waldo?

Oh, man, that would've been great. A whole different Packer history for the 70's and early 80's, perhaps. And maybe better fortunes for Archie, too. Maybe.

Walker was around 25 and only in his 5th season when the trade was done. He was coming off an injury and had a big season (1500ish yards) the season before. He wasn't past his prime, it is just that he had not lived up to the college hype at that point, and as a running back, never really did although he did play a long time and had some decent career stats.

As far as Hadl goes, he was a slightly above average at QB. He wasn't worth the trade value even in his prime.

[Pacopete4]

no good thing can last forever

[CaptainKickass]

Great insight, great Packer Football topic for the offseason.

Mad props to Mad Scientist and his Davros avatar for the link to the Vainisi article. I simply didn't even know.

I can only remember as far back as Eddie Lee Ivory - and I was just a whee lad at the time so I find almost everything regarding the Packers Legends and its history posted on here to be of high edu-tainment value.

We learn from the past, that people seldom learn from the past. So if you want to improve your future - pay attention to your history.


The Captain

[Scott Campbell]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/packers/448144

It bugged me when I first read it, and it bugs me again today. Did you click on the links to the Packers website, and look him up under their HOF inductees? Pretty pathetic. With somebody like Lee Remmel working for them all those years, you'd think they could do these guys justice. Most of the posts in this forum are more thorough.

http://www.packershalloffame.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=62

[pbmax]

Walker was around 25 and only in his 5th season when the trade was done. He was coming off an injury and had a big season (1500ish yards) the season before. He wasn't past his prime, it is just that he had not lived up to the college hype at that point, and as a running back, never really did although he did play a long time and had some decent career stats.

Walker was traded in the middle of his fourth year but he was 27 at the time. He had played a couple of years in the USFL for the New Jersey Generals. He was also a traditional SEC I back, and that was not the offense the Vikings were running at the time (Darrin Nelson anyone? Alfred Anderson?).

The Vikings sank like a stone after this trade, and part of it was fitting Walker into the offense. They rebounded after Walker was gone and they added Terry Allen, among a lot of other changes (Dennis Green era).

[falco]

Shit, I would think at this point old age is starting to become a factor.

[Joemailman]

As great a coach as he was, Lombardi didn't draft very well his last 3-4 years.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...1800&type=team The team got old as a result. It also didn't help that the QB situation after Starr was a horror show for may years.

[falco]

As great a coach as he was, Lombardi didn't draft very well his last 3-4 years.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...1800&type=team The team got old as a result. It also didn't help that the QB situation after Starr was a horror show for may years.

I wonder how different scouting was back in the 60s. I have to imagine that back then there were far fewer players that distinguished themselves as athletes, but more had mental toughness and football smarts.

[pbmax]

As great a coach as he was, Lombardi didn't draft very well his last 3-4 years.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...1800&type=team The team got old as a result. It also didn't help that the QB situation after Starr was a horror show for may years.

I wonder how different scouting was back in the 60s. I have to imagine that back then there were far fewer players that distinguished themselves as athletes, but more had mental toughness and football smarts.

The Steeler drafts in the early 70s were successful to a large degree because they sank a lot of money into sending their own scouts to schools, even the smaller ones. They outworked other teams and did not rely on the Blesto Scouting Service, even though they were a charter member. Other teams caught on (while having their heads beaten in for a decade) and the Scouting services became less important except for the Scouting Combine every year.

Wikipedia: NFL Scouting Combine[/url]]The NFL's first scouting organization, LESTO (Lions Eagles Steelers Talent Organization), was started in 1963 by the teams mentioned in its name. It became BLESTO when the Bears joined the following year and BLESTO-V when the Vikings came on board later in the decade. It is now known simply as BLESTO despite the Bears and Eagles having gone their separate ways.

CEPO (Central Eastern Personnel Organization), formed in 1964, was a joint endeavor between the Colts (Baltimore-based at the time), the original Browns, the Packers and the Cardinals (St. Louis-based at the time). Its name was changed twice, first to United Scouting after the Falcons, Giants and Redskins joined its ranks, then finally to National Football Scouting in 1983 to avoid any confusion associated with the United States Football League, the NFL's direct competitor that began its operations that year. National Football Scouting is now known simply as The National.

Also formed in 1964 was Troika by the Cowboys, Rams (based in Los Angeles at the time) and 49ers. It was renamed Quadra when the Saints joined in 1967. Quadra is no longer in existence.

[The Leaper]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

As I've read...Vainisi wasn't necessarily a guy with a ridiculous eye for talent. He simply developed a SYSTEM before anyone else, one which took the vast amount of information that we see flying around in the spring regarding college players and organized it. He was basically Mel Kiper...but in 1955.

That allowed the Packers to get ahead of the game...but other teams eventually caught up. I think that would've happened even if Vainisi didn't die an untimely death.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Packgator has the right answer. You can't replace Hall of Famers.

I still remember them asking Vince how the team would do with Bengtson. He said the Packers would be all right.

We all knew they wouldn't be because all the stars were aging.

Not only were those teams stocked with Hall of Famers as starters, but they were deep. My memory may be failing me, but guys like Zeke Bratkowski, Elijah Pitts, Tom Moore, Travis Williams, Norm Masters, Bill Curry, Tommy Crutcher, Marv Fleming, and Maxie the Taxi were HUGE factors in backup roles compensating for injuries.

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

[MadScientist]

The death of scout / draft guru Jack Vainisi in 1960 hurt the flow of studs to the Packers.

As I've read...Vainisi wasn't necessarily a guy with a ridiculous eye for talent. He simply developed a SYSTEM before anyone else, one which took the vast amount of information that we see flying around in the spring regarding college players and organized it. He was basically Mel Kiper...but in 1955.

That allowed the Packers to get ahead of the game...but other teams eventually caught up. I think that would've happened even if Vainisi didn't die an untimely death.

I agree up to a point. He did put the Packers ahead of the game and the others were catching up, so it's unlikely that they would have pulled off another multi-HOF draft. But he still did have an eye for talent. He still had to put all the information he gathered together in the right way. I guess I'm saying that the system he developed is a reflection of his eye for talent, extended to an almost mass produced level.

[vince]

Good stuff guys. Thanks. Obviously you gotta have the horses, but I'd attribute half the downfall of the Packers to losing Lombardi.

The foundations of success in football that the Packers dynasty perfected in many ways - dedication, hard work, mastery of fundamentals, understanding and accepting individual responsibilities within the team structure, and of course the skills and ability to execute - was lost after Lombardi left.

I was just born at the time of his death, but like many Packer faithful, I've read the books written about him and watched the numerous video tributes and biographies. In fact, I collect them. His name as my monicker here is my tribute to his contributions not only to Packer history, but to the history of football and of history itself for that matter.

Vince's unique ability as a coach to get maximum performance out of his players - to channel and emit from each player the absolute most he had to give - was perhaps greater than any other coach in history. He used both positive and negative motivational tactics, and he knew how to get a team to gel. His players knew he loved them, and he scared the shit out of them at the same time. He was without a doubt one of the most powerful leaders that has ever lived.

One of Vince's more famous quotes is "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." He made sure that his team would always be the team that was in better shape and had more fight in it at the end of the game. Unlike today, Vince worked his players hard from day 1 of training camp right through the end of the year - particularly at the end of their reign as his core guys were aging. He kept getting his players ready for the "Big Push" over and over throughout the season on their road to their third straight championship in '67. The players recall that every time they thought they had nothing left to give, Vince knew just how to get them to reach deeper to find more and assume their place in history. Playing the games was the easy part.

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

[packrulz]

A lot of the problems had to do with Packers management, they had a board of directors and a president, too many chefs spoil the soup. They hired ex-packers like "Scooter" McLean, Bart Starr, & Forrest Gregg to coach and while popular to fans, they weren't X's & O's type coaches. Bob Harlan was elected president and chief executive officer of Packer Corporation, succeeding Judge Parins (June 5, 1989), and they finally had one man running the show, and that's when they started to become competitive again. Interesting with all those losing seasons they sold out every game and had a waiting list for season tickets.