Aaron Rodgers now..

[RashanGary]

The easy thing to do is blame the OL for these sacks. I disagree.


One thing about football that I'm learning that I get the impression a lot of people haven't caught on to is that there are different responsiblities for a DL on each given play. Those responsibilities play a big role in whether a DL will win a pass rush battle.


Some plays, a lineman will play run gap integrity first. Some plays they'll rush the passer first, but still maintain some gap integrity. Sometimes they'll be rushing the passer, but also responsible for a screen. Sometimes, they'll be just plain going at the QB's head.

Way too many times, on first down, lineman were coming straight at Rodgers head with no regard to the possibility of deception or the run. It was eerie, actually.



Was Rodgers just not willing to dump off to slow the rush down? Did McCarthy think he didn't have to do anything to slow the rush down (run, screens, dump offs?)


The very simplistic thing to say is, Clifton got burned, but the reality might be he was put in a tough spot with a lineman rushing straight up field during a long developing pass play. Had the opposition feared the run or deception plays even at all, they wouldn't have been able to pin their ears back.


The OL gets a share of this, for sure, they're not elite. I think they're every bit as good as they were in 2007 though with the big difference being the play selection, progression by the QB, stubbornness by the coach to go away from what he wanted to do after seeing Rodgers throw so well down the field all offseason and Rodgers just not being willing to try to throw the ball into tight spots, preferring instead to wait until a guy ran wide open and then taking sacks.

[Cheesehead Craig]

How many drives has Rodgers ended with a dumb sack (failing to recognize a blitz and adjusting protection, holding the ball, etc)

This season a sack has ended a drive 15 out of the 121 drives. 3 of those sacks still resulted in a FG. So, I guess it comes down to how many of those sacks are on Rodgers and how many are on the OL?

A sack ends a drive mroe than just actually ending it on 3rd down. 1st down, sack, turns into 2nd and 18 turns into drive killer.

Makes the drive tougher, but doesn't end it.

[Sparkey]

How many drives has Rodgers ended with a dumb sack (failing to recognize a blitz and adjusting protection, holding the ball, etc)

This season a sack has ended a drive 15 out of the 121 drives. 3 of those sacks still resulted in a FG. So, I guess it comes down to how many of those sacks are on Rodgers and how many are on the OL?

A sack ends a drive mroe than just actually ending it on 3rd down. 1st down, sack, turns into 2nd and 18 turns into drive killer.

One thing to remember is not all those 1st down sacks were 1st & 10 sacks. May of them were 1st and 20 because of a holding or 1st & 15 after a false start.

[RashanGary]

Makes the drive tougher, but doesn't end it.

Thanks, Confucius. Just like a hold on 1st down doesn't technically end a drive but a great majority of the time it ends in a punt.

If you don't see how sacks on 1st down turns into a lot of punts, I'm sorry, but don't expect another response from me.

[RashanGary]

If you want to go dig up a stat, go count how many times Rodgers got sacked that ended up in a punt during that set of downs.


That will show you what the Sacks have done to this team.



And a case can be made that the OL is that much worse than 2007 and is the root of all the problems. Fine. Nobody is gonign to prove anyone wrong, there just isn't enough evidence.


What I believe about football tells me it's the QB and the stubborness to keep dropping back and letting the opposition come at the QB. My experience tells me there are ways to slow down the rush and the QB/Coach weren't using them. My experience tells me this Packers OL would do just fine running an offense similar to the 2007 offense, but up until just recently, they refused to do it.

[RashanGary]

And this is coming from a guy who said, "There will be very little drop off from the last QB to the new QB because of the surrounding team".

I still believe the surrounding team is hugely important to a large degree, but if a QB and coach just don't get it (seems to be teh case with MM and Rodgers), it can make a huge difference from when a QB and coach do get it (seems to be the case with Favre and McCarthy).

They thought they could just keep dropping back wihtout relying on the short passes and runs. They were wrong. In 2007 there was no such stubborness. Was that Favres experience telling him to do what worked despite MM? I don't know but as soon as Favre left, this offense hasn't been the same even if passing yards say it's similar. I'm with Partial and I was wrong. It's not the same. Something was wrong up until these last couple weeks when Rodgers started throwing ot tighter spoits instead of holding the ball, when they ran more short passes and runs. Something was just wrong. They made it way too hard on the OL. That's my perception.

[sharpe1027]

And a case can be made that the OL is that much worse than 2007 and is the root of all the problems. Fine. Nobody is gonign to prove anyone wrong, there just isn't enough evidence.

I watched the games, that is evidence enough for me. IMO, the O-line play was much, much worse. Not even close. I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I find it difficult to believe that anyone that watched the games could come away with a different conclusion.

Would more dump-off and quick passes have help? Sure, but the difference in pass-blocking from 2007 to the beginning of this year was night and day. Just not even close, IMHO.

Just what do you think DBs do when they know there will be immediate pressure on the QB? I am no expert, but I would guess that they sit on the short routes and take their chances with getting beat deep. Also, when a team can get pressure with only 4 rushers, they will almost always have deep help.

It starts and ends with the O-line. IMO, blaming Rodgers for anything more than a few of the sacks is just not right.

[get louder at lambeau]

Something was just wrong. They made it way too hard on the OL. That's my perception.

I agree. They KNEW that the OL's pass protection was the weak point of the offense, and yet seemed to do nothing at all to take the pressure off of them. It would be like having a weak-armed QB and just ignoring that fact, calling lots of deep bombs anyway, instead of going for high percentage short passes. I think the blame can be spread around all over, from the line, to McCarthy, to Rodgers, to the WRs, etc.

[SkinBasket]

It starts and ends with the O-line. IMO, blaming Rodgers for anything more than a few of the sacks is just not right.

Ignoring 5 INTs through 11 games, and 2 in 10 of those is also not right. There's a trade off that some people want to ignore completely.

[bobblehead]

JH-

Take your impression now, and find the midpoint to where you were 12 months ago and you will find the truth.

ARod has taken many sacks he shouldn't have...all young starters do, or they throw interceptions...nature of being a young NFL QB.

MANY sacks that Arod took were because an OL (often Babre) Got flat out owned to the point ARod had zero shot of doing anything.

It was a two part problem. Way back when BF left us I said I was glad and it was time, but BACK THEN I said that I would likely miss him when our young QB ate a few sacks because he didn't get rid of the ball. It didn't take a genius to see that coming.

NOW, what I didn't see coming was MM being stubborn enough to start a complete turnstile at RT for 8? games before making a switch, and compounding the problem immensely.

You're a good poster and you obviously have an ability to learn from your mistakes, but the last step you have to take is to look at possible middle ground. ARod is a very good QB RIGHT NOW, but he is not peyton or brady. He might develope into that with a bit more time, and I would say he is on par with peyton in his 2nd season starting. Not all of the ills are his fault, but he isn't immune to criticism either.

Early on MM had abandoned the run and let the D know it and it caused us no end of problems. Right now ARod is playing smarter, MM is calling a better game, and the OL is looking...well, not completely retarded to quote skinbasket. The NFL is an eb and flow and you have to adjust....its looking good now, but I'm not dumb enough to think things could go bad just as easily.

One big problem with posters/fans is they/we like to see things and form a rock solid opinion without thinking middle ground. Outflow saw a team playing poorly and couldn't look past it at the talent and imagine a scenario where we finish 10-6. You saw BF throw a mountain of picks and couldn't see how replacing him could hurt. I saw Crosby miss badly from 50+ and two game winners and decided he wasn't that good. We ALL over react at times.

Anyway, take a deep breath, props on your newfound respect for BF's talent (hopefully not his person) but believe it, we have a very good NFL QB on our team and he is going to be top 5-7 in the league for a long time. There will be rough spots, but hey, that is why the other team gets paid too...we could be Redskin fans after all.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Makes the drive tougher, but doesn't end it.

Thanks, Confucius. Just like a hold on 1st down doesn't technically end a drive but a great majority of the time it ends in a punt.

If you don't see how sacks on 1st down turns into a lot of punts, I'm sorry, but don't expect another response from me.

Sorry oh great one. Maybe sometime you should say what you mean next time.

I never said that taking a sack doesn't result in a greater chance of punting. Nice try putting words in my mouth just to make yourself look better.

[RashanGary]

Go listen to the Rome Rodgers interview. Rodgers just said everything I just said.

Just like a DL looks bad on a pass play when he's playing the run first, he looks great on a pass play when he's going at the QB's head. It's a concept, I think some people have a hard time grasping, but it was nice to hear someone who knows a lot more than us about the situation agree with me.

[Waldo]

Something was just wrong. They made it way too hard on the OL. That's my perception.

I agree. They KNEW that the OL's pass protection was the weak point of the offense, and yet seemed to do nothing at all to take the pressure off of them. It would be like having a weak-armed QB and just ignoring that fact, calling lots of deep bombs anyway, instead of going for high percentage short passes. I think the blame can be spread around all over, from the line, to McCarthy, to Rodgers, to the WRs, etc.

Almost every pass play call has a hot, a deep, a mid range, and a check down. Each play has built in protections based on what the QB sees at the line and the alignement that the QB and C see. The QB chooses his read progression based on the D, and calls the protection at the line.

It is Aaron's choice, based on how he reads the D, when and where to throw the ball. He's been riskier with his throws as a late (as far as window size), and has notably been trying to get it out faster, but I don't think that we are seeing much change to the plays called.

When Aaron stood there holding it, it isn't like McCathy called an all go. You could always see underneath stuff open that Aaron was ignoring. And he's been sacked A LOT by free rushers. Typically a free rusher is the QB's man (not enough blockers for rushers; block inside out, set the edge free, and fire hot his direction), the WR always checks for a free rusher and adjusts hot that side if he sees one. In other words, Aaron should see the free rusher and fire hot behind him. He should recognize this immediately by the first step of the lineman, and know whether there is a free guy or not early in his drop. If the WR fails to adjust hot (a reason that Jones doesn't see the field a whole lot, he has screwed that up a lot), the QB has to fire at his feet, there is no other option.

[RashanGary]

Almost every pass play call has a hot, a deep, a mid range, and a check down. Each play has built in protections based on what the QB sees at the line and the alignement that the QB and C see. The QB chooses his read progression based on the D, and calls the protection at the line.

It is Aaron's choice, based on how he reads the D, when and where to throw the ball. He's been riskier with his throws as a late (as far as window size), and has notably been trying to get it out faster, but I don't think that we are seeing much change to the plays called.

When Aaron stood there holding it, it isn't like McCathy called an all go. You could always see underneath stuff open that Aaron was ignoring. And he's been sacked A LOT by free rushers. Typically a free rusher is the QB's man (not enough blockers for rushers; block inside out, set the edge free, and fire hot his direction), the WR always checks for a free rusher and adjusts hot that side if he sees one. In other words, Aaron should see the free rusher and fire hot behind him. He should recognize this immediately by the first step of the lineman, and know whether there is a free guy or not early in his drop. If the WR fails to adjust hot (a reason that Jones doesn't see the field a whole lot, he has screwed that up a lot), the QB has to fire at his feet, there is no other option.

This is my understanding too. I, personally, blame MM more than Rodgers but I know at one point MM was trying to get Rodgers to adjust and Rodgers was being stubborn. MM would say it has to come out quicker and AR would say, "I'm nto going to change". I think it was before teh Tampa game.

Maybe it was just a lesson Aaron needed to learn on his own. I know I don't just blindly listen. If I believed what I was doing was right, I'd do the same thing Aaron did until I believed in waht the coach was saying.

[pbmax]

If you want to go dig up a stat, go count how many times Rodgers got sacked that ended up in a punt during that set of downs.


That will show you what the Sacks have done to this team.

What are we debating? No one fails to understand the deleterious effect that sacks and pre-snap penalties have on an offense.

I thought we were arguing where the failure lies. And the first failure is on the O line which had been horrible at pass blocking. And now may be average. Rodgers made this worse by holding onto the ball too long in some instances. But lets emphasize SOME instances. Rodgers has had time and failed to throw 25% of the time according to data presented before the Cowboys game.

As for the other point about running, the current Packer run pass ratio is 44/56. That is pretty balanced for the McCarthy era. It was also balanced for Holmgren. I do not have the stats for a down by down breakdown.