CARDS SAW A WEAKNESS AND EXPLOITED IT

[sharpe1027]

Here's a question about highlight reels. Do you think they are going to show Larry Fitz catching balls or would they focus on Early Doucet. Because nothing sells ad space like a good Early Doucet highlight film.

Woodson was locked up on who's widely considered the best WR in football. He didnt play well obviously. He took far too many risks. Bush was lined up across from Doucet who had a whopping 17 catches on the season coming into the game. How many catches would Fitz have if locked up with Bush all day.

The Cards found the weak link and exploited it until they gave help and pulled the help from Woodsons side. Then they started going to Fitz.

Go find a Cardinal fan and ask if they feel good about the play of Michael Adams heading down to N.O.

Bush would get torched by Fitz, badly. Bush is also a special teamer originally slated as a 4th backup safety.

[SkinBasket]

Bush is also a special teamer originally slated as a 4th backup safety.

Doucet is a 2nd year player slated as a 5th/6th backup WR. Of course it doesn't matter much since Bush didn't bother covering him half the time. Which is why you don't see Bush in your highlight films.

[sharpe1027]

Bush is also a special teamer originally slated as a 4th backup safety.

Doucet is a 2nd year player slated as a 5th/6th backup WR. Of course it doesn't matter much since Bush didn't bother covering him half the time. Which is why you don't see Bush in your highlight films.

This is fun. Let's see...when Woodson is blamed it is the refs fault...or is it that the posters can't possibly know the responsibilities on every play...ect...

Yet it is easy to blame Bush because we can assume that every catch by the 3rd WR was his fault.

See my point?

[Smidgeon]

I agree that Woodson and the entire D was beat. Woodson didn't play lights out. The whole D allowed a ton of points. But the inference that I took issue to was one where Woodson played one of his worst games (not stated but implied). I didn't see it that way and have stated my reasons why. He didn't play a great game, but he didn't play as badly as people infer either. I don't have anything to say about Bush. I think the only time I referenced him was when I either referenced other posters ripping him or the one drag/trail route where he was in man coverage and in no position to even challenge the catch (but did get the tackle).

Woodson had one of his best years ever, so I would say this was one of his worst games. I personally believe it was his worst game of the year. I am not saying that he was worse than anyone else out there, but it was one of his worst games.

One of the original and main reasons Woodson was brought up in this thread was to point out how people piled on Bush just because he's Bush and make excuses for Woodson just because he's Woodson. So I have to respectfully say you have completely missed one of the main points of this entire discussion.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see what happened one way and you see it the other way. And while I can definitely see where you're coming from (even if I have a different conclusion) it seems that you're saying that I "make excuses for Woodson just because he's Woodson." I don't think you're even trying to see what I'm seeing, just undermining my point by saying that I'm making excuses instead of looking at whether what I say has validity or not. So I'd just prefer to exit this discussion.

[sharpe1027]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see what happened one way and you see it the other way. And while I can definitely see where you're coming from (even if I have a different conclusion) it seems that you're saying that I "make excuses for Woodson just because he's Woodson." I don't think you're even trying to see what I'm seeing, just undermining my point by saying that I'm making excuses instead of looking at whether what I say has validity or not. So I'd just prefer to exit this discussion.

Not trying to make this difficult. I have to be honest, I'm really not sure what you are trying to say, other than you seem to take exception to any characterization of Woodson's play that is not favorable. Sure you put in disclaimers about how he wasn't perfect, but vast majority of your posts are efforts to defend him.

I'll try to clearly state my point:

Bush is a convenient scapegoat and I haven't seen or heard much that convinces me that he played all that poorly. I get that people are pissed about the loss and saw lots of pass yards given up and that Bush is an easy target. Woodson was brought up to show how the same conclusions made about Bush could make everyone's favorite (mine too) look poor as well.

[Smidgeon]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see what happened one way and you see it the other way. And while I can definitely see where you're coming from (even if I have a different conclusion) it seems that you're saying that I "make excuses for Woodson just because he's Woodson." I don't think you're even trying to see what I'm seeing, just undermining my point by saying that I'm making excuses instead of looking at whether what I say has validity or not. So I'd just prefer to exit this discussion.

Not trying to make this difficult. I have to be honest, I'm really not sure what you are trying to say, other than you seem to take exception to any characterization of Woodson's play that is not favorable. Sure you put in disclaimers about how he wasn't perfect, but vast majority of your posts are efforts to defend him.

I'll try to clearly state my point:

Bush is a convenient scapegoat and I haven't seen or heard much that convinces me that he played all that poorly. I get that people are pissed about the loss and saw lots of pass yards given up and that Bush is an easy target. Woodson was brought up to show how the same conclusions made about Bush could make everyone's favorite (mine too) look poor as well.

And I'll say this: I don't know how Bush played. Because he isn't a high profile defender, I don't think anyone really keys in on just him like they do Clay Matthews, Charles Woodson, Cullen Jenkins, or Nick Collins (and in this forum Atari Bigby). All I know about Bush is the one play that was already stated. I know, if Woodson was manned up on Fitzgerald all game--and I don't know that he was--Fitzgerald had four catches for 41 yards that weren't TDs and two catches for (I think) 77 yards for TDs. There is lively debate all over that at least the second one was offensive PI. If it is, I can't blame Woodson for that one. The first one I think their legs got tangled and Woodson ended up on the ground. I can't blame him for poor coverage on that one. It was just as likely that Fitzgerald would be the one on the ground as Woodson. And here's the kicker. If it was Bush instead of Woodson in all of those plays, my argument would be the same. I don't care if it was Tramon Williams, Josh Bell, or Brandon Underwood on those particular plays. The first Fitzgerald TD wasn't the defender's fault because the defender was competetive on the route and got tripped up (didn't slip, didn't sit down and cry in the dirt, didn't run the wrong way, wasn't three steps behind the receiver, etc). The second Fitzgerald TD I would have been just as adamant was an offensive PI if it was Bell, Bigby, Bush, Underwood, Collins, Jenkins, Harris, Raji, Pickett, Hawk, Barnett, Chillar, etc. Now do you get where I'm coming from? I'm not making excuses. I just think the particular plays that are being highlighted as bad plays by Woodson aren't bad plays, and wouldn't be by anyone--including Bush.

[SkinBasket]

Bush is also a special teamer originally slated as a 4th backup safety.

Doucet is a 2nd year player slated as a 5th/6th backup WR. Of course it doesn't matter much since Bush didn't bother covering him half the time. Which is why you don't see Bush in your highlight films.

This is fun. Let's see...when Woodson is blamed it is the refs fault...or is it that the posters can't possibly know the responsibilities on every play...ect...

Yet it is easy to blame Bush because we can assume that every catch by the 3rd WR was his fault.

See my point?

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

[sharpe1027]

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

Read the post I was responding to, which was trying to compare Bush to Woodson. I was pointing out that a comparison between Bush and Woodson is silly.

As for Bush's alleged inability to do anything but stand around, I don't buy that. The few replays I saw with guys all turned around involved Lee or Underwood. Maybe Bush messed up, but I find it much more likely that Lee and Underwood didn't have a clue.

I agree about the pressure.

[Smidgeon]

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

Read the post I was responding to, which was trying to compare Bush to Woodson. I was pointing out that a comparison between Bush and Woodson is silly.

As for Bush's alleged inability to do anything but stand around, I don't buy that. The few replays I saw with guys all turned around involved Lee or Underwood. Maybe Bush messed up, but I find it much more likely that Lee and Underwood didn't have a clue.

I agree about the pressure.

I call Hogwash! Lee's on IR. There goes your credibility... Just what game were you watching?

[MichiganPackerFan]

It was entirely and exclusively Bush's fault we lost that game, and if we cut him NOW, we may still have a chance to win, barring one-sided calls of course.

[sharpe1027]

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

Read the post I was responding to, which was trying to compare Bush to Woodson. I was pointing out that a comparison between Bush and Woodson is silly.

As for Bush's alleged inability to do anything but stand around, I don't buy that. The few replays I saw with guys all turned around involved Lee or Underwood. Maybe Bush messed up, but I find it much more likely that Lee and Underwood didn't have a clue.

I agree about the pressure.

I call Hogwash! Lee's on IR. There goes your credibility... Just what game were you watching?

I guess that proves it, Bush is certainly responsible for the loss! In all seriousness, what exactly is your point?

[MichiganPackerFan]

I guess that proves it, Bush is certainly responsible for the loss!

HEY! I JUST made that point. No more stealing my ideas.

[Smidgeon]

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

Read the post I was responding to, which was trying to compare Bush to Woodson. I was pointing out that a comparison between Bush and Woodson is silly.

As for Bush's alleged inability to do anything but stand around, I don't buy that. The few replays I saw with guys all turned around involved Lee or Underwood. Maybe Bush messed up, but I find it much more likely that Lee and Underwood didn't have a clue.

I agree about the pressure.

I call Hogwash! Lee's on IR. There goes your credibility... Just what game were you watching?

I guess that proves it, Bush is certainly responsible for the loss! In all seriousness, what exactly is your point?

First of all, I never said that Bush was responsible for the loss. All I've ever said about Bush was that I saw one play where he was a couple steps behind on a drag route (I think it's called a drag route) and made the tackle after the catch. My point is that I personally don't think Woodson played as badly as some were saying he did based on highlight cut-ups of the game. I stated my case for the plays on why I didn't think he had an awful game.

The reason I think the Packers lost was because they weren't perfect on offense. Warner was so red-hot that the only way to beat them was to outscore him. With a missed FG on both sides, one punt on both sides, only one three and out by Arizona, and only one turnover by Arizona, Green Bay had to be flawless to win the game.

[SkinBasket]

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

Read the post I was responding to, which was trying to compare Bush to Woodson. I was pointing out that a comparison between Bush and Woodson is silly.

As for Bush's alleged inability to do anything but stand around, I don't buy that. The few replays I saw with guys all turned around involved Lee or Underwood. Maybe Bush messed up, but I find it much more likely that Lee and Underwood didn't have a clue.

I agree about the pressure.

I alleged that Bigby has the unique inability to do anything other than stand around, not Bush. Bush has the unique ability to move really fast in random directions completely unrelated to the coverage scheme. If we could meld them into one player, we still wouldn't have a functional safety.

I don't really blame Bush or Bigby or Chillar for their inadequacies. I blame Thompson for having such troubles finding a safety or two and I blame the defensive line for having such a poor game. We know what these other guys are, and we needed to find a way to keep their role limited ala Bigby, or on the bench completely.

[sharpe1027]

You want to excuse Bush's inability to play any position on this defense by pointing out his position on the depth chart. I was simply pointing out the guy he was supposed to be covering most of the time is just as low on his depth chart. Bush repeatedly followed the wrong receiver in bunch sets, which not only allows his guy to gun around like a horny unicorn in a field filled with golden sunshine, but also fucks the rest of the coverage for that play. Between his ineptitude and Bigby's inability to do anything other than stand around, there really wasn't much to be done when we couldn't generate pressure in base sets and were forced into dime.

Read the post I was responding to, which was trying to compare Bush to Woodson. I was pointing out that a comparison between Bush and Woodson is silly.

As for Bush's alleged inability to do anything but stand around, I don't buy that. The few replays I saw with guys all turned around involved Lee or Underwood. Maybe Bush messed up, but I find it much more likely that Lee and Underwood didn't have a clue.

I agree about the pressure.

I alleged that Bigby has the unique inability to do anything other than stand around, not Bush. Bush has the unique ability to move really fast in random directions completely unrelated to the coverage scheme. If we could meld them into one player, we still wouldn't have a functional safety.

I don't really blame Bush or Bigby or Chillar for their inadequacies. I blame Thompson for having such troubles finding a safety or two and I blame the defensive line for having such a poor game. We know what these other guys are, and we needed to find a way to keep their role limited ala Bigby, or on the bench completely.

My mistake on Bigby, I missed that transition. I think we at least found out why Bigby is our starter, our backup was worse.

I'm not really sure that Bush played that badly. I still think it is a conclusion people reach because they see a busted coverage and assume it's the fault of the latest scapegoat. Maybe Bush was responsible, but frankly the problems I saw with him up until this point were more about reacting to the ball and being a step slow or just slightly out of position.