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Originally posted by Partial
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So now you think Spitz is good? Help me out here.No longer the member of any fan clubs. I'm tired of jinxing players out of the league and into obscurity. -
I think Spitz is the best of Colledge, Spitz and Moll, if thats what you're asking. Better than bad != good. He's capable and was supposed to be an anchor this year, but he got hurt and was having a bad year before that.Originally posted by Smidgeon
I'm not saying he won't bounce back, but I doubt the Pack will pony up enough cash knowing he's coming off of injury.Comment
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I'd like to see how these guys respond to crazy Larry Beightol getting after their asses.. He had the OL in peak form prior to the cap/FA fallout when TT replaced Sherman. Campen is useless.sigpicComment
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So far this season the tackles are really the big problem. I suggested that this be solved with a rookie and a Lang/Barbre showdown. I've seen the interior line play better than this. Like you said these aren't young guys but they are too young to be falling apart. Nobody really knows what's going on right now with them but I'd at least give them a chance to bounce back. I still think they could have their act together by the end of the season. I don't think we need 3 or 4 new guys.Originally posted by Partial70% of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Al Harris.Comment
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One must judge the line individually and collectively. While one can possibly judge individual performance, there is NO WAY to judge this line collectively.
They didn't play enough games together at their projected positions to EVERY achieve a level of cohesiveness.
Ty is for keeping most of them, and looking for a LT. Ty firmly believes that the talent is there and that playing each player at one position for a season and together is necessary to truly evaluate the line.Comment
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How much more time do these guys get? Clifton, Tauscher, Colledge and Spitz have been on the line together for years. Clifton and Colledge are going on 4 years next to eachother yet they both have looked like hell.Originally posted by Tyrone Bigguns
I've never been a Colledge fan so as far as I'm concerned he can head out. I want Spitz to succeed but I don't think they'll resign him as he'll get offered good money by another club.
My beef with the whole thing lately is we are perpetually rebuilding. We've been doing this for five years now. Are we any better for it? Not really. The talented players on the team, with the exception of Rodgers and Jennings, are basically 5 years older and slower. Jennings is a poor man's JWalk (when healthy and before mental issues) and Rodgers is a very poor man's Favre.
So, I don't get it. We're worse off in 2009 than we were in 2005 at the following positions, if I remember the players correctly
1. QB
2. RB
3. WR - Though Walker was hurt, but the starting talent was higher
4. LT
5. RT
6. RG
7. LG
8. DE -> LOLB (Kampman was entering his prime)
9. CB, Harris was at the top of his game then
10. MLB -> Barnett isn't the same player after ACL tear
One could argue there were other pushes on the roster. Tough to make a case of better starting talent now, but we might have more average depth aka household name depth. Not sure what good that is, though.
Mike V with an article on the subject matter. No Rob D, though :-/
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I hope you really don't mean 2005 because the Packers were 4-12 that year. By subjective measure:Originally posted by Partial
Code:2005 - Offense 2009 - Offense Note POS - Name POS - Name QB - Brett Favre < QB - Aaron Rodgers Though overall BF is better, this was a bad year for him RB - Samkon Gado < RB - Ryan Grant Ahman Green was injured most of the year FB - William Henderson > FB - John Kuhn Personal preference WR - Donald Driver = WR - Donald Driver WR - Robert Ferguson < WR - Greg Jennings Javon Walker was on IR TE - David Martin < TE - Donald Lee LT - Chad Clifton > LT - Chad Clifton I'll take a younger CC any time LG - Scott Wells < LG - Daryn Colledge There's a reason Wells isn't at G anymore C - Mike Flanagan > C - Jason Spitz Wily ol' vet wins RG - Will Whitticker < RG - Josh Sitton Not even a question RT - Mark Tauscher > RT - Allen Barbre Again, wily ol' vet wins 2005 - Defense 2005 - Defense POS - Name POS - Name LDE - Aaron Kampman > LDE - Johnny Jolly LDT - Grady Jackson < NT - Ryan Pickett RDT - Cullen Jenkins < NT - Ryan Pickett RDE - KGB > RDE - Cullen Jenkins LLB - Paris Lenon < LOLB - Aaron Kampman MLB - Nick Barnett < MLB - Nick Barnett I'll take a more experienced NB MLB - Nick Barnett > MLB - A. J. Hawk RLB - Robert Thomas < ROLB - Clay Matthews III RCB - Al Harris < RCB - Al Harris Gets better with age LCB - Ahmad Carroll < LCB - Charles Woodson This one is enough to give the nod to 2009 SS - Mark Roman < SS - Atari Bigby Close, but not so close FS - Nick Collins < FS - Nick Collins Again, I'll take a more experienced NC K - Ryan Longwell > K - Mason Crosby Weaker leg, but more accurate P - BJ Sander < P - Jeremy Kapinos Lesser of two evils
No longer the member of any fan clubs. I'm tired of jinxing players out of the league and into obscurity.Comment
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It would be nice if you were factual. Spitz wasn't on the line playing center for years.Originally posted by Partial
Are you actually going to count this year as time together? LOL
Funny, i seem to recall tausch being gone for about 25% of the season last year...and at the end, just the time when you would expect things to be jelling at its best.
How has Spitz been "together for years?" This year he has been injured. Started all 16 last year for the first time...and CENTER was his NEW position.
Why would you bring up Clifton? Who is talking about him. Do you just like being stupid. What part about looking for a new LT didn't you understand?
Colledge has looked like hell at TACKLE. He had a bad game at Tampa. Should we forget his all rookie team? Should we forget how well he played last year?
What part of LINE TOGETHER don't you understand? Sitton and Barbre are first year starters.
It is barely worth responding as you don't even attempt to deal in reality.
Let's look this year's line at the start of the season: New RT, New G, New Center..that is 60% NEW. Then, you add in Clifton being injured and Lang starting...not to mention Colledge being shifted. Yeah, they really got a chance to jell.
To even attempt to make judgements about how this year's line has played as a group is asinine.Comment
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Here's what I don't understand and I hope others can help me understand. I know there is an importance to a group playing as a group over a period of time. This has to do with picking up stunts, knowing what the guy next to you will do if "A" or "B" happens, all of that.
However, when I watch this team pass blocking, I often think I am simply seeing guys getting whupped by the guys across from them. It doesn't seem like they're missing assignments, or "gee I didn't know you were gonna block that guy," though that does I am sure happen. But when I see the tackles trying to pass block defensive ends, those tackles - doesn't matter who, either - seem to get shoved right back into Rodgers's hip pocket every time. This seems more like a one-on-one problem than a cohesion problem.
But I don't know much about line play, so can someone help me understand how much of the problem is just one-on-one getting your butt beat, and how much is a result of not playing together, and how that not playing together might affect what I'm describing?"The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."
KYPackComment
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I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.
I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.Comment
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Its timing. Look at Colledge and the problem he is having with stunts (DT runs across Guard to hit Tackle, DE runs around DT to penetrate Guard gap or vice versa). Colledge is supposed to hit the DT early then pass him off to the tackle so the Guard can recover and stop the DE. Colledge is hitting the guy late and allowing penetration, and that leaves Clifton hanging on to keep Rodgers from major surgery and then Colledge is late sliding to pick up the DE. The pass off is problematic and slow. Every split second they are late, the pocket is growing smaller.Originally posted by Fritz
Colledge is either keying on the wrong thing or waiting for a cue from Clifton. Or he might just have ADD. Either way, a line that has been together a long time could change something just a little to quicken Colledge's reaction. It might be a nudge from Clifton, a shout or a look. Might be a line call to look left first. They might change Colledge's first step, or spacing. Or they might hit him in the head with a Gatorade cooler.
But his longtime teammate might know what he needs or might be in a position to embarrass him enough to straighten the problem out on his own. When I played, I used to have to decide what technique I was using at tackle then tell the Guard what technique to use. He was a great guy, but not fast on the uptake, if you know what I mean. Once, and this may be the highlight of my career, the asst. coach asked the TE to check with me what to do. The head coach said we can't do that, pbmax is already playing two positions.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.Comment
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Vince Lombardi had a talent for simplifying the game...Originally posted by Fritz
"You never win the game unless you beat the guy in front of you. The score on the board doesn't mean a thing . Thats for the fans. You've got to win the war with the man in front of you . You've got to get your man."
"Some people try to find things in this game that don't exist but football is only two things - blocking and tackling."One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
John Maxymuk, Packers By The NumbersComment
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Originally posted by Smidgeon
Classy to pick and choose data. Naturally we entered the season with those players as starters.Comment
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From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.Originally posted by Smidgeon
You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.
On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.
I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.70% of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Al Harris.Comment
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Fritzy makes a good point. No doubt PBMax is right that there are problems with stunt pickup.
But I've seen the same thing Fritz has -- our OL guys being walked, no run, right back in to Rodgers' lap. We seem especially weak in dealing with bull rushes, which is unfortunate given the number of big strong men who play defense in the NFL.
ND may be right that they are being too aggressive, but to me, they just look like they're getting their butts whipped.Comment
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