The Packers' Roster, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Brohm]

Montgomery has a 2-year deal as well, so they will need to be thinking about getting it restocked. Good year to find another young DE and a back-up NT (if they decide to not resign Pickett and Harrell is unable to resume his career).

[mraynrand]

Re: The Packers' Roster, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

I think that Jones has the highest ceiling of any in this draft class. He looked crazy good in coverage compared to the rest of our OLB's. Dom had him over slot WR's vs. Tn and he didn't get burned.
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OK, I don't know exactly what you're talking about. I just scanned back through the entire game. After the first series, Matthews came in at LOLB, Thompson at ROLB. Matthews gave way to Jones, with Jones taking Thompson's spot and Thompson going over to ROLB. I watched every play until Jones went out in favor to Obie. Jones was only in coverage once - a crossing pattern where he got help from Lasagna. Otherwise, I saw him -as you said - do KGB-like upfield rushes - with two good ones, including a tackle on the QB coming back. Otherwise he got stoned hard by fourth round pick Troy Kropog and was shut out in the run game defense. They have to be keeping Jones for his potential.

[Lurker64]

Also, I don't necessarily agree that they need to find 3 DL coming up. Cullen Jenkins has the potential to be one of the very best in the league as an RDE in a 3-4 if he can stay healthy, and he will be given every opportunity to prove that he can as he's a player worth keeping. Recall, that Cullen Jenkins is not actually especially prone to injury. In 2007 he wasn't quite the terror he was in preseason because of a variety of nagging injuries but still played in all the games, while in 2008 he suffered a torn pectoral muscle 4 games in. As a 5-technique DE he won't necessarily have the expectations of being the pass rushing force that a 4-3 RDE is, so his 2007 standard of play would be exceptional. A torn pec isn't exactly an injury that's likely to recur.

Also, Jarius Wynn is a player with tremendous potential and we may have gotten a steal in him. He definitely has natural pass rushing ability, he just needs to improve his play against the run which will come when he gets stronger, which is something all rookies pretty much need to do.

Looking long term, we likely have keepers in Jenkins, Wynn, and Raji. The NT dilemma is interesting, since it's Raji's best position but Pickett is likely worth keeping. Jolly and Montgomery are likely disposable, so we ultimately just need to find a long term solution for the LDE spot (as both Wynn and Jenkins are better suited to the right), and the upcoming draft is perfect for this. In addition to the aforementioned Jones and Oghobaase, check out Jared Odrick (Penn State), Jeff Owens (Georgia), Allen Bailey (Miami), Everson Griffen (USC), Lawrence Marsh (Florida), Marvin Austin (UNC), and Tyson Alualu (Cal). Those guys all project well to 5-tech and we should have a shot (or multiple shots) at most of them. Suh out of Nebraska would be ideal, but no way he falls to us. Last year was a pretty weak class for 5-technique DEs (you had Tyson Jackson who was a "sure thing" and there wasn't a lot else that didn't need considerable seasoning) this year, unquestionably, is not a weak class for 5-technique DEs. In each of the first four rounds (or so) you should be able to get a player that's an immediate upgrade over Monty.

Ultimately, we really only need to go 5 deep with solid talent on the DL to have one of the better DLs among 3-4 teams. That is, as long as we have good play at NT.

[Brohm]

Ultimately, we really only need to go 5 deep with solid talent on the DL to have one of the better DLs among 3-4 teams. That is, as long as we have good play at NT.

Which is why I hope they extend Pickett. I think he and Raji would be quite a rotation. I understand it if the money gets crazy but otherwise, why create weakness in depth at what is a critical position in our D (when what you have is really good).

[Partial]

I agree with you 100% on these points as well. I think another ugly should be banking on 6 DL when Jenkins has a pretty big injury history. I don't know if there was another worth keeping, but it would have been really nice to have MM as an extra guy to keep around instead of having to play him during games. Too bad Harrell's back is f'd up.

By MM do you mean "Michael Montgomery", the defensive end? If so, you're in luck. He's on the roster.

We have five guys who can play defensive end (Raji, Jenkins, Jolly, Montgomery, Wynn) and two guys who can play NT (Pickett, Raji). We'll only dress 5 DL for most games, most likely (with either Wynn or Montgomery sitting, depending on who we're playing). I'm a lot more concerned about the lack of depth at NT than the lack of depth at DE. At least we landed Toribio on the practice squad, since behind Raji and Pickett we have nobody who won't get us killed at NT.

MM is a jag. Would rather not have him anywhere on the roster. IMO, they should have brought in a guy to play ahead of MM, than kept MM as well since Jenkins is going to get hurt and they need the depth. Too bad Harrell couldn't have been the guy ahead of MM.

They are going to need to invest 3ish picks into the line next year as I doubt they will resign Jenkins (up in two years) and Jolly (up after this season). They will probably resign Pickett if he does well.

If Jenkins can stay healthy for two years, without a doubt they will keep him. The only knock is his injury history.

I'm not crazy about the DL at all to be honest. Raji missed out on a ton of time in camp and missed out on playing a huge role. I also believe his potential for injury is higher, and with Jenkins likely to get hurt, they can ill-afford to have two of their guys hurt on the line.

For all the comments about Martin, I will make one counter point: Why do all-star teams fail? They're loaded with talent, and even with plenty of time together, they still don't have chemistry. If this move throws off chemistry of the team, especially the QB, this team could quickly go from contender (which I believe tehy are) to pretender. I don't like the move at all. Martin seemed like a close friend and stablizing rock to many people. Keep the rock.

Why is Raji's potential for injury higher? Higher than what?

What all-star teams fail? Which teams are you referring to?

If ruvell is a "glue guy" or a chemistry guy...and cutting him means we lose chemistry then we are in a world of hurt. You are grasping, and it ain't pretty.

Ruvell may be a great guy and friend, but everybody on the packers knows it is a busines...and ruvell ain't DD. More to the point, how do you know there aren't more guys on the squad like RM?

As of now, Ruvell hasn't been claimed or signed...what does that tell you?

This is another one of your Money Morency moments. And, Money Morency is out of the league.

Raji held out. Lots of players who held out aren't accustomed to game speed come the regular season and frequently experience injury. See Ryan Grant last year.

USA Basketball 2004 is a prime example of an all-star team failing. Lakers the year they lost to Detroit in the finals despite having Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton and a HOF coach at the helm.

Ruvell can pick and choose where he wants to play. He's probably waiting for the right situation.

I think Ruvell, being the best friend of GJ and the QB, is more important to chemistry than DD. Kind of weird to think about, but the fact Ruvell is always with A-Rod representing the team at every major event says a lot.

I agree it's a business and needs to be treated as such, but sometimes it's not worth upgrading from an 8 (out of 10) to an 8.01 when chemistry goes from a 10 (out of 10) to an 8.

[Waldo]

Re: The Packers' Roster, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

I think that Jones has the highest ceiling of any in this draft class. He looked crazy good in coverage compared to the rest of our OLB's. Dom had him over slot WR's vs. Tn and he didn't get burned.
.

OK, I don't know exactly what you're talking about. I just scanned back through the entire game. After the first series, Matthews came in at LOLB, Thompson at ROLB. Matthews gave way to Jones, with Jones taking Thompson's spot and Thompson going over to ROLB. I watched every play until Jones went out in favor to Obie. Jones was only in coverage once - a crossing pattern where he got help from Lasagna. Otherwise, I saw him -as you said - do KGB-like upfield rushes - with two good ones, including a tackle on the QB coming back. Otherwise he got stoned hard by fourth round pick Troy Kropog and was shut out in the run game defense. They have to be keeping Jones for his potential.

I'm going to have to go dig it up. I've got them all on tape. Perhaps it wasn't vs. Tn.

Tomorrow when I get home from work I'll find it.

[pbmax]

For all the comments about Martin, I will make one counter point: Why do all-star teams fail? They're loaded with talent, and even with plenty of time together, they still don't have chemistry. If this move throws off chemistry of the team, especially the QB, this team could quickly go from contender (which I believe tehy are) to pretender. I don't like the move at all. Martin seemed like a close friend and stablizing rock to many people. Keep the rock.

Ruvell isn't Kurt Rambis. He is(was) one of 53 players, and near the bottom at that. And he didn't come close to starter's minutes. Swain isn't Karl Malone or Gary Payton either. Someone who could demand outsize considerations on offense without returning anything to the team.

Football teams can fail when they are just a collection of parts purchased in FA, because no one has seen then in their new environment, with new responsibilities in a new scheme and new coaches/game plans. By the time they figure it out, its too late to return for cash. Swain does not fall into this category. The coaches and personnel guys have seen him for two offseasons worth of practice. They know what they have.

Whether Swain can, as Nutz asked, provide backup receiver help as well as Ruvell, that remains to be seen. But his primary use, Special Teams, the coaches seem to think he will be better.

[Scott Campbell]

I agree it's a business and needs to be treated as such, but sometimes it's not worth upgrading from an 8 (out of 10) to an 8.01 when chemistry goes from a 10 (out of 10) to an 8.

I think your assumption about team chemistry is pure speculation. Those bottom roster spots are important for the developmental of players with high ceilings.

[pbmax]

Re: The Packers' Roster, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

OK, I don't know exactly what you're talking about. I just scanned back through the entire game. After the first series, Matthews came in at LOLB, Thompson at ROLB. Matthews gave way to Jones, with Jones taking Thompson's spot and Thompson going over to ROLB. I watched every play until Jones went out in favor to Obie. Jones was only in coverage once - a crossing pattern where he got help from Lasagna. Otherwise, I saw him -as you said - do KGB-like upfield rushes - with two good ones, including a tackle on the QB coming back. Otherwise he got stoned hard by fourth round pick Troy Kropog and was shut out in the run game defense. They have to be keeping Jones for his potential.

Not disagreeing with what you saw otherwise, but didn't Matthews go in on the defense's Right? And Thompson on the Left, in place of Kampman? That's what I remember seeing and that is where there were in practice after Thompson came back.

[Fritz]

Partial, regarding your comment that Ruvell Martin probably has his choice of situations, and is simply picking and choosing now:

Are you his agent? If not, you should be.

As for the thread, I'm really curious about Jeremy Thompson. He seems, according to many posters and I think the coaches, a ton of upside, but he doesn't seem to be translating that yet. I know it's early - is this year two for him? - but I'm wondering when he's going to or if he's going to show that aggressive demeanor he supposedly needs to develop, or if it'll just come when he stops thinking.

I was mildly surprised at Brad Jones sticking, as I hadn't heard much, at all, about him. But they kept Underwood too, and he apparently had a real up-and-down camp.

The three guys I've mentioned - Thompson, Jones, Underwood - must have lots of talent.

[Bretsky]

If Partial is Ruvell's agent he doesn't want me to be a GM

Your client is just a guy. I pass

[mraynrand]

Re: The Packers' Roster, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

OK, I don't know exactly what you're talking about. I just scanned back through the entire game. After the first series, Matthews came in at LOLB, Thompson at ROLB. Matthews gave way to Jones, with Jones taking Thompson's spot and Thompson going over to ROLB. I watched every play until Jones went out in favor to Obie. Jones was only in coverage once - a crossing pattern where he got help from Lasagna. Otherwise, I saw him -as you said - do KGB-like upfield rushes - with two good ones, including a tackle on the QB coming back. Otherwise he got stoned hard by fourth round pick Troy Kropog and was shut out in the run game defense. They have to be keeping Jones for his potential.

Not disagreeing with what you saw otherwise, but didn't Matthews go in on the defense's Right? And Thompson on the Left, in place of Kampman? That's what I remember seeing and that is where there were in practice after Thompson came back.

You're right, I got that flipped around. When Jones came in, he was left the entire time, and Thompson was on the right - so Clay played ROLB and Thompson at LOLB. I'll be interested to see what Waldo digs up from the previous preseason games - I already deleted them and can't look back. I do think Jones shows some real potential, thought, and Waldo's comparison of his pass rush to KGB seems pretty accurate.

[mraynrand]

Partial, regarding your comment that Ruvell Martin probably has his choice of situations, and is simply picking and choosing now:

Are you his agent? If not, you should be.

As for the thread, I'm really curious about Jeremy Thompson. He seems, according to many posters and I think the coaches, a ton of upside, but he doesn't seem to be translating that yet. I know it's early - is this year two for him? - but I'm wondering when he's going to or if he's going to show that aggressive demeanor he supposedly needs to develop, or if it'll just come when he stops thinking.

I was mildly surprised at Brad Jones sticking, as I hadn't heard much, at all, about him. But they kept Underwood too, and he apparently had a real up-and-down camp.

The three guys I've mentioned - Thompson, Jones, Underwood - must have lots of talent.

Thompson makes me worried about the 'look like Tarzan, play like Jane' deal. He is an amazing physical specimen - does he have the knack? It looks like he does pretty well holding up in the run game. I want to look at his game again, specifically pass rush.

[sharpe1027]

Thompson makes me worried about the 'look like Tarzan, play like Jane' deal. He is an amazing physical specimen - does he have the knack? It looks like he does pretty well holding up in the run game. I want to look at his game again, specifically pass rush.

I tried to pay attention to JT for much of the game. I found his pass rush was very underwhelming. Just about every play he locked up with the tackle early and that was it. No initial moves, no edge rushes, he just seemed to hold hands and slow dance with the tackle.

Of course I didn't watch him every play, but that was my impression for the plays I watched.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I agree with you 100% on these points as well. I think another ugly should be banking on 6 DL when Jenkins has a pretty big injury history. I don't know if there was another worth keeping, but it would have been really nice to have MM as an extra guy to keep around instead of having to play him during games. Too bad Harrell's back is f'd up.

By MM do you mean "Michael Montgomery", the defensive end? If so, you're in luck. He's on the roster.

We have five guys who can play defensive end (Raji, Jenkins, Jolly, Montgomery, Wynn) and two guys who can play NT (Pickett, Raji). We'll only dress 5 DL for most games, most likely (with either Wynn or Montgomery sitting, depending on who we're playing). I'm a lot more concerned about the lack of depth at NT than the lack of depth at DE. At least we landed Toribio on the practice squad, since behind Raji and Pickett we have nobody who won't get us killed at NT.

MM is a jag. Would rather not have him anywhere on the roster. IMO, they should have brought in a guy to play ahead of MM, than kept MM as well since Jenkins is going to get hurt and they need the depth. Too bad Harrell couldn't have been the guy ahead of MM.

They are going to need to invest 3ish picks into the line next year as I doubt they will resign Jenkins (up in two years) and Jolly (up after this season). They will probably resign Pickett if he does well.

If Jenkins can stay healthy for two years, without a doubt they will keep him. The only knock is his injury history.

I'm not crazy about the DL at all to be honest. Raji missed out on a ton of time in camp and missed out on playing a huge role. I also believe his potential for injury is higher, and with Jenkins likely to get hurt, they can ill-afford to have two of their guys hurt on the line.

For all the comments about Martin, I will make one counter point: Why do all-star teams fail? They're loaded with talent, and even with plenty of time together, they still don't have chemistry. If this move throws off chemistry of the team, especially the QB, this team could quickly go from contender (which I believe tehy are) to pretender. I don't like the move at all. Martin seemed like a close friend and stablizing rock to many people. Keep the rock.

Why is Raji's potential for injury higher? Higher than what?

What all-star teams fail? Which teams are you referring to?

If ruvell is a "glue guy" or a chemistry guy...and cutting him means we lose chemistry then we are in a world of hurt. You are grasping, and it ain't pretty.

Ruvell may be a great guy and friend, but everybody on the packers knows it is a busines...and ruvell ain't DD. More to the point, how do you know there aren't more guys on the squad like RM?

As of now, Ruvell hasn't been claimed or signed...what does that tell you?

This is another one of your Money Morency moments. And, Money Morency is out of the league.

Raji held out. Lots of players who held out aren't accustomed to game speed come the regular season and frequently experience injury. See Ryan Grant last year.

USA Basketball 2004 is a prime example of an all-star team failing. Lakers the year they lost to Detroit in the finals despite having Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton and a HOF coach at the helm.

Ruvell can pick and choose where he wants to play. He's probably waiting for the right situation.

I think Ruvell, being the best friend of GJ and the QB, is more important to chemistry than DD. Kind of weird to think about, but the fact Ruvell is always with A-Rod representing the team at every major event says a lot.

I agree it's a business and needs to be treated as such, but sometimes it's not worth upgrading from an 8 (out of 10) to an 8.01 when chemistry goes from a 10 (out of 10) to an 8.

Raji: You have yet to prove or show that he will be more apt to get injured. because one player or several have had that happen doesn't mean it will happen to him, or that there is a cause and effect. Ryan Grant...you mean the who rushed for 1200 yards, who started 14 of 16 games....yikes, we should be so lucky if raji has a year like that.

All - star: Are you serious. You are comparing the packers, a team that has had years of continuity, same coach and gm, players who have played together for several years..not all, but many...to a team that had 10 of 12 players change from 03 to 04. Even for you, that is horrendous.

The 04 team that won a bronze...so you mean that we might finish 3rd in the nfl...you mean like in the conference championship...that would suck. I'm very concerned.

Lakers. Really? You mean a team that signed 2 free agents, payton and malone who subsumed their egos and took less money to play? You mean a team that had a long standing feud tween shaq and kobe. You mean a team that didn't jettison a chemistry guy?

Wow. I don't recall chemistry being the issue...i recall two old fading stars that couldn't play.

Here i thought the pistons won because they played well, better defense and hustled.

Ruvell: Yeah, you are right. He just wants to not pick up a paycheck, he doesn't really love the game so he wants to miss the start of the season, he realizes that getting onto a team as quick as possible won't affect his playing team, he knows that he won't need to learn a playbook..after all you told us last year with favre that it wasn't a biggie.

Yes, Ruvell is much more a component and chemistry guy than DD. Yeah, DD is nothing...he not a good citizen or a leader of the pack.

Arod: what has his reaction been. How tore up is he. this has to be traumatic, not like last year. This is way worse...we are fucked. Season is over.

Chemistry..wow, talk about a bs argument. You don't know anything about the team's chemistry, you are speculating. You don't know if it is a 10 or if it is an 8 before Ruvell was cut. You dont' know if the chemistry went down.

Every year, every team, including the pack, cuts a popular player. No one is thinking about that, they are thinking about their first game. Life goes on.