Hargrove is locked up

[wist43]

Never.

Yes, he was sorely missed, especially on pass rush. But even to replace him with someone as good would leave other holes I am almost as worried about (runD, DBs and ROLB). While I have been playing Jenkins denier for almost a year and am enjoying the tin foil hat, I am otherwise quite serious about the additional areas of concern on D.

Unlike wist, I think the talent on D showed itself in individual plays last year. But I am most concerned about the play of Raji, who was not as stout as Pickett in the middle. Without that, the gap discipline disappeared. Trgovac is one of the coaches I was most impressed by early but he has his work cut out for him.

I give Raji a complete pass for last year... I actually felt bad for the guy as he had to basically hold up against 5 offensive linemen on just about every snap.

His situation was utterly hopeless... he was 1 of 2 NFL calibur DL on the roster, and Capers was playing his smoke and mirrors 2 man fronts what percentage of the time?? I can't necessarly blame Capers either, as he had nothing to work with... it's either get exotic and use smoke and mirrors, or resign yourself to rushing 3 and dropping 8 every snap.

The more Capers ran the Raji-10 defense, the more I worried about Raji's attitude and his ability to hold up physically... he seemed to keep a good attitude, but he was obviously worn down. TT needs to get Raji some help... I don't blame Raji for Raji's performance, I blame TT.

[Patler]

We all hope A. Hargrove is a gem; but we're looking at this whole defensive need issue in more certain terms.

If anyone expects Hargrove to be a gem, they will be very disappointed. All I hope for and expect is some incremental improvement over whoever he replaces. But Hargrove by himself will not turn around the defense. There are bigger questions, starting with the following:

Who is B.J. Raji, the dominating player of the latter part of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? This is a big issue for the DL, and I'm not real hopeful that the answer is the one we want. If Raji was simply playing over his head in 2010 (and I think he may have), there is a lot more work to do in fixing the defense.

Who is Tramon Williams, the shutdown corner of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? It's easy to blame this on his early injury, but so much of being a top CB is mental attitude, and Williams showed a lack of confidence in his play at times last year. Again, maybe the injury, but if he has allowed doubt to creep into his play.......

Who is Sam Shields, the raw rookie brimming with potential that he was in 2010, or the confused and undisciplined player he looked to be for much of 2010? At one point I thought he was coming around in mid-season, but when his timid tackling got him replaced by Bush in some nickel situations for the playoff game, I came to realize that the problem is deeper. This player needs an off-season of work in the worst way.

How much does Charles Woodson have left in his tank? This one concerns me a little too, Actually, more than a little.

Questions can be raised about the comparative, play 2010 vs. 2011, for almost every player on defense. I started a thread during the season suggesting that what we may have seen in 2010 was almost every defender having the best season of their career. It happens at times, a group of athletes "click" in the same season, and can never come close to it again. I think there was a lot of evidence for that with the Packers of 2010.

With that in mind, I am more interested in TT brining in 4, 5, 6 players to have roles on defense and perform those roles better than the players they replace.

[wist43]

If anyone expects Hargrove to be a gem, they will be very disappointed. All I hope for and expect is some incremental improvement over whoever he replaces. But Hargrove by himself will not turn around the defense. There are bigger questions, starting with the following:

Who is B.J. Raji, the dominating player of the latter part of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? This is a big issue for the DL, and I'm not real hopeful that the answer is the one we want. If Raji was simply playing over his head in 2010 (and I think he may have), there is a lot more work to do in fixing the defense.

Who is Tramon Williams, the shutdown corner of 2010, or the OK, but nothing special player he was during most of 2011? It's easy to blame this on his early injury, but so much of being a top CB is mental attitude, and Williams showed a lack of confidence in his play at times last year. Again, maybe the injury, but if he has allowed doubt to creep into his play.......

Who is Sam Shields, the raw rookie brimming with potential that he was in 2010, or the confused and undisciplined player he looked to be for much of 2010? At one point I thought he was coming around in mid-season, but when his timid tackling got him replaced by Bush in some nickel situations for the playoff game, I came to realize that the problem is deeper. This player needs an off-season of work in the worst way.

How much does Charles Woodson have left in his tank? This one concerns me a little too, Actually, more than a little.

Questions can be raised about the comparative, play 2010 vs. 2011, for almost every player on defense. I started a thread during the season suggesting that what we may have seen in 2010 was almost every defender having the best season of their career. It happens at times, a group of athletes "click" in the same season, and can never come close to it again. I think there was a lot of evidence for that with the Packers of 2010.

With that in mind, I am more interested in TT brining in 4, 5, 6 players to have roles on defense and perform those roles better than the players they replace.

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

[Patler]

I give Raji a complete pass for last year... I actually felt bad for the guy as he had to basically hold up against 5 offensive linemen on just about every snap.

His situation was utterly hopeless... he was 1 of 2 NFL calibur DL on the roster, and Capers was playing his smoke and mirrors 2 man fronts what percentage of the time?? I can't necessarly blame Capers either, as he had nothing to work with... it's either get exotic and use smoke and mirrors, or resign yourself to rushing 3 and dropping 8 every snap.

The more Capers ran the Raji-10 defense, the more I worried about Raji's attitude and his ability to hold up physically... he seemed to keep a good attitude, but he was obviously worn down. TT needs to get Raji some help... I don't blame Raji for Raji's performance, I blame TT.

I think that brings up an interesting question. Didn't they flip-flop Pickett and Raji last year from where they played in 2010? Should they move them back?

[Bretsky]

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

Pretty spot on, although I might give them credit for having a couple more than 6 or 7

[pbmax]

Then why? did Ted Thompson make this move? Is replacing Wynn with Hargrove smart, in your view?

Was money taken away from ie Donald Driver as reported. To add a questionable player that isn't 'a Green Bay Packer' character player?

Does those two facts send a positive message to the Packer locker room?

Donald Driver....Anthony Hargrove.

I might have missed this. Was it reported that Driver restructured?

[Patler]

I'm with you... but see my post above.

I would give the same pass to all of those guys... I put it all on TT. He knew his front seven was weak going into last year's draft, and he still went OT, WR, RB in the first 3 rounds - and while I like Cobb and Green, Sherrod is already looking like a bust, and the defense got no help at all.

So while TT restocked on offense, he failed to stock anything on defense, and it is showing. There's a decent core of players there, but it's got to be disheartening for them every time they take the field knowing they don't have enough talent up front to generate any pressure. It's hard to hold the real players accountable, when the reality is that the Packers are really only fielding 6 or 7 NFL calibur defenders on any given snap.

Ya, I have some real reservations about Sherrod too. Some guys come in and look confused, uncertain. Others look over matched. Confused players need to be coached, and experience often changes them quickly. There usually isn't much that can be done with a player who is simply over matched when he moves to a new level in his sport. Sherrod looked over matched at times. Projecting how a player who is very good at one level will do when he moves up to the next level is the most uncertain part of scouting in any sport.

While I think the net result from the defense can be attributed in large part to poor play from the front seven, that isn't an excuse for the poor individual performances by a lot of the players. Williams didn't cover or tackle the same as he did in 2010. Shields is a huge question. There was a confusion on defense that was not simply poor play up front. Too many players just performed poorly executing their own responsibilities.

[Bretsky]

Finley HAD to be resigned; you don't let talent like that slip away and the other TE's have shown little to nothing so far.

As I hadnoted many times, I'd have traded James Jones if possible and shuffled that money to the D after also restructuring Driver. You have a boatload of James Jones types and you can get them anytime in the draft

[Bretsky]

Ya, I have some real reservations about Sherrod too. Some guys come in and look confused, uncertain. Others look over matched. Confused players need to be coached, and experience often changes them quickly. There usually isn't much that can be done with a player who is simply over matched when he moves to a new level in his sport. Sherrod looked over matched at times. Projecting how a player who is very good at one level will do when he moves up to the next level is the most uncertain part of scouting in any sport.

While I think the net result from the defense can be attributed in large part to poor play from the front seven, that isn't an excuse for the poor individual performances by a lot of the players. Williams didn't cover or tackle the same as he did in 2010. Shields is a huge question. There was a confusion on defense that was not simply poor play up front. Too many players just performed poorly executing their own responsibilities.

I agree; Sherrod looked absolutely lost.

[pbmax]

Hi pbmax.

"my snip"

Ted Thompson couldn't sign a FA besides Mario Williams with that available CAP space that would upgrade our 'D' in our front seven?

Sign a player or two that would free up Clay Matthews?

I'll request that you look at this question:

Looking at the list of FA's available at this time. Posted on this thread this morning. Is it your opinion that none of these could improve 'the Packers Roster' specifically related to ugrading the defense? I'm asking this in terms of his signing Anthony Hargrove?

If Ted Thompson was set at the start of Free Agency with 12.9 Million dollars under the CAP. Couldn't he have been sincerely interested in any FA that was available at the beginning of Free Agency?

How many Anthony Hargroves could he have signed in theory?

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?23734-2012-Free-Agent-Watch&p=660716&viewfull=1#post660716

Today at DE/DT, Tony Hargrove, Rocky Bernard, Amobi Okoye and Derek Landri are all basically similar players who will sign similar deals. If you can pick the winner here Woodbuck, be my guest but I suspect Thompson and his pro personnel people know them better than we do. Andre Carter and Matt Roth are small DEs who would need to sub for an OLB on passing downs. They aren't an ideal fit for the system. Fletcher and Hawthorne play in the middle at LB and couldn't help opposite Clay at ROLB.

If you dump Finley, you could have signed a big name FA. But outside of Mario Williams, who would have been worth it? I haven't seen you tell us who it should have been and for how much? Williams was $9.8 million in cap room and would not have wanted to play in GB at OLB (like Kampman before him). So who would it have been? Someone better than Hargrove? Quite possible. But if they need to be snagged early in FA, then they will be expensive.

And they will not be the player Jermichael Finley is. Ask yourself this question? Would your theoretical big ticket signing (not Mario Williams) have helped to prevent more points than you would lose with Finley not playing offense?

And who is your starting TE woodbuck?

wist has a point that Thompson has missed too often on the D line and its hurting them. But if you are going to say Thompson missed in FA, you need to name the player who was worth more than Finley. Signing a player has a domino effect. In your scenario, that domino is Finley and he is very good. Which means your theoretical player needs to be better than him to make the team better.

[Patler]

Without attributing blame for whether or not they were good picks to start out with, a bit of luck in the health department for Harrell and Neal might have made the outlook completely different. Throw in Jolly overcoming his demons and it is a lot different.

While TT may not have addressed the D early enough last year, overall he has not ignored it, He just has not been as successful with his picks. Bad luck, or are the Packers just not as adept scouting defensive players?

[RashanGary]

I agree; Sherrod looked absolutely lost.

Agreed. He was a total project. He came from a college that played non-pro technique. Everything he was learning was all new, and it showed. Guys like him, that come from schools that are notorious for not producing NFL ready lineman and rarely produce NFL lineman at all, they can work out, but it usually takes time. It's no guarantee that he sucks, but it is a guarantee that he sucked from day 1 here, and it's a guarantee that he's a project, at best. Give me Marshall Newhouse. He showed more than Sherrod ever did.

And Newhouse came from a school that plays non-pro technique too. He was a project. The difference between Newhouse and Sherrod is that Newhouse stayed healthy his whole rookie year and got to work on his technique while he waited in the wings. Year two, he came out and played OK. Where he came from, the learning curve, there is more reason to believe he'll be a good LT than there is Sherrod. Unlike Bulaga who came in with steady, consistent technique, Newhouse is still a work in progress. He has a lot of room to grow. He's a project who's shown potential on the NFL level.

There is a reason teams keep drafting lineman from schools who coach NFL style line play. It's because you can see it on tape. They do it the same way they're going to be expected to do it on the next level. Iowa, Wiscconsin, Alabama, etc. . . . Those schools produce players who can play right away, players who don't have so many question marks about if they can do it on the next level. Mississippi State, TCU. . . . They don't. GM's don't pick them high because there is a lot of, "can he do it" type questions.

I give it a chance, TT has taken projects who've panned out. Shields, Tramon, etc. . . .

Even Sitton, he came from a zone scheme, a scheme that was NFL style play. He was less of a project than Sherrod and we took Sherrod with our first pick. Sitton was a 4th rounder. I really did not like the pick at all. The only reason I had moderate warmth to it was that he's a naturally big guy with a ton of "potential." There are a million and 1 guys who are 6 feet tall and 220 pounds. There are very few who are 6'6" and carry 320 yet move like they're 270. Even then, I give a resounding, "Fuck. . . THAT!"

TT is fallible. He fell for the pretty girl with curls, and that's a big "don't do it" rule of his.

[pbmax]

Sherrod was a multi-year starter in the SEC at tackle and was very good. Physically, he fits the position better than Newhouse.

I did not see confusion in the kid. I saw a player who had played 4 years at left tackle get moved to left guard while learning a new offense. Then in virtually his first game action, he was moved to right tackle. After a rough two series, I thought he played pretty well on the right side. Sherrod, if his leg is healthy, is going to be fine.

His college offense required a lot of pass blocking. At left tackle in the Packers offense, the amount of adjustment on most plays is limited. And he has already shown he can run block better than Clifton while he was at guard.

[Patler]

Sherrod was a multi-year starter in the SEC at tackle and was very good. Physically, he fits the position better than Newhouse.

I did not see confusion in the kid. I saw a player who had played 4 years at left tackle get moved to left guard while learning a new offense. Then in virtually his first game action, he was moved to right tackle. After a rough two series, I thought he played pretty well on the right side. Sherrod, if his leg is healthy, is going to be fine.

His college offense required a lot of pass blocking. At left tackle in the Packers offense, the amount of adjustment on most plays is limited. And he has already shown he can run block better than Clifton while he was at guard.

You and I saw Sherrod completely differently. Unlike Bulaga in 2010, who stepped in at guard in preseason and looked physically like he belonged even when he did make mistakes, who then was surprisingly asked to play RT and looked the same; I saw Sherrod as a guy who didn't look like he belonged at guard when he played there, at LT when they moved him there in preseason games, or during the season at RT. Quite simply, I thought he was out of his league, even against less than stellar competition during pre-season.

Most recent Packer O-lineman rookies have been asked to play different positions. Even when he was moved back to his familiar LT in pre-season, I thought Sherrod struggled a lot against mediocre 3rd and 4th stringers. Bulaga, Lang, Sitton, Spitz all looked a lot better right off the bat than Sherrod did.

I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong.

[Fritz]

IF Sherrod heals, I think he'll be fine. The FA signings will help at the bottom end of the roster, but as seems to be the case with Ted's teams, and maybe with the NFL these days, the Packers are going to have to count on probably two or three rookies to step up big this year. And that's on defense.

So I hope that this whole BPA thing miraculously coincides with areas of need in the first three rounds...say, a DE, a ROLB, and a corner or a safety.