CARDS SAW A WEAKNESS AND EXPLOITED IT

[pbmax]

The Packer Insider article from Christl's guy said he thought the Packer shallow defenders were too quick to jump routes and leave their space, or both go with one player, leaving another alone. He attributed it to mental errors as well as too much aggression. Woodson definitely had some plays where safer, less aggressive tactics would have saved yards.

[denverYooper]

On too many plays, including one by Woodson, it seemed the Packers were too intent on ripping the ball out, and failed to make the tackles. Especially in the first half I saw defenders grabbing arms, not bodies, even when they were the first man there. A lot of extra yardage resulted from that.

Yes! I noticed that also. Several times there were 3 guys ripping at the ball, no one tackling.

[PA Pack Fan]

As usual, pbmax is the voice of reason around here.

Here's the Kurt Warner highlight video from NFL.com. It doubles as the Packer Pass Defense Lowlight Video-

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a55b7/Wild-Card-Kurt-Warner-highlights

1:52 Woodson is laying on his ass as Fitzgerald scores a TD.
2:30 Woodson is laying on his ass again as Fitzgerald scores another TD.
0:20 Woodson covers no one at all, as a WR from his side runs free for a TD.
1:40 Woodson whiffs on an attmpted pass breakup, falls on his face, and the WR runs free for a first down.
6:20 Woodson wraps up the WR, but then lets him go and falls on his ass. (This one set up the 35 yd game winning FG attempt at the end of regulation.)

Now, those of you who think Bush, or Bigby, or Giordano, or whoever else sucked, please do the same thing I just did, and show us all how they sucked, instead of just claiming it without basis.

Thanks in advance.

Thank you sir. You also helped in revealing the idiot posters here.

[Bretsky]

As usual, pbmax is the voice of reason around here.

Here's the Kurt Warner highlight video from NFL.com. It doubles as the Packer Pass Defense Lowlight Video-

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a55b7/Wild-Card-Kurt-Warner-highlights

1:52 Woodson is laying on his ass as Fitzgerald scores a TD.
2:30 Woodson is laying on his ass again as Fitzgerald scores another TD.
0:20 Woodson covers no one at all, as a WR from his side runs free for a TD.
1:40 Woodson whiffs on an attmpted pass breakup, falls on his face, and the WR runs free for a first down.
6:20 Woodson wraps up the WR, but then lets him go and falls on his ass. (This one set up the 35 yd game winning FG attempt at the end of regulation.)

Now, those of you who think Bush, or Bigby, or Giordano, or whoever else sucked, please do the same thing I just did, and show us all how they sucked, instead of just claiming it without basis.

Thanks in advance.

I trust you watched the game yesterday; at bare minimum you should have noticed the piss poor tackling angles and blown coverages....from several other than Woodson.

Just to clarify, I never said Woodson was even remotely effective yesterday.

Saying he stunk is not evidence the others did not

[get louder at lambeau]

As usual, pbmax is the voice of reason around here.

Here's the Kurt Warner highlight video from NFL.com. It doubles as the Packer Pass Defense Lowlight Video-

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a55b7/Wild-Card-Kurt-Warner-highlights

1:52 Woodson is laying on his ass as Fitzgerald scores a TD.
2:30 Woodson is laying on his ass again as Fitzgerald scores another TD.
0:20 Woodson covers no one at all, as a WR from his side runs free for a TD.
1:40 Woodson whiffs on an attmpted pass breakup, falls on his face, and the WR runs free for a first down.
6:20 Woodson wraps up the WR, but then lets him go and falls on his ass. (This one set up the 35 yd game winning FG attempt at the end of regulation.)

Now, those of you who think Bush, or Bigby, or Giordano, or whoever else sucked, please do the same thing I just did, and show us all how they sucked, instead of just claiming it without basis.

Thanks in advance.

I trust you watched the game yesterday; at bare minimum you should have noticed the piss poor tackling angles and blown coverages....from several other than Woodson.

Just to clarify, I never said Woodson was even remotely effective yesterday.

Saying he stunk is not evidence the others did not

I would just like to SEE the evidence, instead of having to take someone else's word for it. The highlight vids should show all the big plays, so it shouldn't be hard to find where they picked on Bush and Bigby. Not calling anyone out, I just want evidence, since videos are so easily available.

I saw Woodson fuck up over and over. Granted he had the hardest assignment, but he sucked yesterday. I saw Collins fuck up at least a couple times. I saw Chillar and the other LBs unable to cover WRs, which is no real surprise. I saw Warner play the game of his life, and I saw the receivers catch everything that came near them. I didn't see Bush fucking up much, or Bigby. Lots of people claim to have seen it, so I'd like to see what I missed.

[Smidgeon]

As usual, pbmax is the voice of reason around here.

Here's the Kurt Warner highlight video from NFL.com. It doubles as the Packer Pass Defense Lowlight Video-

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a55b7/Wild-Card-Kurt-Warner-highlights

1:52 Woodson is laying on his ass as Fitzgerald scores a TD.
2:30 Woodson is laying on his ass again as Fitzgerald scores another TD.
0:20 Woodson covers no one at all, as a WR from his side runs free for a TD.
1:40 Woodson whiffs on an attmpted pass breakup, falls on his face, and the WR runs free for a first down.
6:20 Woodson wraps up the WR, but then lets him go and falls on his ass. (This one set up the 35 yd game winning FG attempt at the end of regulation.)

Now, those of you who think Bush, or Bigby, or Giordano, or whoever else sucked, please do the same thing I just did, and show us all how they sucked, instead of just claiming it without basis.

Thanks in advance.

I trust you watched the game yesterday; at bare minimum you should have noticed the piss poor tackling angles and blown coverages....from several other than Woodson.

Just to clarify, I never said Woodson was even remotely effective yesterday.

Saying he stunk is not evidence the others did not

I would just like to SEE the evidence, instead of having to take someone else's word for it. The highlight vids should show all the big plays, so it shouldn't be hard to find where they picked on Bush and Bigby. Not calling anyone out, I just want evidence, since videos are so easily available.

I saw Woodson fuck up over and over. Granted he had the hardest assignment, but he sucked yesterday. I saw Collins fuck up at least a couple times. I saw Chillar and the other LBs unable to cover WRs, which is no real surprise. I saw Warner play the game of his life, and I saw the receivers catch everything that came near them. I didn't see Bush fucking up much, or Bigby. Lots of people claim to have seen it, so I'd like to see what I missed.

It may sound like a cop-out, but unless the Packers were in man, you don't know who was supposed to be covering whom. Some of those players running free maybe were supposed to be released to the defender with a deeper zone. Maybe Woodson's in all those plays because he was trying to make a play when everyone else stood around. And as for how much he sucked, he's the one who forced the one Cardinal turnover and had the crucial pass defensed late in the game. I'm not saying he played perfect. I'm just saying that from what I saw, he didn't play as bad as you infer. Highlights tell jack.

[get louder at lambeau]

Highlights tell jack.

Ruh-heeeely? Wow. I've heard people argue with opinions, with articles, with stats, but with video evidence? You know that's how they catch bank robbers and terrorists, right? It's kinda considered to be good evidence to be able to see things with your own eyes.

Yes, it does sound like a cop out. Of course you're right that sometimes you don't know who is supposed to be covering who, but sometimes it's just plain obvious. You can watch it over and over, and see what each player is doing. I'm no expert on pass defense schemes by any stretch, but you don't have to be to see some of this stuff.

I broke down that whole video in my unedumacated way for another site. Here is how I see it. If you disagree with what I see, I'd love to hear your version of what happened. Like I said, I'm no expert, just another Packer fan.

Here's what I see in the video-

Play #1- 3rd and 8, 3 receivers stacked tight to the right. Only 9 Packers on the screen, so I'm guessing two safeties are deep. Two CBs (Wood and Underwood?) get cleared out by Fitz and Doucet. Urban is totally uncovered for 13 yards and a 1st down.

Chillar is standing in the middle of the field doing nothing, so maybe that's on him? It looks like a possible scheme problem that they are using a weird set to exploit, so my guess is this one might be on Capers. The guy who caught it is a WR, not a TE, so you can't really expect Chillar, an LB, to be able to run with him anyway, right? That or one of those CBs was supposed to let the other two WRs run by him and play a short zone, so maybe it's on Underwood?

Whatever it was, they are 2nd and goal at the 5, and the end result is a rushing TD two plays later.

#2- 1st and 15. Tramon Williams is playing WAY off coverage, lining up 7 yards deep, and Warner sees it. He's still 5 yards off the WR when the ball gets there. Easy completion for 11 yards.

#3- 2nd and 3 at the GB 16. 4 wide, 2 per side. Packers bring Chillar on a blitz, 5 man rush. Warner over the middle to Doucet for an easy TD.

Collins was lined up in the middle, but is keying on the RB since the snap who goes out for a pass immediately. Woodson kinda just stands there, and covers nobody. He looks like he may have been trying to tell Collins something before the play. Maybe he wanted to change coverage? Very quick developing play that looks genius against our D. Either Woodson or Collins, or both look like they are to blame.

#4- 1st and 10. Attempted flea flicker, Matthews forces a fumble. Partyman AZ recovers. Sad

#5- 1st and 10. AZ goes 3 wide, spread out very wide, and a TE. 2 WRs right, TE left. TE (Ben Patrick) beats Collins bad for 23 yards.

#6- 2nd and 13 at the 16. 4wide, 2 per side. Fitz runs right at Bush, then jukes around him, apparently to disrupt his zone coverage timing. Great playcall by AZ with Fitz kinda running a pick on Bush. As a result, Doucet is open 3 yards deep underneath. Bush misses the tackle from behind. Collins hits him square for what should be an easy tackle, but doesn't wrap up and just falls off him. TD. The catch is on Bush. The TD is on Collins.

#7- 2nd and 3, 4 wide, 2 per side. Crossing pattern creates another natural pick, with Bush having to go around Barnett to follow Doucet across the field. Complete for 8. Not sure what could have been done better, great play design. Zone instead of man coverage may have worked better?

#8- 2nd and 7, 4 wide, motioned to become 2 per side. Woodson's guy gets it as he dives for the INT/breakup instead of covering, and whiffs. 11 yard completion.

#9- 1st and 10 at the GB 33. Woodson falls down after getting tangled up with Fitzgerald, and just sits there on the ground for a split second. Easy TD.

Many Packer fans may say that it should have been an offensive illegal contact penalty, but that never gets called in the NFL, and they both were battling a little. Woodson got the worst of it, and got schooled by the best receiver in the game for a long TD.

#10- 1st and 10, 4 wide, 2 per side. Looks like zone coverage, with the RB clearing Bush out wide to create a mismatch by isolating Doucet on Barnett, who whiffs on the tackle. 15 yards. Great playcall.

#11- 1st and 5 at the GB 11, 4 wide, 3 stacked tight left. Woodson falls down after contacting Fitz again, leaving Giordano in the endzone to cover Fitz. Another easy TD.

#12- 2nd and 8, 4 wide, 2 per side. RB hightower out of the backfield "covered" by Cullen Jenkins. Jenkins predictably gets burned, dives and gets his shoelaces enough to make him step out after 9 yards. He almost gets much more. This one is on Capers.

#13- 1st and 10. Can't see the formation in this one, since the play is in progress when the clip starts. It's probably 4 wide like most of the others. Tramon has great tight coverage on Breaston, but gets beat for 25 yards anyway with a perfect pass and great catch. Williams even grazed the ball with his hand. Nine times out of ten that would be incomplete with coverage like that. Warner is absolutely on fire.

#14- 2nd and 7 at the GB 17, 4 wide, 2 per side. The WRs on the left cross, and the RB goes out wide in the flat under them. I can't tell who's supposed to do what on this one. Could be on Williams, or Bush, or Barnett, who is the closest to Breaston when he gets the ball. One way or another, it looks like they know how to exploit our pass coverage scheme with complicated pass patterns.

My conclusion after watching that play by play and analyzing it to the best of my unedumacated abilities is that Warner and the Cardinal receivers were on fire, with only 4 incomplete passes all day, Woodson got schooled, and Capers got outschemed. I expected to see more of Giordano and the other backups, but it doesn't look like they really exploited them as much as you'd think. They dared Woodson to beat Fitzgerald, and the results were similar to Plaxico Burress vs. Al Harris in the '07 NFC Championship game.

[bobblehead]

How many of those 10+ wide open catches were Bush's fault? Maybe a couple. I bet Woodson got beat as much as Bush....

Bigby was out and the announcers didn't even notice. The scrubs we had in were killing us. Bush was not the biggest of the problems out there. He's just a convenient scape goat.

Woodson got beat twice against Fitzgerald. Both for TDs. At least one could have been called an offensive PI. Maybe both. But probably just the second one. I can't blame Woodson for those. I think there were two other passes where he was around the play, but I don't know if those were his assignments or if he was free-lancing over to the play.

Woodson gets beat, and we make excuses. Bush is hardly heard from and everyone blames him.

Agaiin, not making excuses for woodson (other than fitz plowing into him and no call). He didn't play great. Also not making excuses for bush...give me a break...not heard from??? What game were you watching??

Where as you have to pretend you know the coverage and responsibilities of Bigby to claim he was out of position, Bush was the obvious cover guy getting beaten time after time.

I don't pretend to know anything. I didn't say Bigby was out of position. I said his replacement didn't seem to have much range. Settle down big boy, some of us are just trying to discuss the game. No need to get all bent out of shape and start slinging accusations.

The bigby comments weren't in regard to anything you wrote, it was a response to what others had written. Sooo, settle down big boy, I know it read as if I were attributing the bigby stuff to you, but my apologies, I was trying to slam bush mainly. I wasn't bent out of shape and I didn't mean to "sling allegations" your way.

[bobblehead]

Well, if Woodson was playing the QB and the ball and not the WR, Fitz can't run over him. At all. Them's the rules.

If Fitz is running a route beyond 5 yards, the Woodson can't impede his route. At all. Them's the real rules...

Ummmm....no, them isn't. Wood was in the endzone, established in position. If the ball is thrown on the other side of wood, Fitz can fight to get to it. What he can't do is slam into wood, push him to the ground and reverse field to get open. That is text book offensive PI.

[Smidgeon]

Highlights tell jack.

Ruh-heeeely? Wow. I've heard people argue with opinions, with articles, with stats, but with video evidence? You know that's how they catch bank robbers and terrorists, right? It's kinda considered to be good evidence to be able to see things with your own eyes.

Yes, it does sound like a cop out. Of course you're right that sometimes you don't know who is supposed to be covering who, but sometimes it's just plain obvious. You can watch it over and over, and see what each player is doing. I'm no expert on pass defense schemes by any stretch, but you don't have to be to see some of this stuff.

I broke down that whole video in my unedumacated way for another site. Here is how I see it. If you disagree with what I see, I'd love to hear your version of what happened. Like I said, I'm no expert, just another Packer fan.

Here's what I see in the video-

Play #1- 3rd and 8, 3 receivers stacked tight to the right. Only 9 Packers on the screen, so I'm guessing two safeties are deep. Two CBs (Wood and Underwood?) get cleared out by Fitz and Doucet. Urban is totally uncovered for 13 yards and a 1st down.

Chillar is standing in the middle of the field doing nothing, so maybe that's on him? It looks like a possible scheme problem that they are using a weird set to exploit, so my guess is this one might be on Capers. The guy who caught it is a WR, not a TE, so you can't really expect Chillar, an LB, to be able to run with him anyway, right? That or one of those CBs was supposed to let the other two WRs run by him and play a short zone, so maybe it's on Underwood?

Whatever it was, they are 2nd and goal at the 5, and the end result is a rushing TD two plays later.

#2- 1st and 15. Tramon Williams is playing WAY off coverage, lining up 7 yards deep, and Warner sees it. He's still 5 yards off the WR when the ball gets there. Easy completion for 11 yards.

#3- 2nd and 3 at the GB 16. 4 wide, 2 per side. Packers bring Chillar on a blitz, 5 man rush. Warner over the middle to Doucet for an easy TD.

Collins was lined up in the middle, but is keying on the RB since the snap who goes out for a pass immediately. Woodson kinda just stands there, and covers nobody. He looks like he may have been trying to tell Collins something before the play. Maybe he wanted to change coverage? Very quick developing play that looks genius against our D. Either Woodson or Collins, or both look like they are to blame.

#4- 1st and 10. Attempted flea flicker, Matthews forces a fumble. Partyman AZ recovers. Sad

#5- 1st and 10. AZ goes 3 wide, spread out very wide, and a TE. 2 WRs right, TE left. TE (Ben Patrick) beats Collins bad for 23 yards.

#6- 2nd and 13 at the 16. 4wide, 2 per side. Fitz runs right at Bush, then jukes around him, apparently to disrupt his zone coverage timing. Great playcall by AZ with Fitz kinda running a pick on Bush. As a result, Doucet is open 3 yards deep underneath. Bush misses the tackle from behind. Collins hits him square for what should be an easy tackle, but doesn't wrap up and just falls off him. TD. The catch is on Bush. The TD is on Collins.

#7- 2nd and 3, 4 wide, 2 per side. Crossing pattern creates another natural pick, with Bush having to go around Barnett to follow Doucet across the field. Complete for 8. Not sure what could have been done better, great play design. Zone instead of man coverage may have worked better?

#8- 2nd and 7, 4 wide, motioned to become 2 per side. Woodson's guy gets it as he dives for the INT/breakup instead of covering, and whiffs. 11 yard completion.

#9- 1st and 10 at the GB 33. Woodson falls down after getting tangled up with Fitzgerald, and just sits there on the ground for a split second. Easy TD.

Many Packer fans may say that it should have been an offensive illegal contact penalty, but that never gets called in the NFL, and they both were battling a little. Woodson got the worst of it, and got schooled by the best receiver in the game for a long TD.

#10- 1st and 10, 4 wide, 2 per side. Looks like zone coverage, with the RB clearing Bush out wide to create a mismatch by isolating Doucet on Barnett, who whiffs on the tackle. 15 yards. Great playcall.

#11- 1st and 5 at the GB 11, 4 wide, 3 stacked tight left. Woodson falls down after contacting Fitz again, leaving Giordano in the endzone to cover Fitz. Another easy TD.

#12- 2nd and 8, 4 wide, 2 per side. RB hightower out of the backfield "covered" by Cullen Jenkins. Jenkins predictably gets burned, dives and gets his shoelaces enough to make him step out after 9 yards. He almost gets much more. This one is on Capers.

#13- 1st and 10. Can't see the formation in this one, since the play is in progress when the clip starts. It's probably 4 wide like most of the others. Tramon has great tight coverage on Breaston, but gets beat for 25 yards anyway with a perfect pass and great catch. Williams even grazed the ball with his hand. Nine times out of ten that would be incomplete with coverage like that. Warner is absolutely on fire.

#14- 2nd and 7 at the GB 17, 4 wide, 2 per side. The WRs on the left cross, and the RB goes out wide in the flat under them. I can't tell who's supposed to do what on this one. Could be on Williams, or Bush, or Barnett, who is the closest to Breaston when he gets the ball. One way or another, it looks like they know how to exploit our pass coverage scheme with complicated pass patterns.

My conclusion after watching that play by play and analyzing it to the best of my unedumacated abilities is that Warner and the Cardinal receivers were on fire, with only 4 incomplete passes all day, Woodson got schooled, and Capers got outschemed. I expected to see more of Giordano and the other backups, but it doesn't look like they really exploited them as much as you'd think. They dared Woodson to beat Fitzgerald, and the results were similar to Plaxico Burress vs. Al Harris in the '07 NFC Championship game.

I said "highlights" not "the entire game tape". Highlights show one play or parts of one play. They don't show the play within the series or the series within the drive. They don't show the entire play: what the QB was looking at, what the WR saw in coverage, what the CB was trying to do, what the safeties were trying to cover. All of which are things that are necessary to know whether someone played as awful as you are saying Woodson played. I have no idea whether he played that awful or not. It's my opinion that he didn't.

And it definitely isn't comparable to Harris vs Burress two years ago. In that game Harris couldn't stop a single thing thrown to Burress. Until the two plays that Woodson fell down (tell me, did he fall down by himself?), Fitzgerald only had a couple catches at most. Then there's the play where Woodson stripped Fitzgerald of the ball. Then the other play where he defended the pass and knocked the ball down late in the game. That doesn't sound as one sided as you make it out to be.

------------------------

In fact, I went back to the play by play to see what Fitzgerald did in the game. After looking at the catches Fitzgerald made, I would say that it wasn't that bad of a day by Woodson against one of the game's best WRs.

In the first half Fitzgerald had two catches for 20 yards and a lost fumble stripped by Woodson.

In the third quarter Fitzgerald got a defensive PI against Woodson for 9 yards, then the two touchdowns. The first I actually agree was incidental contact where Woodson fell. But Woodson falling on incidental contact isn't him getting schooled by Fitzgerald. That's a freak play that happens to everyone at one point or another. The second touchdown I maintain was a non called offensive PI where Fitzgerald pushed off enough to gain the separation needed to catch that ball. Or, to put it the way the rule book states (sorta), he plowed through a defender with established position. Later on in the quarter Woodson prevented a third down completion attempt to Fitzgerald.

Fourth quarter Fitzgerald had one catch against Woodson for 6 yards and one against Collins for 15. The one against Collins for 15 could have been when Woodson was covering, but I don't know because the Cards went no-huddle on that play.

That was Fitzgerald's entire day. Take away the freak play that could have happened to anyone and the debated offensive PI, and I would say Woodson ruled Fitz and not the other way around. Fitzgerald had three catches for 26 yards except for those two plays. When Woodson was on him and not tripped up by feet or pushed off of, Fitzgerald caught 3 balls, lost a fumble, and couldn't convert on a crucial third down.

EDIT: Again, that doesn't tell the entire story. That tells part of it. I don't know that Woodson was locked up man to man all game. I don't know how often they zoned him away from Fitzgerald's route. So he arguably had a below average to poor day. But even if they show him on the highlight replays, without seeing it in context, the defensive play called, where he lined up, and who he was playing, you can't say he played awfully, and I can't say he played great.

Parry and joust.

[Pugger]

I think we can all agree that Sunday's playoff game wasn't exactly the defense's finest hour by any stretch of the imagination. Usually one or two guys have bad games but the crappy play was shared equally by everyone at multiple moments in that game. It didn't help to have almost zero pressure on Warner. If you give a QB like him that kind of time you're gonna get killed. It also didn't help to have such a depleted secondary. I can't think of many teams that can overcome the devastation we endured in that section of the defense with one pro-bowler CB and 2 backups on IR. It is nightmarish when you have to trot out your #6 DB on the depth chart in nickel and dime situations! The Steeler game and this playoff game really exposed how vulnerable we were after losing Kampman and Harris.

[sharpe1027]

I said "highlights" not "the entire game tape". Highlights show one play or parts of one play. They don't show the play within the series or the series within the drive. They don't show the entire play: what the QB was looking at, what the WR saw in coverage, what the CB was trying to do, what the safeties were trying to cover. All of which are things that are necessary to know whether someone played as awful as you are saying Woodson played. I have no idea whether he played that awful or not. It's my opinion that he didn't.

And it definitely isn't comparable to Harris vs Burress two years ago. In that game Harris couldn't stop a single thing thrown to Burress. Until the two plays that Woodson fell down (tell me, did he fall down by himself?), Fitzgerald only had a couple catches at most. Then there's the play where Woodson stripped Fitzgerald of the ball. Then the other play where he defended the pass and knocked the ball down late in the game. That doesn't sound as one sided as you make it out to be.

------------------------

In fact, I went back to the play by play to see what Fitzgerald did in the game. After looking at the catches Fitzgerald made, I would say that it wasn't that bad of a day by Woodson against one of the game's best WRs.

In the first half Fitzgerald had two catches for 20 yards and a lost fumble stripped by Woodson.

In the third quarter Fitzgerald got a defensive PI against Woodson for 9 yards, then the two touchdowns. The first I actually agree was incidental contact where Woodson fell. But Woodson falling on incidental contact isn't him getting schooled by Fitzgerald. That's a freak play that happens to everyone at one point or another. The second touchdown I maintain was a non called offensive PI where Fitzgerald pushed off enough to gain the separation needed to catch that ball. Or, to put it the way the rule book states (sorta), he plowed through a defender with established position. Later on in the quarter Woodson prevented a third down completion attempt to Fitzgerald.

Fourth quarter Fitzgerald had one catch against Woodson for 6 yards and one against Collins for 15. The one against Collins for 15 could have been when Woodson was covering, but I don't know because the Cards went no-huddle on that play.

That was Fitzgerald's entire day. Take away the freak play that could have happened to anyone and the debated offensive PI, and I would say Woodson ruled Fitz and not the other way around. Fitzgerald had three catches for 26 yards except for those two plays. When Woodson was on him and not tripped up by feet or pushed off of, Fitzgerald caught 3 balls, lost a fumble, and couldn't convert on a crucial third down.

EDIT: Again, that doesn't tell the entire story. That tells part of it. I don't know that Woodson was locked up man to man all game. I don't know how often they zoned him away from Fitzgerald's route. So he arguably had a below average to poor day. But even if they show him on the highlight replays, without seeing it in context, the defensive play called, where he lined up, and who he was playing, you can't say he played awfully, and I can't say he played great.

Parry and joust.

It may sound like a cop-out, but unless the Packers were in man across the board, you don't know who was supposed to be covering whom. Some of those coverages on Fitz maybe had a defender with a deeper zone helping out. Maybe Woodson's wasn't maned up on Fitz on all those plays because he was in zone or covering a different WR. And as for how forcing the one Cardinal turnover, it was key, but doesn't mean anything about the entire rest of the game. I'm not saying he was completely ineffective. I'm just saying that from the evidence presented by people here, he didn't play as good as you infer and nobody has been able to show much of anything wrong with Bush's play. Conclusions without much support tell jack.



Seriously though, trying to poke holes in someone else's points has limited value. Woodson and the entire defense was beat. IMHO, people need to stop blaming so much on Bush. I think he had a decent game, given how bad the entire D played.

[Zool]

Here's a question about highlight reels. Do you think they are going to show Larry Fitz catching balls or would they focus on Early Doucet. Because nothing sells ad space like a good Early Doucet highlight film.

Woodson was locked up on who's widely considered the best WR in football. He didnt play well obviously. He took far too many risks. Bush was lined up across from Doucet who had a whopping 17 catches on the season coming into the game. How many catches would Fitz have if locked up with Bush all day.

The Cards found the weak link and exploited it until they gave help and pulled the help from Woodsons side. Then they started going to Fitz.

Go find a Cardinal fan and ask if they feel good about the play of Michael Adams heading down to N.O.

[Smidgeon]

I said "highlights" not "the entire game tape". Highlights show one play or parts of one play. They don't show the play within the series or the series within the drive. They don't show the entire play: what the QB was looking at, what the WR saw in coverage, what the CB was trying to do, what the safeties were trying to cover. All of which are things that are necessary to know whether someone played as awful as you are saying Woodson played. I have no idea whether he played that awful or not. It's my opinion that he didn't.

And it definitely isn't comparable to Harris vs Burress two years ago. In that game Harris couldn't stop a single thing thrown to Burress. Until the two plays that Woodson fell down (tell me, did he fall down by himself?), Fitzgerald only had a couple catches at most. Then there's the play where Woodson stripped Fitzgerald of the ball. Then the other play where he defended the pass and knocked the ball down late in the game. That doesn't sound as one sided as you make it out to be.

------------------------

In fact, I went back to the play by play to see what Fitzgerald did in the game. After looking at the catches Fitzgerald made, I would say that it wasn't that bad of a day by Woodson against one of the game's best WRs.

In the first half Fitzgerald had two catches for 20 yards and a lost fumble stripped by Woodson.

In the third quarter Fitzgerald got a defensive PI against Woodson for 9 yards, then the two touchdowns. The first I actually agree was incidental contact where Woodson fell. But Woodson falling on incidental contact isn't him getting schooled by Fitzgerald. That's a freak play that happens to everyone at one point or another. The second touchdown I maintain was a non called offensive PI where Fitzgerald pushed off enough to gain the separation needed to catch that ball. Or, to put it the way the rule book states (sorta), he plowed through a defender with established position. Later on in the quarter Woodson prevented a third down completion attempt to Fitzgerald.

Fourth quarter Fitzgerald had one catch against Woodson for 6 yards and one against Collins for 15. The one against Collins for 15 could have been when Woodson was covering, but I don't know because the Cards went no-huddle on that play.

That was Fitzgerald's entire day. Take away the freak play that could have happened to anyone and the debated offensive PI, and I would say Woodson ruled Fitz and not the other way around. Fitzgerald had three catches for 26 yards except for those two plays. When Woodson was on him and not tripped up by feet or pushed off of, Fitzgerald caught 3 balls, lost a fumble, and couldn't convert on a crucial third down.

EDIT: Again, that doesn't tell the entire story. That tells part of it. I don't know that Woodson was locked up man to man all game. I don't know how often they zoned him away from Fitzgerald's route. So he arguably had a below average to poor day. But even if they show him on the highlight replays, without seeing it in context, the defensive play called, where he lined up, and who he was playing, you can't say he played awfully, and I can't say he played great.

Parry and joust.

It may sound like a cop-out, but unless the Packers were in man across the board, you don't know who was supposed to be covering whom. Some of those coverages on Fitz maybe had a defender with a deeper zone helping out. Maybe Woodson's wasn't maned up on Fitz on all those plays because he was in zone or covering a different WR. And as for how forcing the one Cardinal turnover, it was key, but doesn't mean anything about the entire rest of the game. I'm not saying he was completely ineffective. I'm just saying that from the evidence presented by people here, he didn't play as good as you infer and nobody has been able to show much of anything wrong with Bush's play. Conclusions without much support tell jack.



Seriously though, trying to poke holes in someone else's points has limited value. Woodson and the entire defense was beat. IMHO, people need to stop blaming so much on Bush. I think he had a decent game, given how bad the entire D played.

I agree that Woodson and the entire D was beat. Woodson didn't play lights out. The whole D allowed a ton of points. But the inference that I took issue to was one where Woodson played one of his worst games (not stated but implied). I didn't see it that way and have stated my reasons why. He didn't play a great game, but he didn't play as badly as people infer either. I don't have anything to say about Bush. I think the only time I referenced him was when I either referenced other posters ripping him or the one drag/trail route where he was in man coverage and in no position to even challenge the catch (but did get the tackle).

[sharpe1027]

I agree that Woodson and the entire D was beat. Woodson didn't play lights out. The whole D allowed a ton of points. But the inference that I took issue to was one where Woodson played one of his worst games (not stated but implied). I didn't see it that way and have stated my reasons why. He didn't play a great game, but he didn't play as badly as people infer either. I don't have anything to say about Bush. I think the only time I referenced him was when I either referenced other posters ripping him or the one drag/trail route where he was in man coverage and in no position to even challenge the catch (but did get the tackle).

Woodson had one of his best years ever, so I would say this was one of his worst games. I personally believe it was his worst game of the year. I am not saying that he was worse than anyone else out there, but it was one of his worst games.

One of the original and main reasons Woodson was brought up in this thread was to point out how people piled on Bush just because he's Bush and make excuses for Woodson just because he's Woodson. So I have to respectfully say you have completely missed one of the main points of this entire discussion.