You've gotta appreciate Chris Havel.

[MJZiggy]

Welcome to the forum ZachMN. Hope you enjoy it here.

I don't think if Favre has a bad year this year it would put him in jeopardy of not being a first ballot inductee. And let's keep it in the singular here. The man had one bad year and we've beat the reasons why beyond pulp right down to juice. How many other sure-fire HOF'ers lost the first ballot nod for bad performances in their 15th and 16th years. Oh yeah, that's right. Most of them don't make it to 15 or 16 years. Dr. Z needs to lay off a little bit.

[Packnut]

Z

Z is a freaking idiot. Not just because of the Favre issue, but because his ignorance of the NFL is mind-numbing. He NEVER adds anything new and spends most of his articles, rambling on and on about nothing.

I could care less about his wife or the fact her her is red. It has NOTHING to do with football. Like I've stated before, this guy has something on the editor which is the only way he could keep his job.

[pbmax]

Marino is the best QB ever sorry he is.
Top 10 all time no order:
Marino
Favre
Tarkington
Elway
Manning(he will go down as a top guy)
Bradshaw
Montana
Young
Namath
Tie between Brady and Moon

This is what I think the current ones are.

Montana
Unitas
Marino
Elway
Otto Graham
Sammy Baugh
Favre
Tarkenton
Joe Willie
Manning/Brady

[pbmax]

Re: Z

Z is a freaking idiot. Not just because of the Favre issue, but because his ignorance of the NFL is mind-numbing. He NEVER adds anything new and spends most of his articles, rambling on and on about nothing.

I could care less about his wife or the fact her her is red. It has NOTHING to do with football. Like I've stated before, this guy has something on the editor which is the only way he could keep his job.

Packnut, Z has forgotten more football than you'll ever know. But you are right, if you read him straight for NFL news every week, the pickings can be slim. Especially in the offseason.

However, besides NFL Matchup, he is the only commentator I know who watches the games closely enough to figure out who is doing what on the line of scrimmage and call it correctly. Forget the Redhead, he actually studies the games and doesn't just watch the ball. That makes him a worthy read. Better than King.

[woodbuck27]

I think Johnny Unitas has to be on any top ten list.

Your certainly correct. People just forget how great Unitas was. He is "in fact " arguably "THE GREATEST QB" of ALL TIME and a shoo-in as one of the TOP FIVE.

[wist43]

You have to consider the source... Dr. Z and SI have absolutely no credibility.

That said, it's a shame Favre didn't receive any coaching - none - after Holmgren left. His talent was completely wasted, and we as Packer fans are going to be looking back in 10, 15, 20 years and lamenting "what could have been".

The Packers should have won a minimum of 3 SB's with Favre at the controls.

Who's to blame???

Wolf - For not providing enough surrounding talent, and for hiring Rhodes and Sherman... especially for hiring Sherman.

Sherman - Just b/c he's Sherman... at least he went out and got people he thought would get them over the top, but he sucks as a talent evaluator.

[Packnut]

Re: Z

Z is a freaking idiot. Not just because of the Favre issue, but because his ignorance of the NFL is mind-numbing. He NEVER adds anything new and spends most of his articles, rambling on and on about nothing.

I could care less about his wife or the fact her her is red. It has NOTHING to do with football. Like I've stated before, this guy has something on the editor which is the only way he could keep his job.

Packnut, Z has forgotten more football than you'll ever know. But you are right, if you read him straight for NFL news every week, the pickings can be slim. Especially in the offseason.

However, besides NFL Matchup, he is the only commentator I know who watches the games closely enough to figure out who is doing what on the line of scrimmage and call it correctly. Forget the Redhead, he actually studies the games and doesn't just watch the ball. That makes him a worthy read. Better than King.

How the hell can you forget what you have never learned? I guess for you to say he's better than King sums it up better than I ever could. King gives info thatyou don't get anywhere else due to his contacts. When the hell did Z ever tell us something we did'nt already know?

Z's comments about Favre proves my point. He has no concept of playing QB in the NFL or the talent a QB need's to succeed.

His articles are for amusement only and never contain and real substance.

He follows what others write and has had an anti-Packer bias for quite a while.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Honestly, I don't know how Joe Namath could be in the top 10. He wasn't a top QB for long enough. He was good for a few years, and was a shell of himself at the tailend of his career. His stats are worse than Vinny Testaverde's stats. I know stats can be meaningless, but it's hard to believe somebody playing in the 60s and 70s (not the 30s and 40s) with more interceptions than TDs in his career is even a consideration.

I think rating eras is pretty silly. Plus, I didn't see a lot of the old timers, but my rankings would probably go something like this:

1 Unitas
2 Montana
3 Graham
4 Elway
5 Favre (will pass Elway if he breaks Marino's records)
6 Marino
7 Starr
8 Baugh
9 Bradshaw
10 Brady (will be in the top 5 if NE continues to win)
11 Staubach
12 Tarkenton
13 Manning (will move up if he wins a title)
14 Aikman
15 Fouts

[woodbuck27]

My Top Ten list of NFL QB's ALL Time.

1. Joe Montana – San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs

San Francisco 49ers' 55-10 win over Denver Broncos in Super Bowl XXIV earned Montana a record third MVP award. While Montana never had Marino's rocket-launch arm or Elway's scrambling ability, he did whatever he had to in the brilliant 49ers' offense for San Francisco to win. To say Montana did the simple things well would be to understate his ability. Equally some say his offensive line and receiving corps were so good his job was made easier. Just look at the record books and you will see why Montana wears his greatness tag with ease. But make sure you have time - it's a very long section.

2. Johnny Unitas – Baltimore Colts

Johnny Unitas was named the Greatest Quarterback Of All-Time in 1969 during a celebration to mark the NFL's 50th anniversary and 34 years on many would still feel he deserves that honour. From 1959-1972 Unitas served the Baltimore Colts with distinction, often calling his own plays (unusual in those days) - "it's like being in a huddle with God," said former Colts team-mate John Mackay.

Johnny U, who died in September 2002, retired in 1974 with 22 NFL records.

3. Dan Marino – Miami Dolphins

Just for now I'll sit him here,LOL.

No Super Bowl ring, but Dan Marino has more records than Virgin Megastore - 24 NFL regular season records and 37 in the same category for Miami Dolphins.

Had Miami's running game matched Air Marino...well, we'll never know. But in his 17-year career Marino stamped his personality on the Dolphins which earned him selection to nine Pro Bowls, while away from football few players have done more for charity.

4. Brett Favre – Green Bay Packers

The man of Iron - with one of the most powerful arms in football, Brett Favre has also been one of the most effective quarterbacks in NFL history. The most durable QB ! Favre doesn't miss a game (he sits at 221 consecutive starts in the regular season- an amazing record for an NFL QB) despite the battering the Green Bay Packers' leader has had to endure.

The NFL's only three-time MVP (1995-97) Favre ranks 2nd in four major passing catagories ( passing yards - passing attempts - passing completions - TD pass's) and third behind Marino and John Elway in Career wins at 139 and only needing nine wins to tie leader John Elway. Come On Packers !! Favre owns every Packer QB passing record that matters and trails Bart Starr in Super Bowl wins 2-1. Also wasn't it prior to last season that he was 29-0 at home, when the temperature is 34 degrees or below, one of the NFL's most wonderful stats. Brett Favre is also a very charitable human being - a fine person.

5. Terry Bradshaw – Pittsburgh Steelers

Four Super Bowl rings demands Terry Bradshaw's presence in the Top 10. Alot of people will argue that he was only a small part of a GREAT Team but didn't he call his own plays? Four Super Bowl rings - an unprecedented achievement and it would be a decade before Joe Montana matched Bradshaw ring-for-ring. If Pittsburgh Steelers' triumphs were heralded for the Steel Curtain defense Bradshaw went about his business to ensure a few points were put on the scoreboard. Maybe his numbers weren't stunning compared with others but four Super Bowl rings in six years is a powerful argument for Bradshaw's presence among the all-time greats.

6. John Elway – Denver Broncos

Does being a three-times losing Super Bowl quarterback make you a less than outstanding performer? Not in my book and John Elway belatedly became officially a winning quarterback (and I also think of Bills QB Jim Kelly) when he threw for 336 yards - the third highest total in Super Bowl - when Denver beat Atlanta Falcons in Super Bowl XXXIII for his second NFL title in a row.

Winning a hat trick of AFC Championships was not enough for some to elevate Elway to the highest level. But a great ambassador for his sport eventually got his just desserts when he was named MVP as the Falcons were grounded.

Elway is up there at the top of all QB passing records and sitss impressively at the top in Career wins with 148 to Marino's 147. Noone can take a top ten ranking as a QB from John Elway. Oh did i mention his record of comeback wins as a QB? Check that out, as it's near 50. Outstanding.

I rank Favre ahead of Elway because Brett isn't finished yet. See Dan Marino.

7. Fran Tarkenton - I see him as a Viking.

Francis Asbury Tarkenton. Almost instant star with four TD passes, first game, 1961. He moved to New York (1967), back to Vikings (1972) in stunning trades.

At retirement Mr. Excitement led lifetime passers in attempts (6,467), completions (3,686), yards (47,003), touchdowns (342). Fran Tarkenton was too exciting LOL , an elusive scrambler, Fran also rushed for 3,674 yards and 32 TDs. Fran Tarkenton led the Vikings to three Super Bowls. He was a Two-time All-NFL, and a Pro Bowl selection nine times. One awesome and dangerous player who went on to be pretty good as an announcer to in my view.

What a quarterback !

8. Here's one for you.

Y.A. Tittle - 1948-1950 Baltimore Colts (AAFC/NFL), 1951-1960 San Francisco 49ers, 1961-1964 New York Giants

The very first NFL GREAT QB I was aware of.

AAFC Rookie of Year, 1948. Joined 49ers in 1951 after Colts disbanded. Career record: 2,427 completions, 33,070 yards, 242 TDs, 13 games over 300 yards passing. Tittle paced 1961, 1962, 1963 Giants to division titles. He threw 33 TD passes in 1962, 36 in 1963. NFL's Most Valuable Player,
1961, 1963. All-NFL, 1957, 1961, 1962, 1963. . . Elected to seven Pro Bowls. An amazing QB that makes my list of Top ten All Time BEST.

9. Roger Staubach - Dallas Cowboys

Roger Staubach was the 1963 Heisman Trophy winner. A four-year Navy service preceded his pro play.

Staubach was noted for last-minute heroics, and he guided Dallas to four NFC titles, Super Bowl VI, XII wins. The MVP in Super Bowl VI. Roger was All-NFC five years . His career stats: 22,700 yards, 153 TDs passing; 2,264 yards, 20 TDs rushing and a 83.4 NFL passer rating, best ever at time of retirement.. Roger Staubach was a four-time NFL passing leader.

10. This is very difficult as there are so many great one's but I can't disappoint Packer fans.

Bart Starr – Green Bay Packers

Bart Starr may have been a 17th round draft pick in 1956 but he went on to become the winningest quarterback in football, leading the Green Bay Packers to victory in Super Bowl I and II when he was also named MVP. Starr - who was nicknamed Mr Quarterback - had a 82-24-4 record between 1960 and 1967 and three times led the league in passing. An early NFL "superstarr" his name will forever be etched in NFL and Packer history.

That's my TOP TEN ALL TIME NFL QB's.

[Terry]

Star has very unimpressive career stats. and they look real bad when you put them next to Favres. but many packer fans still consider Bart to be the better QB. mostly IMO because he was the QB of a team that one a lot of championships

Starr isn't considered great because of his stats. Those Packers were not a passing team. No team in the Black & Blue Division was a passing team then. Others here have said Favre is a better player. Of course he is. And a better athlete. But that doesn't make him a better quarterback. I'm not say he's worse either, but I see a lot of underestimation of Starr in this thread. Almost as if some people are practically reluctant to include him in the top ten. Because everyone's a sucker for the flash, for the passing. But all that passing in the modern game only accounts for about a third of so of NFL history.

Starr was great for a number of reasons. Remember, he called the plays. People say he only appeared great because he was on a great team. Well, then I say that being on a great team doesn't mean that Starr wasn't also great.

Lombardi hung onto Starr at the beginning in spite of really crappy stats in Starr's early, pre-Lombardi years. (And those years ruin his stats also, btw.) What he liked was Starr's field command, his command of the team, his field 'generalship'. He (Lombardi) also saw some technique weaknesses in Starr's passing that he figured (correctly) that he could work with and help Starr. Damn, the whole team was great because of Lombardi, not because they were all so damned great (for all you talent nuts).

Starr also didn't throw interceptions. Sure, he had some years that were worse than others. But he had one year in which he threw THREE interceptions. Now stop a second and get your mind around that - THREE interceptions. You think HE had a great receiver corps? Max McGee wasn't even a starting receiver when he played that SuperBowl hungover and after just a couple hours of sleep. Starr had another year with FOUR interceptions.

But in the end, Starr's greatness was in his cool and his presence and in his ability to manage and run the team during battle - no mean feat and definitely not a key attribute to good quarterbacking. He was one of the best.

Starr easily deserves to be in the top ten of QB's - maybe in the top five. I'll never understand Packer fans, of all people, who fail to realize Starr's strengths.

BTW, FritzDon'tBlitz ("i was gonna raise hell about your selection of fran tarkenton as a top 10 quarterback"), did you ever see Tarkenton play? I'll tell you, I watched him in the 60's when the Vikings were far from being a contender and when Tarkenton's best days were still in front of him (most of his great stats came in the 70's) and he was something else, let me tell you. He gave the Packers fits every damned time. I don't care what his stats were, no one will ever tell me that Tarkenton wasn't a great quarterback. He was as much or more a problem for the Packers than Johnny Unitas ever was (and there's no arguing that Unitas had one of the great arms - he also had zero patience with interceptions or quarterbacks who throw them, btw). Frankly, namby pamby Elway doesn't deserve to be talked about in the same room as any of these guys. No one thinks twice about putting that overrated Ponce in a top ten list - because he played for freakin' ever and had great STATS. Well, he also had sucky stats, depending on which stats you read. And he couldn't do zilch in Denver until Denver got a grreat running game going.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Good post, Terry. I don't agree with you on Elway though. His stats weren't always great, but his teams won (and they didn't have great talent) and there is no debate that he was clutch.

It's going to be REALLY hard for the QBs that started playing after 1993 to match the championships that guys like Montana, Graham, Starr, Bradshaw, etc. had. FA has given us parity. Brady is about the only one who has a shot at joining the "big winners" group.

[Noodle]

I'll second Harvey, excellent post Terry. I'm also a big Starr guy, as well as a big Bradshaw guy, because I've always viewed the QB's no. 1 job as being a winner.

I'm also on board with PBMax, except for the Namath thing, though it is hard to appreciate now how much he meant during his salad days. It wasn't just the guarantee, it was the attitude and swagger.

But PBMax is right about Z -- he's way better than that player suck up Peter King. Cripes, that's what Havel would be like if he wrote for SI. Z is especially good at knowing line talent, and he was right when he looked at tape of the Pack last year, as he'd heard that Clifton and Tausch were underrated, and decided that they were not.

[Fosco33]

I like the varying lists provided by Woody and Harvey. Both have good points and there's plenty of QBs to chose who've had great careers.



Dr Z wrote that we Packer fans should be more worried about Favre and less about his article. I then find it odd that he'd even pay attention to Havel. You could write, "If Dr Z weren't obsessed with Favre bashing, he wouldn't pay attention to a GB hometown writer's defense of the HOF QB."

Zimmerman is from Michigan and his ties lead to interstate football rivalry. I, for one, will steer away from Z's articles - there are plenty of other writers online.

[woodbuck27]

I like the varying lists provided by Woody and Harvey. Both have good points and there's plenty of QBs to chose who've had great careers.



Dr Z wrote that we Packer fans should be more worried about Favre and less about his article. I then find it odd that he'd even pay attention to Havel. You could write, "If Dr Z weren't obsessed with Favre bashing, he wouldn't pay attention to a GB hometown writer's defense of the HOF QB."

Zimmerman is from Michigan and his ties lead to interstate football rivalry. I, for one, will steer away from Z's articles - there are plenty of other writers online.

pbmax's list is a chance to learn.

[b bulldog]

Havel is an ass