What Caused the Demise of the 60's Packers?

[hoosier]

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Not to nitpick, but didn't Lombardi die of colon cancer?

[vince]

Yes that's right. My bad.

During the summer, the hearty Lombardi suddenly began to feel less than his vigorous self. He was diagnosed with colon cancer in late June 1970, weeks before training camp for his second season in Washington. Although a long-time sufferer of digestive tract problems, Lombardi had avoided going to the doctor for colonoscopies, and this delay may have hastened his illness and eventual death. He was treated at the Georgetown University Hospital, but by the time it was discovered, the cancer had rapidly spread from his colon to his liver, peritoneum, and lymph nodes. The attending oncologist described it as the most virulent case he had ever witnessed (Maraniss, "When Pride Still Mattered"). He died ten weeks later on September 3, 1970 at the age of 57.

[Scott Campbell]

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

I think expansion is even a bigger factor than free agency. I can't remember how many teams were in the league back then, but with 32 teams chasing the trophy, it's much harder to win one now.

[pbmax]

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

I think expansion is even a bigger factor than free agency. I can't remember how many teams were in the league back then, but with 32 teams chasing the trophy, it's much harder to win one now.

And the number of games prior to the Championship Game. Used to be one step, I believe. Now its 3 games minimum.

[Waldo]

I think that the scouting point played a huge role. Over the years, the teams that were the real scouting powerhouses became powerhouses.

I didn't know that the late 50's Packers were pioneers is systemmatic scouting. Makes sense.

The 70's Steelers powerhouses were built on the back of total scouting saturation, especially at smaller black colleges where many of the players were better than their big college counterparts. Back then scholarship was more important to the big colleges than it is today. On some of the real gems they discovered, they purposely "lost" game tape to prevent other teams from seeing their finds so they could draft them later than they should be.

The 70's Cowboys team that dominated was built on the back of a huge scouting department that would look under any rock. They also were pioneers in the use of measurables to evaluate players.

The 80's 49ers really rose to prominence on the back of their scouting department. Another feature of the early WCO incarnations that isn't talked about much is that Walsh was a huge believer in measurables and sought players with particular measurables for a position (he was a big time position prototype drafter, one of the first, and the first real voice to give credence to the Vertical Jump, not the 40, as the best measurable test as it relates to football). He was heavily involved with the creation of the scouting service NFL Draft Scout after retiring from coaching.

If there is any legacy that Ron Wolf created in GB that continues to this day actually on the team is the scouting department that he built. GB today is one of the most dominant presences in the college player scouting arena, and just like Walsh, TT is a position prototype drafter.

[Fritz]

What a great thread! First, re the "which trade was the worst?" - I do think Walker was past his prime, and Waldo's point was that the Q's gave up so much. I still maintain the Hadl trade was worse - a frickin' 36 year old QB? Now Favre is better than Hadl, but when Favre was 36 would anyone have given up that many picks - what was it, two first rounders and a second and third? for even Favre, much less John Hadl?

The Devine-as-Satan theory seems the only logical explanation. I mean, I was 14 when that trade happened and even I knew then that the Packers were screwed for the next several years. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

As for Vainisi, I like the idea mentioned in the thread here that the guy created a system. That makes sense. However, I don't think Mel Kiper is a good comparison. I don't think Mel Kiper created any system. He just tapped into one of the biggest aspect of fan-hood - hope. He understood that the draft is about hope, and he rode that baby, hard.

As for Lombardi, as great as he was, I'm not sure I'm ready to give him motivational sainthood. I think there have been other great, great coaches over the years, and the truth is that had Lombardi not had the talent he did there wouldn't be a trophy named after him. You've got to know what to do with talent, but you've got to have it first.

BTW, what was the sense of the job he was doing in Washington? I know he was only there one year, but was there a sense he was turning things around?

[hoosier]

As for Lombardi, as great as he was, I'm not sure I'm ready to give him motivational sainthood. I think there have been other great, great coaches over the years, and the truth is that had Lombardi not had the talent he did there wouldn't be a trophy named after him. You've got to know what to do with talent, but you've got to have it first.

BTW, what was the sense of the job he was doing in Washington? I know he was only there one year, but was there a sense he was turning things around?

True, but look at what that talent was doing in GB before Lombardi arrived. Tee tee, very little. Granted, the Packers were still a work in progress, but who's to say they would have gelled if Lombardi hadn't come aboard?

As for what he did with the Redskins in 1969, they improved from 5-9 to 7-5-2. According to Wikipedia he also coaxed Sam Huff out of retirement, whipped Sonny Jergensen into shape, diagnosed RB Larry Brown's deafness and set the stage for George Allen's dominant Skins teams in the 70s.

I know, this all sounds like Vince hagiography. Take it with a grain of salt. But at least they're not claiming he made paraplegics walk again.

After stepping down as head coach of the Packers following the 1967 NFL season, a restless Lombardi returned to coaching in 1969 with the Washington Redskins, where he broke a string of 14 losing seasons. The 'Skins would finish with a record of 7-5-2, significant for a number of reasons. Lombardi discovered that rookie running back Larry Brown was deaf in one ear, something that had escaped his parents, schoolteachers, and previous coaches. Lombardi had observed Brown's habit of tilting his head in one direction when listening to signals being called, and walked behind him during drills and said "Larry". When Brown did not answer, the coach asked him to take a hearing exam. Brown was fitted with a hearing aid, and with this correction he would enjoy a successful NFL career. Lombardi was the first coach to get soft-bellied quarterback Sonny Jurgensen, one of the league's premier forward passers, to get into the best condition he could. He coaxed former All-Pro linebacker Sam Huff out of retirement. He even changed the team's uniform design to reflect that of the Packers, with gold and white trim along the jersey biceps, and later a gold helmet. The foundation Lombardi laid was the groundwork for Washington's early 1970s success under former L.A. Rams Coach George Allen. Lombardi had brought a winning attitude to the Nation's Capital, in the same year that the nearby University of Maryland had hired "Lefty" Driesell to coach basketball and the hapless Washington Senators named Ted Williams as manager. It marked a renaissance in sports interest in America's most transient of cities.

[Fritz]

As for Lombardi, as great as he was, I'm not sure I'm ready to give him motivational sainthood. I think there have been other great, great coaches over the years, and the truth is that had Lombardi not had the talent he did there wouldn't be a trophy named after him. You've got to know what to do with talent, but you've got to have it first.

BTW, what was the sense of the job he was doing in Washington? I know he was only there one year, but was there a sense he was turning things around?

True, but look at what that talent was doing in GB before Lombardi arrived. Tee tee, very little. Granted, the Packers were still a work in progress, but who's to say they would have gelled if Lombardi hadn't come aboard?

As for what he did with the Redskins in 1969, they improved from 5-9 to 7-5-2. According to Wikipedia he also coaxed Sam Huff out of retirement, whipped Sonny Jergensen into shape, diagnosed RB Larry Brown's deafness and set the stage for George Allen's dominant Skins teams in the 70s.

I know, this all sounds like Vince hagiography. Take it with a grain of salt. But at least they're not claiming he made paraplegics walk again.

After stepping down as head coach of the Packers following the 1967 NFL season, a restless Lombardi returned to coaching in 1969 with the Washington Redskins, where he broke a string of 14 losing seasons. The 'Skins would finish with a record of 7-5-2, significant for a number of reasons. Lombardi discovered that rookie running back Larry Brown was deaf in one ear, something that had escaped his parents, schoolteachers, and previous coaches. Lombardi had observed Brown's habit of tilting his head in one direction when listening to signals being called, and walked behind him during drills and said "Larry". When Brown did not answer, the coach asked him to take a hearing exam. Brown was fitted with a hearing aid, and with this correction he would enjoy a successful NFL career. Lombardi was the first coach to get soft-bellied quarterback Sonny Jurgensen, one of the league's premier forward passers, to get into the best condition he could. He coaxed former All-Pro linebacker Sam Huff out of retirement. He even changed the team's uniform design to reflect that of the Packers, with gold and white trim along the jersey biceps, and later a gold helmet. The foundation Lombardi laid was the groundwork for Washington's early 1970s success under former L.A. Rams Coach George Allen. Lombardi had brought a winning attitude to the Nation's Capital, in the same year that the nearby University of Maryland had hired "Lefty" Driesell to coach basketball and the hapless Washington Senators named Ted Williams as manager. It marked a renaissance in sports interest in America's most transient of cities.

On the whole I agree with you, Hoosier. I would only suggest that perhaps part - just part - of the reason the talent wasn't producing before Lombardi arrived is because it was young talent. No doubt in my mind that without Lombardi there would've been no Packer dynasty; I'm only suggesting that success is a combination of hard work, organization, and a combination of circumstances - some of which is good fortune.

But that's not a criticism of Lombardi. Many people have been handed that same combination but could do nothing with it.

I did like the "over-the-hill" gang in the 70's.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Vince, I respect Lombardi as much as anyone. His contribution cannot be denied. He often took players who were unsuccessful or moderately successful on other teams and then they "blossomed" under Lombardi's coaching. Willie Davis was the prime example:

At the time, it was quite likely that the Browns, who had selected Davis in the 15th round of the 1956 draft and intended to use him as an offensive tackle, didn't know what they were giving up. But Packers GM/Head Coach Vince Lombardi apparently knew what he was getting.

Once asked to describe the attributes of a great player, Lombardi said, "You look for speed, agility and size. You may get two of these qualities in one man and when you have three, you have a great player. In Willie Davis, we have a great one. For a big man, 6-3 and 240 pounds, he has excellent agility and he has great sincerity and determination."

And then there was Henry Jordan:

Jordan started his career with the Cleveland Browns as a fifth-round draft pick out of the University of Virginia, and, like Nitschke and Davis, came to the Packers via trade.

In 1959, Lombardi sent a fourth-round pick to the Browns to acquire Jordan in one of his first moves as general manager and head coach.

Standing 6-foot-2 and weighing 248 pounds, Jordan wasn't necessarily a physically intimidating defensive tackle. However, the former collegiate wrestler, who earned runner-up status in the heavyweight class of the 1957 NCAA Championships, used his speed, strength and determination to be a menace in the trenches.

(I'm tempted to say the Cleveland Browns were most responsible for the Packers' success in the 60's )

And then there was Carroll Dale, the unsung hero the Pack picked up from the Rams.

Another of Lombardi's strengths was sizing up a man and then entrusting that man to be "the" man in a certain position. There was Bart Starr, a QB who drifted in an out of the starting lineups of Blackburn and McLean. Lombardi told Starr he was his man at QB and the rest is history:

Standing 6-foot-1 and weighing 197 pounds, Starr wasn't a physically intimidating quarterback, and in the early part of his career he was hardly dominant. In his first five seasons, Starr's interceptions (41) were almost double his touchdowns (23).

But Vince Lombardi's 1959 arrival in Green Bay sparked Starr's dramatic evolution. From studying game tapes of Starr's first three seasons, Lombardi saw potential in the University of Alabama alumnus' mechanics. He also loved Starr's ability to manage a game.

The classic example is Paul Hornung. He was probably the most talented football player on the Packers' roster at several positions (DB, QB and HB) before Lombardi's arrival. Still, he was a man without a position and was ready to hang up his spikes in GB. Lombardi changed all that by entrusting Hornung to the HB position where he flourished:

Primarily a quarterback in college, the 6-foot-2, 215-pound Hornung made his reputation in the NFL as halfback under head coach Vince Lombardi. But as talented as he was carrying the football, Hornung remained dangerous with his arm and was an outstanding lead blocker, receiver and kicker.

(The "dangerous with his arm" thing is a bit exagerated. Hornung's arm was a wet noodle. He was famous for his "Alley Oop" passes to Ron Kramer. It was surprise that made his passing "dangerous."

All that said, Lombardi owes a huge debt of gratitude to Lisle Blackburn and Scooter McLean. Their lousy performances ensured the Pack the cream of the college crop of talent for several years prior to Lombardi's arrival.

Look at all the powerhouses in the NFL of that era, and their powerhouse seasons almost always followed years in the NFL basement. Dallas, Minnesota and Pittsburgh are prime examples.

You need a great driver, but without the horsepower the driver's skills are not as effective. Lombardi found that out with the Gold Dust twins and Bob Long, among others.

A lot of us back then suspected that aging talent and mediocre replacement talent was the main reason Lombardi left Green Bay when he did. That was probably an unfounded suspicion, but it did say something about the state of the Packers as a lot of people assessed it when Lombardi left.

[woodbuck27]

Good stuff guys. Thanks. Obviously you gotta have the horses, but I'd attribute half the downfall of the Packers to losing Lombardi.

The foundations of success in football that the Packers dynasty perfected in many ways - dedication, hard work, mastery of fundamentals, understanding and accepting individual responsibilities within the team structure, and of course the skills and ability to execute - was lost after Lombardi left.

I was just born at the time of his death, but like many Packer faithful, I've read the books written about him and watched the numerous video tributes and biographies. In fact, I collect them. His name as my monicker here is my tribute to his contributions not only to Packer history, but to the history of football and of history itself for that matter.

Vince's unique ability as a coach to get maximum performance out of his players - to channel and emit from each player the absolute most he had to give - was perhaps greater than any other coach in history. He used both positive and negative motivational tactics, and he knew how to get a team to gel. His players knew he loved them, and he scared the shit out of them at the same time. He was without a doubt one of the most powerful leaders that has ever lived.

One of Vince's more famous quotes is "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." He made sure that his team would always be the team that was in better shape and had more fight in it at the end of the game. Unlike today, Vince worked his players hard from day 1 of training camp right through the end of the year - particularly at the end of their reign as his core guys were aging. He kept getting his players ready for the "Big Push" over and over throughout the season on their road to their third straight championship in '67. The players recall that every time they thought they had nothing left to give, Vince knew just how to get them to reach deeper to find more and assume their place in history. Playing the games was the easy part.

Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com?

Yes motivation, conditioning and practise counts a long ways towords consistent winning. Talent has to be qickened and inspired.

On this:

'' Off topic, but it's also interesting to note the dramatic cultural changes that have taken place in the generation since that time. OPF made reference to Vince's smoking habit that ultimately took his life. I collect old Packer video clips and I have one where Max McGhee is interviewed in the locker room after a game while getting dressed, and he, and many other players, are smoking a cig right in the locker room, on film while being interviewed. It seems strange to me today to know that was common practice back then. What would happen today if James Jones or AJ Hawk lit up after the game while being interviewed on Packers.com? '' Vince

I watched a special on the new and great young Canadian Pop singer Michael Buble - 'Live at Madison Sqare Gardens' this past Wed. evening. The first thing this young man with a real gift of a voice did was light up a cigarette. Maybe he doesn't inhale?

[Maxie the Taxi]

"I watched a special on the new and great young Canadian Pop singer Michael Buble - 'Live at Madison Sqare Gardens' this past Wed. evening. The first thing this young man with a real gift of a voice did was light up a cigarette. Maybe he doesn't inhale?"

Woodbuck, listen to his voice. If it wasn't for cigarettes, he'd be a soprano.

[cheesner]

Packgator has the right answer. You can't replace Hall of Famers.

I still remember them asking Vince how the team would do with Bengtson. He said the Packers would be all right.

We all knew they wouldn't be because all the stars were aging.

Not only were those teams stocked with Hall of Famers as starters, but they were deep. My memory may be failing me, but guys like Zeke Bratkowski, Elijah Pitts, Tom Moore, Travis Williams, Norm Masters, Bill Curry, Tommy Crutcher, Marv Fleming, and Maxie the Taxi were HUGE factors in backup roles compensating for injuries.

Because of free agency, there will never be another team like them. Sort of like the Yankess of the same era.

Those players are in the HOF because they were great players and because the Packers were successful. I feel Lombardi was a big part of making those players great and winning. Had Lombardi continued, the Packers would have still likely experienced a lag as the legends were replaced by youngsters, but that the youngsters would have been 'coached up' to be great players also.

The subsequent coaches were simply not Lombardi and the teaching, motivating, and the 'strategery' decreased. And in the NFL, a smidgen of advantage is all that is needed to go from an average team to a great team.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Woodbuck, another point... Did you ever listen to the difference between the young Sinatra and the old Sinatra? The young voice was pure and innocent sounding. The old voice had character and a deeper register.

It was the cigarettes.

[pbmax]

One of us should check on Waldo, he's been logged in all day with no posts. He might need medical attention, or help with Excel.

[Waldo]

One of us should check on Waldo, he's been logged in all day with no posts. He might need medical attention, or help with Excel.

Or use Firefox, and have 'Rats open on one of the tabs.