You've gotta appreciate Chris Havel.

[woodbuck27]

Best of alltime is a bit much but he is definitely top 10.

Thanks b bulldog.That means alot, a moi.

How many QB's have had more 3000 yard passing seasons?

Who will break Dan Marino's passing TD recors first?

Who has the best chance today to break all of Dan Marino's career pasing records?

Someone who is OURS.

GO PACKERS - as goes F-A-V-R-E !!!

Rip em Brett !!!!!!

[mngolf19]

I truly believe that you can't go by wins or stats alone. You just have to feel whether or not a QB was good or great. My opinion, from the other side, is that Favre has the attitude on the field, effort in the games, turned around a floundering franchise, and has always been an ambassador for the NFL. Wins and stats at some point cannot be ignored no matter what you may think of the QB(Bradshaw). Bradshaw was not great, above avg, but played on great teams. So he gets cred. In putting everything together, I have to give Favre top 10. Marino and Manning are exactly alike each other, and at some point if Ind keeps winning and the stats go up, Manning will be viewed like Marino and top 10 even if he never wins a SB.

[TPF]

Yeah, good stuff from Havel.

[Tony Oday]

Marino is the best QB ever sorry he is.
Top 10 all time no order:
Marino
Favre
Tarkington
Elway
Manning(he will go down as a top guy)
Bradshaw
Montana
Young
Namath
Tie between Brady and Moon

This is what I think the current ones are.

[Badgepack]

I think Johnny Unitas has to be on any top ten list.

[ahaha]

I think Johnny Unitas has to be on any top ten list.

Probably should be #1. He was the original 'Field General'.

Favre, Marino, Elway, and Montana all tied for #2.

[Lare]

With the Packers' and Favre's troubles last year it has become fashionable in the national media to kick us while we're down.

Dr. Z writes for the east coast readers and gives them what they want. Just wait and see what happens if/when the Packers & Favre have a successful season. He'll be writing articles saying "I told you so!"

[FritzDontBlitz]

Marino is the best QB ever sorry he is.
Top 10 all time no order:
Marino
Favre
Tarkington
Elway
Manning(he will go down as a top guy)
Bradshaw
Montana
Young
Namath
Tie between Brady and Moon

This is what I think the current ones are.

hmmmm.

i was gonna raise hell about your selection of fran tarkenton as a top 10 quarterback, but then i saw you were from minnesota lol

[HarveyWallbangers]

Typical Dr. Z writing. Rip Favre all you want for last year. Most of us have, but he says his game has deteriorated in the last few years. This is a dude that guided Green Bay to 14 years of non-losing seasons, 6 division titles, and 11 playoff berths (probably would have been 12--if he had started the first two games of 1992). The Packers were 10-6 in 2004 and 10-6 in 2003. His stats in those two years were:

10-6, 65.4 completion %, 3361 yards, 32 TDs, 21 interceptions, 90.4 passer rating

10-6, 64.1 completion %, 4088 yards, 30 TDs, 17 interceptions, 92.4 pass rating

Deteriorated? Hardly. Not as good as he was in the mid 90s? Absolutely, but don't most players start tailing off in their mid 30s? He's still been pretty damn good. That seems a little harsh, and just another typical backhanded dig at Favre. He could have called out the likes of Curtis Martin, Dan Marino, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, etc. the same way for how they ended their careers--yet Dr. Z continues to single out Favre.

Blind faith
Dr. Z, SI.com

So there I was, plodding my way through the thickets and forests of the AFC East, trying to compile enough sensible information for my scouting reports for Sports Illustrated, the AFC East being the Four B's division (three Belichicks and the Bills), and a coach came over to me and said, sotto voce, "Hey, you see what they wrote about you in Green Bay?"

Now this is very big in One Voice country because since two of the teams run by former Belichick acolytes -- the Jets under Mangini, the Dolphins under Saban -- follow their ex-boss' lead and forbid you to speak to assistant coaches, I would assume the forbidding goes both ways. To have one seek me out for comment is indeed stunning, even if it happens to be someone I've known half my life.

"Ripped you a new"... uh, "Ripped you pretty severely, he did," deep throat said, and he went on to tell me about this guy who hinted very strongly at creeping senility for the Old Doc because of my comments about Brett Favre and the Hall of Fame. And naturally the ripper got it wrong, the whole thrust of what I was saying.

I wrote that I would vote for Favre when his name came up for enshrinement. I said that if he had another 29-interception season, he might run the risk of not being a first-ballot choice. I said that his game had tanked badly in the last few years.

This was interpreted to mean that I had no respect for the QB or his career. Lifetime stats were provided by this writer, including interceptions. I guess this guy was so dense that he didn't understand that the fact that Favre is only 22 picks behind George Blanda's all-time career record is a negative stat. The reason why I mention all this now is that some of my loyal e-mailers, who are certainly blessed with more IQ points than this Green Bay creep, seem to be in his corner. Oh, the shame of it!

Kenn of Madison, Wisc. (where else?) defends Favre against what he considers Steve Young's bogus championship ("the Packers didn't have to 'buy' Favre's championship by circumventing the salary cap rules like the 49ers did"). Not a bad topic, but he failed to address the point I made about the decline in his hero's game.

Cris of Toronto is a friendly chap but he feels that too much of the Packers' woes last year were laid off on the QB. Jack K. of Vernon Hills, Ill., rips me for calling Tom Brady the ultimate warrior and neglecting Favre's amazing run of consecutive games, and he's right. I should have reserved that title for Brett. Sorry. It was an oversight.

Finally Richard, a Packers fan from Huntsville, Ala., agrees with me -- surprise! "His ruptured duck pass in overtime in the infamous 4th and 23 playoff game against the Eagles cost them a Super Bowl trip, yet everyone goes, 'Well, Brett's having fun out there.'"

Andrew has selected three negative verdicts on my piece, and only one positive, which is his way of telling me that sentiment is running three-to-one against me. In other words, I am facing a Revolt of the Cheeseheads. OK Cheeseheads, before you get too revolting, let me explain to you what you fail to understand.

My son Michael was four-years old when Ohio State's legendary coach, Woody Hayes, was firmly entrenched in his nutso phase, ripping up sideline markers, etc. Everything he did, no matter how antisocial, was applauded by his blind followers. I wrote a column for the New York Post called "Woody Hayes Lives in My House," and I said his name was Michael and he was four.

In other words, he used the mechanism of a tantrum to get what he wanted, and in the finest traditions of negative reinforcement, it usually worked. The blind followers of Woody and their Buckeyes applauded his ridiculous tirades, and I wrote that they were not helping him at all. They were setting him up for the knockoff. And it came on Dec. 29, 1978, in the Gator Bowl, when Woody punched a Clemson defensive tackle, Charlie Bauman, after an interception. He was fired the next day.

Favre's techniques have been allowed to deteriorate to the point that on some of his interceptions ... well, it looked like he just didn't give a damn. It was as if no coach had the guts to criticize an idol. Or even try to correct him. What's wrong with yanking a guy after a disastrous play and sitting him down for a series or two?

"Brett told me," said one of Favre's NFL buddies last year, "that it just seemed like the team didn't know how to figure out a way to stop the losing. It took the heart out of him. He said there were times he felt like he just didn't care out there."

If I were a Packers fan, or even one of the hometown writers who likes to rip outsiders, that would worry me more than anything, not what some guy was writing a thousand miles away.

[Packnut]

QB's

I believe comparing QB's is a very gray area do to the fact that they do not play with the same talent around them. My arguement for Favre would be this:

If you go through the list of great QB's, Favre has played with less talent than many of the top ones. He has turned pedestrian WR's into stars, (Freeman for one).

Another common thread among the great QB's is having 2 solid star type WR's. How many seasons has Brett had that? If you had given Brett Duper and Clayton for most of his career, I would argue his #'s would be better than Marino's.

Another common thread with the great QB's was and is the Quality of their Coaches. Having an idiot like Sherman, robbed Favre of what should have been his best years. To say the Packer offense was un-imaginative under Sherman would be an under-statement.

I will never believe that you can say one QB is the best. I guess the criteria would have to be set first. I consider Montana one of the best, but look at the talent and coach he had.

When evaluating #4 I believe it's foolish not to admit that throughout his career, he has forced passes into tight coverage, but he also has made throws that no other QB has ever made.

[Partial]

Re: QB's

I believe comparing QB's is a very gray area do to the fact that they do not play with the same talent around them. My arguement for Favre would be this:

If you go through the list of great QB's, Favre has played with less talent than many of the top ones. He has turned pedestrian WR's into stars, (Freeman for one).

Another common thread among the great QB's is having 2 solid star type WR's. How many seasons has Brett had that? If you had given Brett Duper and Clayton for most of his career, I would argue his #'s would be better than Marino's.

Another common thread with the great QB's was and is the Quality of their Coaches. Having an idiot like Sherman, robbed Favre of what should have been his best years. To say the Packer offense was un-imaginative under Sherman would be an under-statement.

I will never believe that you can say one QB is the best. I guess the criteria would have to be set first. I consider Montana one of the best, but look at the talent and coach he had.

When evaluating #4 I believe it's foolish not to admit that throughout his career, he has forced passes into tight coverage, but he also has made throws that no other QB has ever made.

offense was very successful, though. While his int's may have been higher, his other numbers were through the roof with Sherman.

Circumstances are never going to be exactly equal. That's why its impossible to judge. Perhaps all those other receivers only looked good because of their quarterbacks too? It's impossible to judge.

[Packnut]

Re: QB's

offense was very successful, though. While his int's may have been higher, his other numbers were through the roof with Sherman.

Circumstances are never going to be exactly equal. That's why its impossible to judge. Perhaps all those other receivers only looked good because of their quarterbacks too? It's impossible to judge.[/quote]


Can you imagine the kind of #'s Brett would have put up with a coach like Walsh? I agree with you that Brett put up great #'s with Sherman, which is a credit to Favre, more so than Shermy. For the last few years that offense was way to predictable which has been part of the reason for Brett's play slipping.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree it's hard to evaluate, but it's hard to look past no losing seasons until his 14th year, 139 wins, second all-time in TDs, 11 playoff appearances in 13 full-time seasons (and possibly 12 of 14 if he plays the first 2 games in 1992), 6 division titles, 11-9 playoff record (against other playoff quality teams), 8 or 9 Pro Bowls, 3 MVPs, incredible games played streak, 2 Super Bowl berths and a Super Bowl win.

Those are numbers that get you talked about as the best of all-time. The interceptions may be up--although they aren't much higher than Elway and Marino in their careers--but the totality of the numbers shows one of the all-time greats. His teams wons every year--until last year. It didn't matter who surrounded him (good or bad receivers, good or bad running game, good or bad OL, good or bad defense). Whether it was his golden arm, clutch play, leadership, toughness, escapability, etc., he got it done.

[pbmax]

I am glad to see that Zimmerman gave Favre back the Ultimate title. Meaningless though it is, at least he admitted he blew that.

Z has been working the unadulterated adulation despite undisciplined and bad interception angle for a couple of years now, and it seems the angle got in the way of a serious comment about the man's career.

There are valid criticisms of Favre's game, especially the last few years, but his writeup was a simply a rant. Z can be funny this way, but is far more interesting when he tells us something we don't know or can't see.

Favre has been far too willing to throw the ball up for grabs since the inception of the Sherman era, and I personally blame Sherm Lewis for this. He, Rhodes (help us please McCarthy was there as well) stretched the West Coast offense to idiotic lengths in 1999.

And Favre has too often tried to be the Mad Bomber (Daryl Lamonica [tm]) at critical junctures during the games. Eagles playoff game was one example. His long bomb accuracy was never his strongest suit. He was best when he waited for plays to develop deep OR took a broken or covered play, bought himself time by moving, then threw deep on the run.

Since he was a young veteran, he was able to recognize one on one coverage, think Super Bowl vs. Patriots, and defeat it. But his ability to do so was compromised by less talent at WR and, perhaps, age.

But these have been his tendencies since he was young. What has changed is that Holmgren is not here and until Walker, he had a string of mediocre WR corps.

Neither development will impact his chances for the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, IMHO. But I am worried about the WR corp this year. We really need the TEs to be all that they can be.

[ZachMN]

Slingin' Sammy Baugh IS in the equation

and Marino is the best -

Favre right behind; a little too unpolished but close