PACKERS' ... Secret Superstar: Brad Jones

[RashanGary]

Clay "jack" - Weakside OLB, usually on the offenses left side, quick, fast, playmaker behind the line of scrimmage
Hawk "Will" - Weakside ILB, usually on the offenses left side, plays in space
Bishop/Jones "Mike" - Strongside ILB, usually on the offenses right side, plays in space, takes on more blockers than the weakside backer
Perry "SOLB" - Strongside OLB, usually on the offenses right side, takes OT's and TE's. Usually the biggest, strongest of the linebacker unit

Everything I read, this is how defenses are usually titled and constructed. The bigger guys on the right side of the offense, smaller on the left. Teams like to run to the right, and stack the TE or FB to that side, no?

Am I completely missing something? Is Hawk really on the right side of the offense and I have horrible memory? Do offenses play us with their strongside to the left most of the time with us and I have horrible memory? Are the internet scheme explainations just wrong and the Mike (strongside ILB) actually takes on less blocks than the weakside backer? I don't know, it seems like that whole Hawk takes on blockers things was constructed a long time ago by people who were excusing his lack of playmaking and it never went away.

I just don't see Hawk having big guys on him more than anyone else. He's just bad at beating blocks and really slow to react.

[woodbuck27]

Clay "jack" - Weakside OLB, usually on the offenses left side, quick, fast, playmaker behind the line of scrimmage
Hawk "Will" - Weakside ILB, usually on the offenses left side, plays in space
Bishop/Jones "Mike" - Strongside ILB, usually on the offenses right side, plays in space, takes on more blockers than the weakside backer
Perry "SOLB" - Strongside OLB, usually on the offenses right side, takes OT's and TE's. Usually the biggest, strongest of the linebacker unit

Everything I read, this is how defenses are usually titled and constructed. The bigger guys on the right side of the offense, smaller on the left. Teams like to run to the right, and stack the TE or FB to that side, no?

Am I completely missing something? Is Hawk really on the right side of the offense and I have horrible memory? Do offenses play us with their strongside to the left most of the time with us and I have horrible memory? Are the internet scheme explainations just wrong and the Mike (strongside ILB) actually takes on less blocks than the weakside backer? I don't know, it seems like that whole Hawk takes on blockers things was constructed a long time ago by people who were excusing his lack of playmaking and it never went away.

I just don't see Hawk having big guys on him more than anyone else. He's just bad at beating blocks and really slow to react.

JH:

Your take here is as I see it also.

pbmax will come back with something on this. That's why after reading this article and assessing it Vs the general comments on specific Packer Linebackers i.e. Matthews, HAWK, Bishop/Jones and Perry I was intrigued with what the author had to say.

There is almost a general distain for anything Bleacher Report here at Packerrats. In my opinion that site publishes good and bad. They publish so much that it's not all bad. Some of it will stick to the wall.

The author for this article wrote it for what site? Is this site reputable or not? Acceptable or not at Packerrats? Those questions:

The way I look at it that's all moot. This is a very slow time of the season and to keep things even moderately alive on Packerrats I tried to generate something for us to discuss. It's so slow that over the past two weeks the Brett Favre thread dominated.

Ted Thompson had specific reasons for bringing Brad Jones back. The rumor and Desmond Bishop and trading block during April's Draft is 'a smoke and fire' thing. Desmond Bishop makes just under $5 million$ and he's what? 28 years old. After HAWK at 29 years, Desmond Bishop is the oldest of the LB crew. Then it's Brad Jones and Rob Francois at 27 years.

Desmond Bishop and his rush style of play. If the front three cannot somehow open up a lane for him to get into the backfield where's he going? There we are with this 3-4 defense that as Wist43 is trying and trying to explain to y'all this isn't any longer cutting the mustard and your just not getting it. In fact the way Capers plays it and all the stunting. what kind of defense do the Green bay Packers have?

I'll tell you what kinda defense I've been seeing. A defense that inspite of any Aaron Rodgers heroics isn't going to get to any Super Bowl and win as that defense has been. Is there hope? Yes there's hope as we see our DB's maturing and progressing as they need to just from an experience standpoint.

The sands are shifting at LB. We're seeing the end of HAWK time and Bishop is aging. Rob Francois is now 28 years old. We hopefully will see Nick Perry justify his first round selection. I'm hoping that younger players at the position like Terrell Manning and Dezman Moses show more growth and work out as capable backups and in rotation/packages. Then we have the Rookie crop at LB. Who just might emerge from the new guys.

It's all very exciting.

GO PACKERS !

[Bretsky]

Jones would seem to be the most debated guy in PR on the team as far as what he is.
I think he's junk.....a JAG.........he's JAJ....aka.........Just a Jones to me

[pbmax]

Packers, according to info from the launch of the Capers era run strong side and weak side ILBs. Hawk has been SS the entire time (Buck) and Bishop has only ever worked as weak side (Mack), even when he backed up Barnett. My info is not new, but I believe this has been consistent give coverage about Bishop's role. Hawk is the thumper and gets to take on the Guard or Center who shakes free. One of the OLBs is like a 4-3 Sam and the other is the backside DE if you want to put it in 4-3 terms.

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?17007-Defensive-Front-Seven&p=414124&viewfull=1#post414124

From today's Green Bay Press Gazette's Nick Barnett article, we finally have the official word on the names for the two inside backers.

Originally Posted by Green Bay Press Gazette - By Rob Demovsky, June 6, 2009
He’s moving to one of the inside linebackers in Capers’ 3-4 system. Capers calls the inside positions the “mack,” or the weak-side spot, and the “buck,” or the strong-side spot, in the base defense. Barnett will play the “mack” in the base defense.
I think we had noted these positions would be Mike and Jack, but here is some indication of what the team is using. This earth shattering news is brought to you by: The Department of Sound and Fury Signifying Nothing.

Internal link to GBPG article by Demovsky is broken and I can find it in a search.

[pbmax]

Here is a working link from the same time frame: http://www.packersnews.com/article/2...rs-depth-chart

[hoosier]

Here is a working link from the same time frame: http://www.packersnews.com/article/2...rs-depth-chart

That link (from 09/09/09) had Bishop backing up at Buck, not Mack, so presumably Bishop had at least preseason experience playing strongside. In fact, they weren't even considering him as the second option to spell Barnett when Nick was recovering from offseason surgery (Chillar was ahead of Bishop) until Barnett actually went down. Maybe the light hadn't gone on for Bishop yet, but sometimes I have to wonder about this coaching staff and its ability to evaluate its own talent.

[pbmax]

That link (from 09/09/09) had Bishop backing up at Buck, not Mack, so presumably Bishop had at least preseason experience playing strongside. In fact, they weren't even considering him as the second option to spell Barnett when Nick was recovering from offseason surgery (Chillar was ahead of Bishop) until Barnett actually went down. Maybe the light hadn't gone on for Bishop yet, but sometimes I have to wonder about this coaching staff and its ability to evaluate its own talent.

Yeah it does. Every other piece of coverage I recall though had Bishop at Mack. Its possible that Chillar was the reason for this and it ended the moment he went down with an injury in 2009. Its also possible Bishop was simply placed in the list there when he actually practiced at Mack.

I was rooting for Bishop (as he seems vastly more physical on screen than wither Hawk or Bishop) to take the Buck gig from Hawk when he came in and let AJ pursue and get away from blockers. But in camp in 2010, he was the backup solely at Mack and not Buck. Lansanah was the only backup at Buck who got decent reps and he wasn't long for the roster.

Having watched him, his game is more speed and reaction plus solid hitting than it is neutralizing blockers. Nothing wrong with that, but its another example where Packer D skills are slightly mismatched.

[RashanGary]

I don't know about how things are titled, but I went back and watched some tape to make sure. I know what happens in the games. AJ Hawk lines up on the offenses weak side. Bishop and Jones have lined up on the strong side.

Now, we don't play a lot of 3-4 defense. We're more of a 2-4 defense. We have an extra DB on the strong side of the offense. Regardless of how it all works, I don't see in an X's and O's way, nor have I witnessed, AJ Hawk being some block eater while Biship or Jones run around making tackles. Hawk has always gotten as many tackles as the other guys. The job description, in our defense, is not all that different.

The problem with AJ Hawk is not his number of tackles or him not being in position to make them. It's where he makes them and the fact that they rarely to never have any impact. The other problem is his coverage.

He's alright, but I like Jones a little better because of his coverage and Bishop a good notch better because of his high impact plays.

[wist43]

You guys are insane if you think Jones is even a starter, let alone a borderline elite player.

And Bishop is an 8 out of 10?? WTF have you guys been smoking??

We have 1 LB on our team (Matthews); Perry has a chance to be a good player - we'll see. Everyone else needs to be replaced, or they are in the middle of giving an audition. The Packers, outside of Matthews, have one of the worst collection of LB'ers in the league - seriously, are you guys sniffing Packers glue, or what??

Someone posted that we had a "Top 5" stable of Cornerbacks... so we have one of the best sets of DB's, and we have superstar LB'ers all up and down the roster??

Do any of you even realize we have one of the worst defenses in the league?? Seriously, you guys are delusional when it comes to your favorite team.

[Joemailman]

You guys are insane if you think Jones is even a starter, let alone a borderline elite player.

And Bishop is an 8 out of 10?? WTF have you guys been smoking??

We have 1 LB on our team (Matthews); Perry has a chance to be a good player - we'll see. Everyone else needs to be replaced, or they are in the middle of giving an audition. The Packers, outside of Matthews, have one of the worst collection of LB'ers in the league - seriously, are you guys sniffing Packers glue, or what??

Someone posted that we had a "Top 5" stable of Cornerbacks... so we have one of the best sets of DB's, and we have superstar LB'ers all up and down the roster??

Do any of you even realize we have one of the worst defenses in the league?? Seriously, you guys are delusional when it comes to your favorite team.

More bullshit from the Great Pessimistic One. Packers defense was 11th in PPG last year. 11th in YPG last year. In my book, 11th out of 32 isn't one of the worst. If Capers is as bad as you think he is, then to get those results, the Packers defensive personnel has to be better than you say it is.

[packer4life]

Someone posted that we had a "Top 5" stable of Cornerbacks... so we have one of the best sets of DB's, and we have superstar LB'ers all up and down the roster??

That "someone" was me, and if you read my thread starter it was based solely on the prediction that Tramon approaches Tramon performance of 2010, when he was a shutdown #1. If he is back to his old self, a big if, then yes I EASILY think we are top 5 at cornerback. Behind Tramon is a sea of promise: Shields is only getting better AND can tackle, Hayward is clearly a baller, and hell even House if uninjured should flash and definintely be more of a presence as depth.

Now if Tramon is the same old letdown of a player he was last year, then we most definintely are not top 5. If he sucks again, then I still put us in the top 15. Cornerback is the least of our worries on Defense. I am still quite nervous about the defensive line as a whole and I feel it is obvious that outside of Matthews we have a bunch of question marks at LB...I pray Desmond packs a punch and renders my rambling thoughts moot

[George Cumby]

More bullshit from the Great Pessimistic One. Packers defense was 11th in PPG last year. 11th in YPG last year. In my book, 11th out of 32 isn't one of the worst. If Capers is as bad as you think he is, then to get those results, the Packers defensive personnel has to be better than you say it is.

Excruciating, isn't it?

[wist43]

More bullshit from the Great Pessimistic One. Packers defense was 11th in PPG last year. 11th in YPG last year. In my book, 11th out of 32 isn't one of the worst. If Capers is as bad as you think he is, then to get those results, the Packers defensive personnel has to be better than you say it is.

What is that rbaloha always retorts with?? 579??

How's that for a stat?? Or how about the 444 yds, and 199 yds rushing the Peterson put on us in week 17, or the 210 yds we gave up in week 12??

If you think we have the 11th best defense in the league, then you've been inhaling CO2 straight from the tailpipe.

I think we'll be slightly better on defense this year... getting Perry back, and drafting Jones; but there's no overcoming Dom Capers. Can't win against the big boys with a 2-4 as your base. He'll be fired after this year though... so we tread water another year, and hopefully we get a good DC in here next year.

[wist43]

That "someone" was me, and if you read my thread starter it was based solely on the prediction that Tramon approaches Tramon performance of 2010, when he was a shutdown #1. If he is back to his old self, a big if, then yes I EASILY think we are top 5 at cornerback. Behind Tramon is a sea of promise: Shields is only getting better AND can tackle, Hayward is clearly a baller, and hell even House if uninjured should flash and definintely be more of a presence as depth.

There's always "a sea of promise" with the Packers - we're one of the youngest teams in the league every year, and we always will be as long as TT is our GM.

As I said, I like all those players to whatever extent - but they're young, Capers is a dysfunctional DC, and consequently we will have problems in the back end as long as Capers is there.

Now if Tramon is the same old letdown of a player he was last year, then we most definintely are not top 5. If he sucks again, then I still put us in the top 15. Cornerback is the least of our worries on Defense. I am still quite nervous about the defensive line as a whole and I feel it is obvious that outside of Matthews we have a bunch of question marks at LB...I pray Desmond packs a punch and renders my rambling thoughts moot

Tramon put it all together, and played lights out for that brief stretch of games - just like every other Packer did.

Every single player on that team from 3 years ago played way over their heads - it was one of those flukes. Rodgers stayed at that level for most of 2011, but then came the KC game, and everything tightened up after that.

I would love to see Williams return to that level, but when a players career is 93% mediocre, and 7% HOF, you have to figure you're going to get a whole lot more mediocre play out of that player.

Taken as a whole, our secondary is young and shaky - losing Woodson will hurt more than people think; we have no ILB's - Jones and Hawk should simply be cut straight away; and we might as well have no defensive linemen, as Capers would rather keep them on the bench anyway.

Add it all up, and you have the mess that has been our defense for the last 2 years. 2011 was disgusting... you would think Capers couldn't draw up dumber game plans, but then again, Dom is Dom.

If the score of that opening game is 56-0, maybe they'll fire Dom after week 1??

[Joemailman]

What is that rbaloha always retorts with?? 579??

How's that for a stat?? Or how about the 444 yds, and 199 yds rushing the Peterson put on us in week 17, or the 210 yds we gave up in week 12??

If you think we have the 11th best defense in the league, then you've been inhaling CO2 straight from the tailpipe.

I think we'll be slightly better on defense this year... getting Perry back, and drafting Jones; but there's no overcoming Dom Capers. Can't win against the big boys with a 2-4 as your base. He'll be fired after this year though... so we tread water another year, and hopefully we get a good DC in here next year.

If you take the worst performance of any unit, they're not going to look good. Based on your criteria, the 49ers defense must suck because they gave up 42 to Seattle in Week 16. Funny thing is though, you only seem to use that criteria when discussing the Packers. Why is that?