Atari Bigby

[vince]

Woodson has also moved into that role as the roving/blitzing safety in the box on numerous occasions.

Bigby's biggest limitation is that when you bring him up into the box ala Paolamalu, he can provide strong run support and can blitz, but due to his size and speed, he would be a liability covering most TE's in today's game and most slot receivers and backs in the open field. While the Packer play mostly zone these days, there's no denying the fact that guys run into, through and along the edges of those zones that have to be covered. A lack of height in particular can be exposed in the short zones against big TE's. Bigby's listed at 5' 11". which is bad enough, but of he's 5'10" I'll eat my shorts. He may be 5'11" with his helmet on.

So if the Packers brought him up more regularly in pass and run/pass situations, it'd be too easy for teams to check from a plays that play to his strengths into plays that isolates his weakness. You obviously can't blitz him every time in those situations because he'd be too easy to account for.

The fact that Capers moves Collins and Woodson - two of the absolute best in the leage - around in this defense to make plays more than Bigby is evidence that he isn't as versatile in coverage as those guys (few are), but it doesn't say any more than that. In fact, Bigby's better in the box than both of those guys stuffing the run, and he is the guy who usually comes up in high-percentage running situations.

Also, in passing situations and where run/pass tendencies are more equal, Capers has shown that he calls a much more vanilla game when he doesn't have strong backend support, so it's Bigby's ability that enables Capers to disguise things more and be as aggressive with Collins and Woodson to maximize their abilities in those situations.

It was after the Cincy game when Rouse was cut for being exposed back there, and @ Minny was not one of Wood's many stellar games this year. Those are both games that Bigby missed. It was after the Minn. game where Woodson lashed out at Capers in frustration for not allowing him to be more aggressive. The reality was that Favre tore the Packers up when they were aggressive because our safeties in particular didn't get the job done.

So Woodson wouldn't have the numbers he has if he wasn't so good, but he also can thank the fact that - with Bigby - the team doesn't have a weakness (with the notable possible exception of nickel/dime situations now that Harris is out) which would keep Capers from putting Woodson in position to shine. And even in nickel/dime, it's Bigby and Collins in deep support who help cover that up (thus far for the most part - keeping fingers crossed).

Sure he's upgradeable, but it'd take one of the special talents to do it. Bigby's a guy I'd like to see around. If he's a backup, all the better, but you want him on the team.

[Gunakor]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

Does someone keep stats on gameballs now? Because obviously it's the best measure of how talented a player is. Just like being glue. The master of intangibles and unsubstantial correlative results!

If pumping a metric ton of sunshine into Atari's anus each week to keep his confidence up is what it takes to keep him from making mistakes out there, I'm all for it though.

So, here's a summary of your argument, Skin-

If reporters give him any credit, it's dismissed as a "fluff piece".

When he gets some big hits, they are weren't any bigger than any other safety would have.

Being fifth in the NFL among safeties in INTs is just because the QBs throw balls straight at him and he somehow manages not to drop them once in a while.

When he plays well, it's just because of how great everyone around him is, and it says nothing about him as a player.

If he gets lots of gameballs and praise from the HC, it's just because McCarthy is trying to blow sunshine up his ass to keep him from making mistakes.

Did I miss anything?

Those would be some of my arguments. My main point being that calling Bigby a pro-bowl caliber player and pinning our wins and losses on him is ridiculous. I feel it's fairly obvious that Bigby's role has been relegated to playing deep help, and in that role he's benefiting from a great defense in front of him applying pressure, crushing the run at the line, and covering well. Not the other way around, that Bigby brings some magical undefinable quality (oftentimes referred to as "glue," or "positive team effect," or the "Ruvell factor") that makes this entire defense dominant by virtue of him simply being on the field. Several people and articles have claimed he's out there adjusting the defense or calling coverages, and while it's hard to pick up on that when he's oftentimes starting the play off camera, I'll try to pay closer attention this weekend to see if that's true, because to my best recollection, I haven't seen it happening. I'll run down your list quick though.

JSO runs lots of fluff pieces, not just for Bigby. They're easy, feel good scribble. Fans like them because it makes them feel good about the player and the team, especially when things are going well.

As far as the big hits go, Bigby had a few - a couple years ago. This season he's had some solid whacks on guys over the middle, but nothing that makes him stand out from any other safety lining up a big hit on an easy target.

I don't recall any of his INTs requiring any special athleticism or talent other than not dropping the ball. I don't fault him for that - it's what he's supposed to do in that position. I think I remarked that it's nice, but it doesn't make me feel a different player wouldn't have made those plays or that Bigby should be considered a pro bowl talent for catching them. Again, it's a direct benefit of a great defense providing those opportunities. Eugene Robinson used to play the same role years ago. He was slow because he was old. Atari's just slow because he's slow.

I don't know if Bigby is playing any better or any worse than he has in the past when healthy. He's made a couple ankle tackles that I think he's missed in the past, so I would say that's improved. Of course he's making those diving tackles because he's not quick to adjust when the ball carrier changes direction.

The amount of praise he's been getting seems excessive and not all of it seems based on reality. They talk a lot about his confidence. About how they trust him. All of his "responsibilities." They give him footballs and pat him on the back. It smells a little like the slightly retarded kid in high school who finally hits or catches the ball after several dozen tries and everyone gives him accolades and he smiles real big and feels important and tries harder. I'm sure others have different interpretations of it, but that's how it strikes me.

Bottom line: Bigby is one of, if not the most, limited players on this defense. I see his recent success as a direct result of a vastly improved defense, scheme, and coaching staff. His role has been limited, and to appease his ego and retain his confidence, he is praised excessively about his trustworthiness, his responsibilities, and given game balls.

If you want to argue that Atari is so important to this defense as to be almost single-handedly responsible for it's vast improvements, then you would also have to argue that Al Harris conversely was of little to no importance, given the lack of defensive drop off since he was injured. Correlating wins and loses to one player of Bigby's abilities playing or not is absurd.

I understand we can't have all pros at all 11 positions on defense, so I'm fine with having Bigby there for now. I just don't happen to believe he is magically responsible for the improvement on defense, much less the wins and losses of the team, or that he's anywhere near being pro bowl quality.

You say Bigby is merely a product of the system he plays in, and a beneficiary of the other talented players on that defense. Yet he gets the job done. How he gets the job done and why he's able to get the job done is irrelevant. THAT he gets the job done is the only relevant matter. Certainly we can agree on that much, can't we?

Facts are facts. Bigby is doing his part in this defense and playing very well. The team is winning with Bigby on the field, much moreso than they were without him on the field.

I would absolutely agree that Bigby is more important to this defense than Al Harris, for two reasons. One, the dropoff from Bigby to whoever they'd plug in behind him (Giordono, Martin, whoever) is far greater than from Harris to Williams. Two, the safeties are the last line of defense, making that position more important than cornerback IMO.

The transformation of this defense from good to elite occured when Bigby got healthy. Look at the defensive performances from games this season when Bigby was out with injury. Then look at the performances after he returned. Not just Bigby's performances, but the defense as a whole. How were the OTHER players on that defense used before and after Bigby's return. Compare. Then try to convince me that Bigby isn't key to the evolution of this defense. I call BS.

[Fritz]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:



Bigby seen through many Packer fans' eyes:

In that first picture, which one is Bigby? The chick?

[KYPack]

Troy Polamalu is the Steelers Strong Safety. Ryan Clark plays the Free Safety spot. Polamalu is really a hybrid. He is a joker or wild card guy. LeBeau has a unique design for Troy bc of his unique talent. Troy moves around based on down and distance. 1st down finds him in the box. 2nd down behind the LB's and 3rd down, deeper but the up guy in the secondary.

Getting a pre-snap read on Polamalu is absolutely worthless. Last year, I saw him make a play I'm still trying to believe. Troy was on the right side of the defense on 3rd and 6. He was just outside the tackle on the weakside, showing blitz technique. The play was a quick out, just past the sticks. Housh ran a good route and Palmer put it right there. The pass was broken up by the DB. The DB was Polamalu. I didn't notice live how he got over there and had to watch the tape. At the snap, Polamalu had both feet on the LOS on the right. But he instantly broke and ran his ass off diagonally across the field to the other sideline. He arrived just in time to bat down the pass, making a great play that a corner usually makes. I watched that play probably 5 times & I still don't know how he did it, bc it wasn't humanly possible.

I've also seen him turn long gainers into 2 yard losses on screens. They guy goes beyond reads. He's freakin' clairvoyant.

Pitt has a big problem. Lebeau has designed his defense around Polamalu's unique talents. By utilizing his considerable skills, the Steelers are one effective group. With Troy out and a normal human at SS, they are a pretty ordinary bunch.

[SkinBasket]

You say Bigby is merely a product of the system he plays in, and a beneficiary of the other talented players on that defense. Yet he gets the job done. How he gets the job done and why he's able to get the job done is irrelevant. THAT he gets the job done is the only relevant matter. Certainly we can agree on that much, can't we?

I've already stated several times that I'm fine with him there for now. He's being limited to a role where his deficiencies are minimized. Unfortunately that means he can't play near the LOS and spends a lot of time by himself deep. Fortunately he hasn't dropped his opportunities and has only prevented a teammate from making a play once to my recollection. Improvement.

Facts are facts. Bigby is doing his part in this defense and playing very well. The team is winning with Bigby on the field, much moreso than they were without him on the field.

You right, facts is facts:

I would absolutely agree that Bigby is more important to this defense than Al Harris, for two reasons. One, the dropoff from Bigby to whoever they'd plug in behind him (Giordono, Martin, whoever) is far greater than from Harris to Williams. Two, the safeties are the last line of defense, making that position more important than cornerback IMO.

Being more important, relative to his position, than Al Harris, even if true, does not make him pro bowl quality. Not that I agree that Bigby is a bigger or more important part of this defense than one of the top CBs in the league.

The transformation of this defense from good to elite occured when Bigby got healthy. Look at the defensive performances from games this season when Bigby was out with injury. Then look at the performances after he returned. Not just Bigby's performances, but the defense as a whole. How were the OTHER players on that defense used before and after Bigby's return. Compare. Then try to convince me that Bigby isn't key to the evolution of this defense. I call BS.

And I thought claiming Bigby is more important than Al Harris was silly. You want to disregard the efforts of our entire defense, collectively and individually, and assign responsibility for a top ranked defense to Atari Bigby? So it's Atari and not the D Linemen stop the run at the line? Atari is responsible for Clay Matthews pass rushing? Atari Bigby is responsible for the 3-4 transformation and positional coaching? Do Nick Collins' 6 INTs actually belong to Bigby? Atari Bigby should accept Woodson's accolades for everything he does on the field? Bigby is responsible for 59's development and picked up the slack when Kampman and Harris went down?

I find it much easier to believe that Bigby's return to health coincides with all of those things, not explains them - a combination of which provides a much more sane explanation for a defense playing well than the mystical contributions of the defense's weakest player. You want to revel in putting the cart before the horse because it makes it more fun and easier to root for an underdog player. That's great, but it doesn't make him any better of an athlete or grant him any magical powers.

Or does it?

LEGENDARY ATARI BIGBY OF DEFENSIVE COHESION +3!!!

[Gunakor]

You say Bigby is merely a product of the system he plays in, and a beneficiary of the other talented players on that defense. Yet he gets the job done. How he gets the job done and why he's able to get the job done is irrelevant. THAT he gets the job done is the only relevant matter. Certainly we can agree on that much, can't we?

I've already stated several times that I'm fine with him there for now. He's being limited to a role where his deficiencies are minimized. Unfortunately that means he can't play near the LOS and spends a lot of time by himself deep. Fortunately he hasn't dropped his opportunities and has only prevented a teammate from making a play once to my recollection. Improvement.

That's our defense. Whether or not he can play at or near the LOS is fairly irrelevant to our situation here. He's not needed at the LOS - we're #1 rush defense with no need to drop Bigby into the box. Why does it matter whether he can play at the LOS if the SS in our defense is playing deep?

I would absolutely agree that Bigby is more important to this defense than Al Harris, for two reasons. One, the dropoff from Bigby to whoever they'd plug in behind him (Giordono, Martin, whoever) is far greater than from Harris to Williams. Two, the safeties are the last line of defense, making that position more important than cornerback IMO.

Being more important, relative to his position, than Al Harris, even if true, does not make him pro bowl quality. Not that I agree that Bigby is a bigger or more important part of this defense than one of the top CBs in the league.

There you go again with the incessant need for a Pro Bowl quality player at SS. Who cares?

The transformation of this defense from good to elite occured when Bigby got healthy. Look at the defensive performances from games this season when Bigby was out with injury. Then look at the performances after he returned. Not just Bigby's performances, but the defense as a whole. How were the OTHER players on that defense used before and after Bigby's return. Compare. Then try to convince me that Bigby isn't key to the evolution of this defense. I call BS.

And I thought claiming Bigby is more important than Al Harris was silly. You want to disregard the efforts of our entire defense, collectively and individually, and assign responsibility for a top ranked defense to Atari Bigby? So it's Atari and not the D Linemen stop the run at the line? Atari is responsible for Clay Matthews pass rushing? Atari Bigby is responsible for the 3-4 transformation and positional coaching? Do Nick Collins' 6 INTs actually belong to Bigby? Atari Bigby should accept Woodson's accolades for everything he does on the field? Bigby is responsible for 59's development and picked up the slack when Kampman and Harris went down?


I find it much easier to believe that Bigby's return to health coincides with all of those things, not explains them - a combination of which provides a much more sane explanation for a defense playing well than the mystical contributions of the defense's weakest player. You want to revel in putting the cart before the horse because it makes it more fun and easier to root for an underdog player. That's great, but it doesn't make him any better of an athlete or grant him any magical powers.


I find it just as silly that you would disregard the effort Bigby has given in the evolution of our entire defense. Atari isn't the one making stops at the LOS. Atari is the reliable deep safety that allows other players to make plays at the LOS. You didn't see as many plays at the LOS early in the season when LB's were lining up 5+ yards off the line and dropping into coverage. That all changed when a guy Capers could trust got healthy, allowing him to use his linebackers more at the line. Boom. Top ranked rush defense. Al Harris did not have that type of an impact on the defense as a whole, and IMO was not more important to the defense than Bigby is. Ah, notice how the defense was sub par while Bigby was out yet remained one of the leagues elite after losing Harris. Again, which player is more key?

You wanted an explaination of how Bigby was key to the evolution of this defense and not just a beneficiary of it, there it is. His play is directly related to the production of everybody else, and the defense as a whole is better for it.

[Gunakor]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

[mraynrand]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

[pbmax]

Troy Polamalu is the Steelers Strong Safety. Ryan Clark plays the Free Safety spot. Polamalu is really a hybrid. He is a joker or wild card guy. LeBeau has a unique design for Troy bc of his unique talent. Troy moves around based on down and distance. 1st down finds him in the box. 2nd down behind the LB's and 3rd down, deeper but the up guy in the secondary.

Getting a pre-snap read on Polamalu is absolutely worthless. Last year, I saw him make a play I'm still trying to believe. Troy was on the right side of the defense on 3rd and 6. He was just outside the tackle on the weakside, showing blitz technique. The play was a quick out, just past the sticks. Housh ran a good route and Palmer put it right there. The pass was broken up by the DB. The DB was Polamalu. I didn't notice live how he got over there and had to watch the tape. At the snap, Polamalu had both feet on the LOS on the right. But he instantly broke and ran his ass off diagonally across the field to the other sideline. He arrived just in time to bat down the pass, making a great play that a corner usually makes. I watched that play probably 5 times & I still don't know how he did it, bc it wasn't humanly possible.

I've also seen him turn long gainers into 2 yard losses on screens. They guy goes beyond reads. He's freakin' clairvoyant.

Pitt has a big problem. Lebeau has designed his defense around Polamalu's unique talents. By utilizing his considerable skills, the Steelers are one effective group. With Troy out and a normal human at SS, they are a pretty ordinary bunch.

Phenomenal. Was Housh in a slot position or wide?

This kind of thing happens in basketball, where a player will rebound or block or defend a shot and then outlet the ball while under the basket. There is a fast break and a basket, and if you are lucky to get a good play by play or a replay, you discover the guy scoring on the break is the guy who was furthest away from break when it started. Bobby Jones on the Sixers used to do this all the time.

I recently saw a highlight of it happening again in the NBA, but don't remember the player.

I think Skin has a basic point about the shortcomings of Bigby's athleticism. I have seen it on some (not a lot) throws deep where I would hope to see him closer. He seems smart enough that recognition may get him there more often as he becomes more confident in his reads. Clearly he has gotten better as the year goes along on the stuff in front of him.

But he is clearly light years ahead of the backups right now. Which may be part of the reason why his record as a starter looks so good. And he has the skills to man his role well. Is he replaceable? Yes, but not yet by anyone on the roster. The second safety on this team (esp. with Collins if he signs a big extension eventually) is not going to be a five tool player unless we hit it big on a draft pick. There simply isn't the money in the budget to pay big time money to a second top caliber safety. But the role in this scheme is such that someone like Bigby can play it good enough to win.

[SkinBasket]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

If I had photoshop installed on this computer we would have a nice portrait of Atari Jesus in this thread already.

[pbmax]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:



Bigby seen through many Packer fans' eyes:

In that first picture, which one is Bigby? The chick?

If so, Bigby is unconventionally attractive. For a safety.

[get louder at lambeau]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:

In that first picture, which one is Bigby? The chick?

I'm not sure if Bigby is supposed to be the girl or the guy on the right, but SkinBasket is obviously the happy looking guy on the left with his eyes closed.

[SkinBasket]

There you go again with the incessant need for a Pro Bowl quality player at SS. Who cares?

No. That's the claim between the two Bigby threads by the believers that I've been arguing against. That a) he's pro-bowl quality or anywhere near it and b) that he is such an important player that his awesomeness, which apparently can only be measured in fly-ball interceptions, gameballs, and the W-L record of the entire team, overwhelms the performance, improvement, coaching, and scheme of the entire defense on an individual and a team level.

I'm not saying we need a pro bowl SS. I'm saying Bigby isn't one. Nor is he the reason we win or lose, although he has been the reason ofr the later in the past. He's simply an adequate player on a great and steadily improving defense. Improving because they're learning the scheme, rookies are gaining experience, and the defense as a whole is playing with confidence and aggressiveness. Not because Bigby happens to be standing 20 yards off the LOS.

[pbmax]

I find it just as silly that you would disregard the effort Bigby has given in the evolution of our entire defense. Atari isn't the one making stops at the LOS. Atari is the reliable deep safety that allows other players to make plays at the LOS. You didn't see as many plays at the LOS early in the season when LB's were lining up 5+ yards off the line and dropping into coverage. That all changed when a guy Capers could trust got healthy, allowing him to use his linebackers more at the line. Boom. Top ranked rush defense. Al Harris did not have that type of an impact on the defense as a whole, and IMO was not more important to the defense than Bigby is. Ah, notice how the defense was sub par while Bigby was out yet remained one of the leagues elite after losing Harris. Again, which player is more key?

Gun, if I have pulled this quote out and it wasn't yours let me know, I will fix it. That was a long confusing batch of quotes and bolding.

I think you have a point about the time Bigby missed, but its not all in his favor. Bigby missed 3 games (CIN, STL, MIN). In two of those, teams ran more than Capers would like to yield. He adjusted and Favre had a field day throwing with plenty of time.

But when Bigby returned, Capers did not go immediately back to blitzing. There were the wins versus Cleve and Detroit but also the Favre-a-Polooza at Lambeau, where they went for 38 points. Then the Tampa fiasco. Finally versus Dallas they rose up, blitzed and still stopped the run. But it took until the 5th game of his return to perform like that.

Also during his return, they got lit up by Pittsburgh. So its not all candy and nuts for Atari. Harris missing does cost them in coverage. Bigby is necessary for the Packer defense to perform at a high level, but its a even mix of his skill and the shortcomings of his backups that makes it so.

[get louder at lambeau]

I'm not saying we need a pro bowl SS. I'm saying Bigby isn't one. Nor is he the reason we win or lose, although he has been the reason ofr the later in the past. He's simply an adequate player on a great and steadily improving defense.

If that's what you're saying, at least you're starting to see the light compared to what you were saying a few days ago-

The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

I'd count "adequate player" as a major upgrade of your opinion over that first indictment.