WHY OH WHY didnt we make this trade?!

[Patler]

Last year Ginn had 24.9 yds/kick return and Jordy had 25.4, a difference of .6 yards. Ginn had two TDs and Jordy had none. Personally, I'd take the TDs and give up .6 yards.

Blackmon has better stats for punt returns, but when Jordy had to step in he was terrible.

I can't tell you that he would be better than Nelson or Blackmon for sure, but I'd think he'd at least be competitive. I'm not going out on a limb to say that I'm pretty sure that he'd be more useful as a WR than Swain.

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

I agree with evrything that you said about Ginn. However a 5th!!! That in my opinion is worth taking a look. Great signing by SF.

Ya, I can see that, sort of. Had the Packers been the ones to make the trade I would have been OK with it, but I'm not going to lament the fact they didn't. Basically, I don't look at Ginn as an more of a sure thing to improve the team than any 5th round pick they might find. So I can't say it is a "great" signing by SF, anymore than I will look at any 5th round pick as a "great" pick. Just a guy who might help, might not help, or might not even be here come September.

[Tarlam!]

I remember thinking he was a reach being taken where he was. I had him going late first, early second. And I only saw him player a couple times, but he certainly flashed at times.

Well, we're gonna find out first hand if Ginn is a player, since the 49ers are coming to Lambeau this season.

Patler, I know you've nailed it with the stats - you always do. Rarely would I contradict you, but this time I have to, I'm afraid.

Well, no, let me correct myself. My gut contradicts you.

My gut tells me, Ginn could have been better if he wasn't in that Dolphins transitional organisation. Also, the fact that he was booed upon selection wasn't helpful - a bit like our own Harrell. It must be very confidence-robbing when you hear yourself being booed.

My gut tells me he would have been a star in Green Bay and he will do great
in SFC.

Personally, I'll be comparing who we nab in the 4th to Ginn.

[Fritz]

I remember thinking he was a reach being taken where he was. I had him going late first, early second. And I only saw him player a couple times, but he certainly flashed at times.

Well, we're gonna find out first hand if Ginn is a player, since the 49ers are coming to Lambeau this season.

Patler, I know you've nailed it with the stats - you always do. Rarely would I contradict you, but this time I have to, I'm afraid.

Well, no, let me correct myself. My gut contradicts you.

My gut tells me, Ginn could have been better if he wasn't in that Dolphins transitional organisation. Also, the fact that he was booed upon selection wasn't helpful - a bit like our own Harrell. It must be very confidence-robbing when you hear yourself being booed.

My gut tells me he would have been a star in Green Bay and he will do great
in SFC.

Personally, I'll be comparing who we nab in the 4th to Ginn.

Then again, Tar, the Packers' special teams blocking has been pretty poor the last couple years (well, they're good at blocking in the back) so who's to say that Ginn's numbers would have been better in GB?

I'm with Patler on this one. He's a guy. A guy who had a big name and has speed, but has not done too much in the NFL. I think a fifth round pick is about right for him, but as someone pointed out, since the Niners pick ahead of GB, the Pack would have to have moved up or given up a fourth to get Ginn. And that, too me, would be too much to pay.

[Tarlam!]

I think a fifth round pick is about right for him, but as someone pointed out, since the Niners pick ahead of GB, the Pack would have to have moved up or given up a fourth to get Ginn. And that, too me, would be too much to pay.

Ja, that's why I'll be comparing what our #4 does in comparison to Ginn.

Apparently, Ginn bad-mouthed a heckler on twitter. Quite vulgar language, which raises some eyebrows.

I'll be delighted if my gut feeling on is totally wrong and Ginn remains JAG, especially when he comes to Lambeau.

[twoseven]

using past stats to try and prove how someone will play in another system is hardly effective considering what Desmond Howard did prior to GB and what he accomplished for us in 96'.

and will blackmon has been great when he has not be sidelined with an injury, and that's been few and far in between.

[Fritz]

I think a fifth round pick is about right for him, but as someone pointed out, since the Niners pick ahead of GB, the Pack would have to have moved up or given up a fourth to get Ginn. And that, too me, would be too much to pay.

Ja, that's why I'll be comparing what our #4 does in comparison to Ginn.

Apparently, Ginn bad-mouthed a heckler on twitter. Quite vulgar language, which raises some eyebrows.

I'll be delighted if my gut feeling on is totally wrong and Ginn remains JAG, especially when he comes to Lambeau.

In fact, if he'd be less than a JAG at Lambeau and cough up the football a couple times, that'd be even better...

[Cleft Crusty]

My sources tell me that Joey Jamison will be available in the sixth round.

[sharpe1027]

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

Before last year Jordy Nelson's average per return was horrendous at about 18.9. So, what does that prove? Which is more relevant, stats from two years ago or last year? Either way, the stats are in Ginn's favor.

Also, could you explain where the 20-30 yards and 15-25 yards come from? If you are discounting Ginn's long TDs, shouldn't we also be normalizing Jordy's yards by taking away his longest runs?

I'm only using the stats because you used them in an effort to prove your point in the first place, I completely agree that they don't tell the whole story.

[The Leaper]

Jordy isn't much of a kick returner...but giving up a 4th for Ginn, who offers next to nothing as a receiver, would have been dumb.

[Tarlam!]

giving up a 4th for Ginn, who offers next to nothing as a receiver, would have been dumb.

Maybe. Pick #122 (50 points) versus pick#145 (33.5 points). Miami didn't have a 5th. Now they do.

If the teams had swapped 6th's plus TT's 5th, the Pack could have perhaps had this guy.

His draft status put him under all sorts of pressure to be the #1 WR. Cam Cameron lasted how long? And the Tuna is a bit like the new male in a Lion pack - he just kills off the young from the previous dominent male.

One things certain, he's not expected to be the #1 receiver now. If he was playing poorly due to his environment/ the pressure, then this seems a small price to pay.

I hope I'm wrong about this, I really do. At any rate, according to his twitter account, I doubt he's Packer People.

[Patler]

using past stats to try and prove how someone will play in another system is hardly effective considering what Desmond Howard did prior to GB and what he accomplished for us in 96'.

and will blackmon has been great when he has not be sidelined with an injury, and that's been few and far in between.

The problem with Desmond Howard was that prior to coming to Green Bay teams tried to focus on using him as a wide receiver. He was not used a lot returning kicks or punts. He had more returns in one year at Green Bay than in four seasons prior to '96. (I have a vague recollection of the Packers having to convince him to focus on being a return man, not a receiver. I might be thinking of someone else.)

For Howard, it was more of a change in opportunity than in performance.

[Patler]

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

Before last year Jordy Nelson's average per return was horrendous at about 18.9. So, what does that prove? Which is more relevant, stats from two years ago or last year? Either way, the stats are in Ginn's favor.

Also, could you explain where the 20-30 yards and 15-25 yards come from? If you are discounting Ginn's long TDs, shouldn't we also be normalizing Jordy's yards by taking away his longest runs?

I'm only using the stats because you used them in an effort to prove your point in the first place, I completely agree that they don't tell the whole story.

I didn't dig down in the stats. The ranges were just thrown in as a hypothetical to emphasize a point, not intended to reflect any fact for either player. Had I wanted to do that I would have used exact averages, not such a large range. My point for it was that TDs mean little to me if not coupled with a high overall average, because if you have two long TDs and a so-so overall average, without the two TDs you are not very good on the other returns. I will gladly take a player from whom you can expect 20-30 yards every return, never getting beyond midfield, over a player from whom you usually get only 15-25, but occasionally get a TD. Whether Ginn. Nelson or anyone else actually fits in those categories, I haven't bothered to look.

My main point is simply this. Ginn has shown nothing in my mind that leads me to believe he would necessarily be an improvement over someone the Packers already have, whether it be Jordy Nelson, Will Blackmon or Tramon Williams; or someone they might pick this year. I can't even say it is likely that he would be. As a result, I do not at all wish the Packers had made the trade, though if they had I would have been indifferent to it.

[sharpe1027]

I didn't dig down in the stats. The ranges were just thrown in as a hypothetical to emphasize a point, not intended to reflect any fact for either player. Had I wanted to do that I would have used exact averages, not such a large range. My point for it was that TDs mean little to me if not coupled with a high overall average, because if you have two long TDs and a so-so overall average, without the two TDs you are not very good on the other returns. I will gladly take a player from whom you can expect 20-30 yards every return, never getting beyond midfield, over a player from whom you usually get only 15-25, but occasionally get a TD. Whether Ginn. Nelson or anyone else actually fits in those categories, I haven't bothered to look.

My main point is simply this. Ginn has shown nothing in my mind that leads me to believe he would necessarily be an improvement over someone the Packers already have, whether it be Jordy Nelson, Will Blackmon or Tramon Williams; or someone they might pick this year. I can't even say it is likely that he would be. As a result, I do not at all wish the Packers had made the trade, though if they had I would have been indifferent to it.

I too would take someone that averaged 5 yards more per return as well; however, 5 yards per return is a very large difference, not relevant to any true numbers, and thus a straw man argument. Not to mention that just about the only way you will ever see that much disparity is if the one player consistently breaks large gains and the other does not. Making up a hypothetical that is the other way around just seems unrealistic.

My main point is simply that Ginn has shown something in my mind that leads me to believe he is an improvement over Jordy Nelson and Bret Swain, whether as a WR or a kick returner. He would also be better than either of those two as a backup PR to Blackmon, which history has shown us is necessary due to his injuries.

There are no guarantees, but I would not have minded if the Packers had picked him up for something around a 5th.

[Patler]

Players with 10 yard ranges of "expected returns" having a 5 yard overlap could have the same overall average. But that is also my point. I will take the player who gets that average from a smaller deviation worst-to-best, than the player with the larger deviation worst-to-best. I prefer consistency.

[Fritz]

I believe you are right about Howard. He wanted to be seen as a receiver, a complete player, not just a return guy. But he couldn't get off the jams at the line of scrimmage.

When he finally realized that he could best make his mark as a return guy, he settled in quite nicely.