PACKERS' ... Secret Superstar: Brad Jones

[Brandon494]

Can't they just line up a trash can and save Kuhn's salary? Would they really be missing out on much if they did? Granted the FB dive would gain 0 yards instead of .5 but that seems like a good trade off.

I guarantee with you, I would much rather have a blocking FB instead of Kuhn. Now that we have Lacy its really no reason for Kuhn to be running the ball IMO. I doubt he'll make the team but I like what I hear about this Johnathan Amosa kid we signed as a undrafted free agent.

Positive: Explosive lead blocker with average size/speed numbers for the next level. Quick out of his stance into blocks, attacks assignments and squares into defenders. Plays with terrific knee bend getting leverage on opponents, displays outstanding vision, and strong enough to turn opponents from the play. Adequate pass catcher out of the backfield.

Negative: Rarely used as part of the offensive. Has a combined three receptions during his college career and never carried the ball.

Analysis: Amosa is a high-effort prospect who gets the most from his ability and plays intense football. He possesses the playing style and substance to get consideration as a West Coast fullback.

[pbmax]

No one handles everything from one personnel group on defense. The Seahawks and 49ers run as much sub group as anyone else in the League.

And the front seven is not as determinative as Kirwan would like for the Seahawks. The best unit on the Seahawks is the D backfield. Followed by the D line, last would be the linebackers. His description might hold true for the 49ers or Rams.

But the most glaring error in the article of is learning that no-huddle is an option on second down. You can't no-huddle second down because of favorable matchups without having had the same matchup previously on first down. In either case, the defense gets to choose its matchup.

Kirwan is trying to draw a point about having a versatile, do everything front seven when looking 2 of the best defenses in the League. Well, no kidding. But what he doesn't provide is any proof that these defenses use sub packages less on 1st or 2nd down than the rest of the League. If he did, then we would be onto something.

[wist43]

Yeah but other teams do. You want to talk about how Capers is bad at it then lets do that. I'd rather not have a discussion where we are talking about how the 2-4 is shit, Capers version of it is shit, Capers is shit, the players are shit, and the shitty players don't fit in the shitty scheme. That's too many claims at once to be serious or credible. Unpacking those claims one at a time I think its safe to at least say there is nothing inherently wrong with the 2-4. It works for other teams. Let's at least narrow down our woes to either Capers's specific use of the 2-4, Capers inability to adjust during a game, shitty players, or shitty fits in the scheme.

Personally I can't pin blame on the Capers scheme, it seems fine. I think Capers sucks on game day and the players are shitty but not bad fits. Shitty and injured are effectively the same thing.

Well, we certainly see it a lot different - and when have I said the players are shit?? The Linebackers are shit after Matthews, and I have hope for Perry - but I want more dynamic playmakers on the 2nd level, that's for sure. If you're happy with Hawk and Bishop, then we're talking different languages.

Capers version of the 2-4 is certainly shit though - the results speak to that. We give up huge chunks of yardage, and have major breakdowns far too often - that's Capers.

As I've said many times - I like a lot of the players, but almost to a man they are a strained fit for a 3-4. I watched some of the Balt/NE playoff game in which Balt ran a lot of what could be termed a 2-4. They had Kruger standing up at 285, and their presnap rovers into and out of the gaps were Upshaw at 272 and Suggs at 260. Much bigger than what Capers throws out there.

[3irty1]

Well, we certainly see it a lot different - and when have I said the players are shit?? The Linebackers are shit after Matthews, and I have hope for Perry - but I want more dynamic playmakers on the 2nd level, that's for sure. If you're happy with Hawk and Bishop, then we're talking different languages.

Capers version of the 2-4 is certainly shit though - the results speak to that. We give up huge chunks of yardage, and have major breakdowns far too often - that's Capers.

As I've said many times - I like a lot of the players, but almost to a man they are a strained fit for a 3-4. I watched some of the Balt/NE playoff game in which Balt ran a lot of what could be termed a 2-4. They had Kruger standing up at 285, and their presnap rovers into and out of the gaps were Upshaw at 272 and Suggs at 260. Much bigger than what Capers throws out there.

We're in agreement on the linebackers. I pretty much blame that unit for about everything that's gone wrong. Walden was the worst player on the defense. Hawk is the worst kind of bad because he's just good enough to escape being replaced every year. I like Bishop a lot more than you do but that matters little since he didn't play at all last year. I like Jones too but bottom line if you play MLB you've got to be capable of making splashy plays and he hasn't done that yet. It wasn't a good group. Much worse than the DL I thought. On paper though it looks like they've improved through the subtraction of Walden and the additions of Bishop and Perry. Still lots of room for improvement, still tons of room for depth at OLB.

The bad results on defense could be blamed on a number of factors, other than the 2-4. I think the scheme is capable of working, at one point I even thought it was genius. The scheme was one that highlighted Charles Woodson though and as he aged, it got shittier with him. I expect some noticeable differences in scheme now that he's gone because I do think Capers is a competent architect of a defense, even if he did grow complacent after the superbowl win. If not then I wouldn't be surprised to see your prediction of Capers being fired come true. The other big enabler for his 2-4 heavy scheme was having his 2 best defensive lineman be both 330+ lbs. With expanded roles to Neal, Daniels, and the addition of Jones there could be other talent to highlight besides our excellent big fatties.

You touched on the real reason I dislike Capers and that's his major breakdowns, I differentiate between this and his scheme though. I'd be fine with keeping his scheme and getting Winston Moss or someone else to run it for him on gameday. His schemes don't always break but when they do they hemorrhage yards for the rest of the day and often a few weeks in a row. No scheme is perfect and offenses are always going to find a way to exploit something but Capers just doesn't seem capable of consistently winning the punch, counter-punch war on gameday.

Kruger is more like 270, the Ravens and other teams are similar sized to what the Packers have at OLB. Again why I don't mind the fit. I see guys on the Packers DL who I think would ideally be in other schemes but none that I think would be way better in other schemes or anything. All of them were good value and its a pretty good group when healthy that could play in just about any scheme. The fit thing is going to mostly come down to your belief on Raji as a NT on which our disagreement is already well documented. We both agree though that he has been seeing too many snaps and even if he is miscast he'd be a much better miscast on fresh legs.

That's why I think what I think and I think it explains all the symptoms we see on our defense.

[pbmax]

I don't think those breakdowns for big plays are strategic or tactical. I think they are player related.

I really don't think this positional coaching staff has them ready for game situations. They are still straightening out zone coverages in Year 4.

In the backend I think its the split duties between S (Perry) and CB (Whitt). At LB, I think its mainly player related. Some bad fits there. In the Line, I think its Raji and Trgo getting Raji to play to the scheme.

Is that the DC? Maybe, but he didn't choose each of the coaches. Moss and Whitt were McCarthy.

I tend to side with Perry and Trgo as each was highly regarded coming in and Trgo was John Fox's DC. But I would not be upset if some of them left.

They play that defense too loose for comfort. McCarthy mentioned it at the combine I think. They spent the 2nd half against the 49ers on their heels. They never hunkered down, played it straight and held on while the coaches dialed up an answer.

[3irty1]

If the guys don't have it by now then perhaps there is too much to get. I'd rather them run a simple scheme quickly than a scheme riddled with bullshit only after years of practice.

[rbaloha1]

If the guys don't have it by now then perhaps there is too much to get. I'd rather them run a simple scheme quickly than a scheme riddled with bullshit only after years of practice.

Way too much "overanalysis": bang:: DOH:

The psycho package is designed to create confusion about who should be blocked. IMO its effective in third and long situations. Recall it being effective when it was first used but that was with Bishop. IMMO effective with the correct package.

The 3-4 allows for more flexibility/gimmicks due to the linebackers/tweener sized players.

Recall early-on when the Packers were more vanilla and how qbs like Roethlesberger and Warner dominated the packer defense. Qbs used to point to where the blitzes were coming from. Then audible a pass play to the vacated area.

The problem with the current scheme is the assignments when the blitzes fail. It is the continual breakdowns that are a big issue not what coach is from what coaching tree.

All this "analysis"*is like over siliconed wahines.

[woodbuck27]

DE Mike Neal talks move to linebacker

Green Bay Packers defensive end Mike Neal discussed the team's OTAs (organized team activities) following Tuesday afternoon's practice.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/DE_Mike_Neal_talks_move_to_linebacker/d3ae29e2-fc83-4f79-8450-845bc4182038

GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

http://www.espnmilwaukee.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=7911&is_corp=1

(Desmond) Bishop plots next move

By JASON WILDE

jwilde@espnwisconsin.com

GREEN BAY –

" Desmond Bishop doesn’t believe that he was ever on the trading block, and he doesn’t buy that he’s lost his starting job, either.

Regardless of the three-year, $11.75 million contract the Green Bay Packers gave his replacement, Brad Jones, the veteran inside linebacker is certain that once he’s cleared for action, he’ll reclaim what’s rightfully his – even though he’s seen firsthand that a starter can lose his spot due to injury and never get it back.

“I mean, yeah, somebody’s got to fill in right now. It’s not like my job to say who plays and who doesn’t,” Bishop said after watching Tuesday’s organized team activity practice – the second open workout of the offseason – from the sideline of the Don Hutson Center. “All I can do is get healthy to (get back to) my full potential and get back out there.

“Of course, every person should feel like they should play. If you didn’t have that mindset, you wouldn’t be here. It is what it is.”..." Fr. LINK

Please click on LINK for much more on this story.

GO PACKERS !

[wist43]

The bad results on defense could be blamed on a number of factors, other than the 2-4. I think the scheme is capable of working, at one point I even thought it was genius. The scheme was one that highlighted Charles Woodson though and as he aged, it got shittier with him. I expect some noticeable differences in scheme now that he's gone because I do think Capers is a competent architect of a defense, even if he did grow complacent after the superbowl win. If not then I wouldn't be surprised to see your prediction of Capers being fired come true. The other big enabler for his 2-4 heavy scheme was having his 2 best defensive lineman be both 330+ lbs. With expanded roles to Neal, Daniels, and the addition of Jones there could be other talent to highlight besides our excellent big fatties.

I agree there are a lot of problems besides the 2-4, but I think Capers disproportionately plays too much of it, and for that reason I give it increased scrutiny. If it were an occasional sub-package curveball that we saw 3-4 times a game, then I wouldn't single it out... plenty of fish to fry.

In comparing our personnel to Baltimores from last year - assume their 2 fat guys and our 2 fat guys are a wash - they're better than our guys, but we'll call it wash of fat guys.

After that, in a 2-4, Baltimore would throw out there Suggs (260), Upshaw (270), Kruger (270), and Ellerbe (240) for an average of 260.5 lbs for the "4" in their 2-4.

Our 2-4 averaged 248.5 (Matthews, Hawk, Jones, and Walden). We'll get a little bigger with Perry replacing Walden, but Capers going to a 2-4 means going small, which means going soft.

You touched on the real reason I dislike Capers and that's his major breakdowns, I differentiate between this and his scheme though. I'd be fine with keeping his scheme and getting Winston Moss or someone else to run it for him on gameday. His schemes don't always break but when they do they hemorrhage yards for the rest of the day and often a few weeks in a row. No scheme is perfect and offenses are always going to find a way to exploit something but Capers just doesn't seem capable of consistently winning the punch, counter-punch war on gameday.

The breakdowns have to be on Capers. 1 time?? Yeah, you can put it on a player; but over and over again - the principles of Sun Tzu apply - it is the leaders responsibility.

And when it comes to the chess game?? Capers is better suited to checkers.

Kruger is more like 270, the Ravens and other teams are similar sized to what the Packers have at OLB. Again why I don't mind the fit. I see guys on the Packers DL who I think would ideally be in other schemes but none that I think would be way better in other schemes or anything. All of them were good value and its a pretty good group when healthy that could play in just about any scheme. The fit thing is going to mostly come down to your belief on Raji as a NT on which our disagreement is already well documented. We both agree though that he has been seeing too many snaps and even if he is miscast he'd be a much better miscast on fresh legs.

Raji on the nose for me is a huge problem - that's where all of Capers problems start. He then overplays Raji and wears him down. As I've said, if Capers's plan for the season is to negate Raji's impact?? Mission accomplished.

I see all of the other guys being similarly miscast... most of them seem to be average 4-3 tackles. Is Capers going to play Perry, Neal, and Matthews standing up in a 2-4?? That would give us much more of a look similar to Baltimore.

I don't think Neal can play like that, nor Daniels... nor any of the other DL for that matter. We simply don't have front seven personnel that are flexibile enough to create havoc for an offense out of alignments that don't fit their strengths.

That's on Capers as well.

I see almost all of our problems on defense as coming down to 1 guy - Dom Capers.

[RashanGary]

Wist,

Jones adds another player to the DL rotation. That should help with overall quality of play and keeping guys fresh. Perry adds some size. The secondary is another valuable year of experience more ready. We added Lacy. We very likely improved the left side of our OL, and we have a lot of guys on the right side duking it out (numbers alone, one or two should rise to the occasion.) Crosby should kick better. Jennings and Woodson were already out last year, so we haven't lost anyone from last years team.

I know this particular point weighs heavily on your mind, but we were a pretty good team last year. The signs point up, and there isn't very far up we can possibly go.

I'll concede, that possibly you are right. It is possible Capers is incompetent. It is possible he does not know how to coach NFL defense at a high level. You've watched a lot of football, have a lot of good insight (especially when you watch the tape, then talk about it after games.) You definitely have earned respect, enough to be paid attention too. And your opinion on how they use Raji, I too find it absolutely baffling. I think we both know Raji plays well when he gets to penetrate. As good as he is (even still) when he's asked to do it, as much of a non-factor as he is when he's 2-gapping or just holding the point first. His real special talent is his burst and power off the ball, that's neutralized when he shoots up and stays square first. It shocks me to see a coach just stop using a guy in a way that worked and keep using him in a way that doesn't. I scratch my head, hoping Raji is serving some purpose to the greater good, but I can't help but think consistent pressure and sacks are better than what he's doing.

That said, you can admit a couple things too. We are a legit divisional round playoff team. We do appear on the rise at the moment, right? You have to think we're a SB contender if a thing or two you don't expect happens, right? You didn't expect the 2010 defense to do what it did. It's not out of the realm of recent history for Capers to put together that type of defense. You put us in the top 8 teams and have to admit it's possible we could win the SB, right?

[wist43]

Wist,

Jones adds another player to the DL rotation. That should help with overall quality of play and keeping guys fresh. Perry adds some size. The secondary is another valuable year of experience more ready. We added Lacy. We very likely improved the left side of our OL, and we have a lot of guys on the right side duking it out (numbers alone, one or two should rise to the occasion.) Crosby should kick better. Jennings and Woodson were already out last year, so we haven't lost anyone from last years team.

I know this particular point weighs heavily on your mind, but we were a pretty good team last year. The signs point up, and there isn't very far up we can possibly go.

I'll concede, that possibly you are right. It is possible Capers is incompetent. It is possible he does not know how to coach NFL defense at a high level. You've watched a lot of football, have a lot of good insight (especially when you watch the tape, then talk about it after games.) You definitely have earned respect, enough to be paid attention too. And your opinion on how they use Raji, I too find it absolutely baffling. I think we both know Raji plays well when he gets to penetrate. As good as he is (even still) when he's asked to do it, as much of a non-factor as he is when he's 2-gapping or just holding the point first. His real special talent is his burst and power off the ball, that's neutralized when he shoots up and stays square first. It shocks me to see a coach just stop using a guy in a way that worked and keep using him in a way that doesn't. I scratch my head, hoping Raji is serving some purpose to the greater good, but I can't help but think consistent pressure and sacks are better than what he's doing.

That said, you can admit too, we do have a good team and it does appear on the rise at the moment, right? You have to think we're a SB contender. It's possible our defense fails and also possible things fall together really well like in 2010, right?

...aaannnhhhh, yeah, we have a "good team" - sort of.

I'd say we have a kick-ass QB, a very good passing game coach, and enough blue-chip receivers that those high-level components bring the rest of the team up to "good".

Our shortcomings, both in terms of personnel and philosophically, are tough problems to overcome. We're weak in the 1 area you can't be weak in IMO - the trenches. And a lot of those problems are self-inflicted as we've been discussing.

We have a punchers chance just like we did in 2010, just like NE has a punchers chance every year with Brady... are we on an upswing?? We improved with Jones, and we improved our RB's - I grant you that, but what will McCarthy and Capers do with their gameplanning and play calling??

If Capers and MM learn some lessons from last year?? Yeah, we can see improvement... but I don't see them changing. What needs to be changed are things that are foundational to what each of those guys wants to do.

McCarthy wants to call 3 running plays; and Capers wants to sacrifice size and toughness for speed and coverage - Leopard's spots and all that. We'll see.

[RashanGary]

Here are the 4 main coverage schemes (and I'm going to assume all nickle. If we go base, teams will just shift guys around and destroy linebackers covering athletic backs on the outside.) Every team plays nickle against 3-WR sets.


Single shell, man coverage on the corners, 8-man box

This is the defense we dominated with in 2010. Collins, Shields and Williams all have 4.3 speed. We could stop the pass with extremely risky coverage. This allowed us to keep 8 guys in the box and still stop the run. The last time Capers even thought about doing this was about 5 or 6 games into the 2011 season. We were getting the top blown off our defense. It was sick.


Single shell, zone coverage on the corners, 8-man box

This is a rare defense. It's usually a coverage used on blitzes, but you can play it if the corners play soft enough. We do from time to time, and get shredded underneith. I don't really consider this an option with a 4-man pass rush. Way too big of zones for the corners to cover unless there is quick pressure. 3rd and 15, it's great, get some quick pressure, don't let the WR get behind you, tackle, get off the field. 3rd and 7 = disaster.


2-shell, man defense, 7-man box

This is Capers new go-to defense. It is by far the softest run defense you can possibly run, especially if you have 2 DL like we do. The corners turn and run with the WR, leaving huge holes on the outside. We only have 2 DL. Matthews and the other OLB have to cover like 1/3 of the field all by themselves. It requires perfection from the OLB position. It's an awful lot to ask. Like Wist says, it's amazing how obvious we're getting beat, exactly where and exactly why. The problem is, we can't play the other types of coverage well enough to go away from it.


2-shell, zone defense, 7-man box

Cover 2. It's a better run defense than the cover-2 man we play. The CB's play the ball and the ball carrier. It would take pressure off our OLBs from having to play perfect (sorry, but perfect is not a realistic expectation against the best in the NFL.) If Shields was even below average in zone defense, we could probably do this, but he's not. Williams is just average himself. Shields looked good down the stretch for one reason. Capers abandoned zone defense. Capers abandoned zone defense for one reason, Sam Shields. We can't play cover-2 zone defense because Sam Shields is one of our CB's.




So, for one reason or another, we're not great at any one defense. We're clearly a man team. Hayward is the only zone corner on our team and he's always going to play the slot. When it comes to man defense, we don't have the elite FS to stay in single high safety looks so we're forced to play 2-shell, man defense (the softest of soft run defenses.) This is made even softer with 2 DL on the field.

I hope Perry and Jones strengthen up our 6-man front enough to make small gains over last year. I still think this has to be our go-to coverage. We just don't have the zone corners or the elite safety to play anything else without getting destroyed. I hope Shields improves some as a zone corner so we can mix zone in a little more and get some run stops while simultaneously giving the QB something else to think about. I hope Burnett gets a little better covering the deep middle alone so we can take some risks up front with an extra guy in the box. Burnett will never cover the ground Collins did, but if he can get a little better, maybe Capers can use it just enough to get some stops but not often enough for QB's to we waiting for it.

Our 2013 defense, I see it being similar in scheme to the one we played in the playoffs last year, but a little stronger up front and a little more well rounded in our coverages. I don't imagine Capers will change much from last year. I do hope he changes a little and the talent gets a little better.

Going from top 10 to top 5, along with some improvement out of Crosby and improvement from the running game, I think, would be enough to win the SB. You drinkin the kool-aid, Wist?

[RashanGary]

I'm kind of with you Wist, thinking a 3-3 could be a nice front for us too. If we're going to have to play that 2-shell man defense, it would be nice to have another big body.

Matthews/Bishop/Jones (If we played this, I wouldn't want Perry out there because he'd be asked to play in space far more than he is in the 2-4)
D. Jones / Pickett / Raji

You could 2-gap with Pickett and Raji. Jones and Matthews would pair up on the blind side as a stunting/pass rushing duo. It would take a little away from the pass rush/coverage aspect (having Pickett instead of Perry) but against some teams (Vikings, for example) I think you're a little more concerned with the RB than you are the QB. I do think AP is a good enough player to adjust your game plan a little for.

[3irty1]

I agree there are a lot of problems besides the 2-4, but I think Capers disproportionately plays too much of it, and for that reason I give it increased scrutiny. If it were an occasional sub-package curveball that we saw 3-4 times a game, then I wouldn't single it out... plenty of fish to fry.

In comparing our personnel to Baltimores from last year - assume their 2 fat guys and our 2 fat guys are a wash - they're better than our guys, but we'll call it wash of fat guys.

After that, in a 2-4, Baltimore would throw out there Suggs (260), Upshaw (270), Kruger (270), and Ellerbe (240) for an average of 260.5 lbs for the "4" in their 2-4.

Our 2-4 averaged 248.5 (Matthews, Hawk, Jones, and Walden). We'll get a little bigger with Perry replacing Walden, but Capers going to a 2-4 means going small, which means going soft.



The breakdowns have to be on Capers. 1 time?? Yeah, you can put it on a player; but over and over again - the principles of Sun Tzu apply - it is the leaders responsibility.

And when it comes to the chess game?? Capers is better suited to checkers.



Raji on the nose for me is a huge problem - that's where all of Capers problems start. He then overplays Raji and wears him down. As I've said, if Capers's plan for the season is to negate Raji's impact?? Mission accomplished.

I see all of the other guys being similarly miscast... most of them seem to be average 4-3 tackles. Is Capers going to play Perry, Neal, and Matthews standing up in a 2-4?? That would give us much more of a look similar to Baltimore.

I don't think Neal can play like that, nor Daniels... nor any of the other DL for that matter. We simply don't have front seven personnel that are flexibile enough to create havoc for an offense out of alignments that don't fit their strengths.

That's on Capers as well.

I see almost all of our problems on defense as coming down to 1 guy - Dom Capers.

Upshaw is an OLB for them, the guy you're missing is Ray Lewis (240). For an average of 252.5. Replacing 250lb Walden with 265lb Perry should pretty much make the difference in size negligible. Don't think it'll be necessary to actually play Neal at OLB. Seems like that's just a wrinkle or learning exercise. The difference between our linebacking corps has much more to do with the fact that they had 2 guys who could rush the passer and we had 1. Interesting that we're talking about the Ravens because we were actually the better defense last year during the regular season in pretty much every statistical category including points, rushing yards, and passing yards. Suggs and Lewis both missed half the season but made it back for the playoffs. Shows what a difference health can make!

For most teams the NT is a situational player who really just plays in the base D which is typically slightly less than half of snaps. Pickett could be that type of NT. Raji has the size to be adequate on the nose and the movement skills to be adequate as an interior pass rusher so I don't mind them using him all over although I do agree that he plays far too many snaps. He should be playing 75% of the snaps he's been playing tops.

Again where we disagree is that I don't think Capers is just a complete moron who is hell bent on forcing players into a scheme they're no good at, I think he's just highlighting the wrong players: Woodson. Losing Woodson as the crown jewel of his defense forces Capers to change his spots IMO. Casey Hayward is a fantastic player but he's no OLB like Woodson could be which means your 2-4 nickel that kind of looks like a 4-3 when you want it to is dead. We now have the personnel to play a 3-4 that is as flexible as the 2-4 has been for us. If we wanted we could have a 3-4 sack machine front that looked like: Perry - Neal - Daniels - Jones - Matthews.