Bad locker room in Miami?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Trying to figure this mystery out is like forming an opinion about who is at fault in a divorce. It's hard to know even if you know the couple well, and here we don't know shit about the personal relationships on that team.

Speaking of Big Weirdo, Incognito got kicked off of three teams for non-football behavioral issues. That's pretty damn weird. I can't think of another situation like this.

Incognito was physically abused by his dad as a kid, if reports are correct.

I don't put much stock in what teammate say. Big Weirdo did not fit-in with the guys, they probably had zero idea what was really going on with him.

I hope both guys get back on the team. The only thing I'm sure of is that the guys on the team saying "no big deal here" are dead wrong. In fact, they are now a big part of the problem. I'd like to see the personal problems worked out, not swept under carpet, and the team move forward. Sounds idealistic, but I expect it will eventually get fixed.

[woodbuck27]

One thing's for sure, Martin has killer representation: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...nathan-martin/

** The issue is Jonathan’s treatment by his teammates. Jonathan endured harassment that went far beyond the traditional locker room hazing.

** For the entire season-and-a-half that he was with the Dolphins, he attempted to befriend the same teammates who subjected him to the abuse with the hope that doing so would end the harassment.

** This is a textbook reaction of victims of bullying. Despite these efforts, the taunting continued

** Beyond the well-publicized voice mail with its racial epithet, Jonathan endured a malicious physical attack on him by a teammate, and daily vulgar comments.

** Jonathan looks forward to getting back to playing football. In the meantime, he will cooperate fully with the NFL investigation.

Comment woodbuck27:

Jonathan Martin`s case is now crystal clear.

[George Cumby]

Trying to figure this mystery out is like forming an opinion about who is at fault in a divorce. It's hard to know even if you know the couple well, and here we don't know shit about the personal relationships on that team.

Speaking of Big Weirdo, Incognito got kicked off of three teams for non-football behavioral issues. That's pretty damn weird. I can't think of another situation like this.

Incognito was physically abused by his dad as a kid, if reports are correct.

I don't put much stock in what teammate say. Big Weirdo did not fit-in with the guys, they probably had zero idea what was really going on with him.

I hope both guys get back on the team. The only thing I'm sure of is that the guys on the team saying "no big deal here" are dead wrong. In fact, they are now a big part of the problem. I'd like to see the personal problems worked out, not swept under carpet, and the team move forward. Sounds idealistic, but I expect it will eventually get fixed.

Nice post.

[KYPack]

Trying to figure this mystery out is like forming an opinion about who is at fault in a divorce. It's hard to know even if you know the couple well, and here we don't know shit about the personal relationships on that team.

Speaking of Big Weirdo, Incognito got kicked off of three teams for non-football behavioral issues. That's pretty damn weird. I can't think of another situation like this.

Incognito was physically abused by his dad as a kid, if reports are correct.

I don't put much stock in what teammate say. Big Weirdo did not fit-in with the guys, they probably had zero idea what was really going on with him.

I hope both guys get back on the team. The only thing I'm sure of is that the guys on the team saying "no big deal here" are dead wrong. In fact, they are now a big part of the problem. I'd like to see the personal problems worked out, not swept under carpet, and the team move forward. Sounds idealistic, but I expect it will eventually get fixed.

There was a Nebraska football player goofier than RI. You remember Christian Peter? Google that boy, must be something in the corn out there.

I hadn't heard the Icognito's father abused him, but I sure don't doubt, based on the stuff tumbling out of Sr's mouth.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon, the title honorary black man is as meaningless as it is nebulous. Was there a vote? What is the list of qualifications? Given the meaning in the locker room, does every African-American on the team even qualify? Can 1,2 or 5 Arfrican-Ameican men decide what it and isn't racism for others? Its reductive and ridiculous. The use of the slur in the voicemail mail makes it clear Incognito doesn't understand context because that is not a conversational colloquialism. And it appears that Martin did not accept it as a good natured jibe.

I agree completely with your second paragraph and I suspect that is why so many, perhaps expectedly, defend Incognito. But let's be clear. Their statements are also defending themselves against charges that they are miscreants that allowed this kind of behavior to occur. So there is a lot of self-interest here, especially against the charge of racism. It is odd that I have not seen anyone ask about the Vegas trip because legally, I would be more worried about extortion.

I think the first three reports of Martin's trouble were one, left the team, two, that he felt bullied and harassed and third was the Vegas trip. None of those are incorrect as we know the situation today. You cannot take Martin's actions and make a determination of fault based solely on whether charges of racism stick. Its obviously a lot more complicated than that.

Spin, spin, spin. Are you getting dizzy yet?

PB, give it up already, your hoped-for narrative doesn't hold water. You say, "The use of the slur in the voicemail mail makes it clear Incognito doesn't understand context because that is not a conversational colloquialism."

"makes it clear"? To whom? You, who doesn't know the individuals or the details of the relationship they had? You are the one who doesn't understand the context. You are superimposing your language rules and values on them - White man A says N-word to Black man B therefore White A is a racist pig. Well, sorry, they don't play by your rules. Did you miss the part that reportedly ALL the players talked trash to one another and Incognito said the same thing to Martin face to face and they both laughed about it? There's your context.

Black teammates that personally know both players say Incognito isn't a racist. Why don't you believe them? Why doesn't first-hand testimony mean anything to you? Where do you get this supernatural insight that somehow they missed? (cf, Mike Nifong in the Duke lacrosse case.)

You say, "You cannot take Martin's actions and make a determination of fault based solely on whether charges of racism stick." Correct. Likewise, you can't take Incognito's words on the voicemail and make a determination of fault based on whether they offend you and violate your subjective definition of racist behavior. The same for his ethnicity, appearance, or past behavior. This particular situation IS more complicated than that.....but many in the media and broader culture didn't think so and were all too eager to reach first for the race card.

Facts trump one’s own personal biases and presuppositions or they should at least in a fair society.

[pbmax]

I don't need to know the context of the conversation or relationship between Martin and Incognito because I do know Martin objected to it. He walked away from a multi-million dollar career to put a stop to it. he went to the authority structure on his team to voice his concerns. He talked to his agent.

So you ask us to base this on facts not personal bias. I have told you why I think the teammates testimony is somewhat self-serving (though still a net positive for Incognito).

Why don't you believe Martin's feet and forfeiture?

[denverYooper]

did she get a medal? That is what my son gets for just about everything, got a trophy last year in baseball where they didn't keep score. His response, "Dad this is cool but how much cooler will it be when I actually earn it?!" Yes my son you are doing it right.

No medals, no ribbons either. She took a detour during the race to check out the port-a-potties by the side of the course.

[Patler]

Why are we focusing only on the racism aspect of this? It is about much more than just racism.

[Zool]

Why are we focusing only on the racism aspect of this? It is about much more than just racism.

Because apparently that's the only thing people consider offensive.

[hoosier]

Why are we focusing only on the racism aspect of this? It is about much more than just racism.

A. focusing on race allows some people to interject ideology or make this story confirmation of their own political position.
B. the racialized language in this context is one of the hardest elements to rationalize as something harmless. "I'm going to kill you" could be a threat on Martin's life but, in the right context, it could also easily be a joke. (Anecdotally, just yesterday I passed on something very confidential to a colleague at work in an email, and told him that if he spilled the beans I would have to kill him. I did not worry for a moment that he would take it the wrong way. With my black colleagues, however, I would never in a thousand years use racist language in a joking way.)
C. We are not focusing only on race. Only a very small subset.

[Patler]

C. We are not focusing only on race. Only a very small subset.

Not the way I am perceiving this thread.

[hoosier]

So then the proper question is, Why does Patler perceive this thread to be predominantly about race?

[denverYooper]

There have been several passionate side discussions in the media throughout the week regarding racism so I can see where some might get the impression that this is the central issue. It's clear from Martin's lawyer's statement, however, that Martin has perceived a pattern of abuse over and above the normal rookie hazing that is part NFL locker-room fraternity. My take at the moment is that he figured it would just stop after a year and it didn't so he finally left the situation. At this point, I'm not sure if he originally intended to make it a legal battle or if that just came about after the initial discussion revolved around him being mentally unstable.

The first few days saw discussion of the walkout just being his mental instability. Then news started trickling out about hazing, and finally the initial voicemail was leaked out. Then, nothing more from Martin's camp. Later in the week, you had several Dolphins players essentially come out on Incognito's side and saw the court of opinion swing more toward the idea that Martin was "too soft" for the NFL and couldn't handle some teasing. Once that narrative gained traction, Martin lawyered up and the statement I linked above was posted. The statement is indicated to show a pattern of abuse over and above what he considered to be normal.

People get caught up in the language of specific statements and whether or not that is acceptable in the context of a peer group in which such language is generally taken as a common pidgin involved in a kind of warrior bonding, but the real issue seems to be a consistent pattern of abuse and a lack of support from teammates. Incognito has already been shown, over the course of his career, to engage in a pattern of such treatment. Maybe it's half in jest, and he's probably not really racist. But I'd be willing to bet that the evidence they have on record can be used to advance the threat of hate crime charges, and when it comes to evidence and execution, Martin's camp is holding some pretty high cards. They can make Incognito's life hell if they want.

In short, this could all just be about revenge.

One last thought: the Dolphins would do well to just learn to say "no comment" at this point. Notice that you don't hear many on the OL speaking on the record. The other position groups would be wise to follow.

[bobblehead]

So then the proper question is, Why does Patler perceive this thread to be predominantly about race?

Identity issues and a lack of feeling he belongs. He is a white dog with black ears....its very confusing.

[bobblehead]

There have been several passionate side discussions in the media throughout the week regarding racism so I can see where some might get the impression that this is the central issue. It's clear from Martin's lawyer's statement, however, that Martin has perceived a pattern of abuse over and above the normal rookie hazing that is part NFL locker-room fraternity. My take at the moment is that he figured it would just stop after a year and it didn't so he finally left the situation. At this point, I'm not sure if he originally intended to make it a legal battle or if that just came about after the initial discussion revolved around him being mentally unstable.

The first few days saw discussion of the walkout just being his mental instability. Then news started trickling out about hazing, and finally the initial voicemail was leaked out. Then, nothing more from Martin's camp. Later in the week, you had several Dolphins players essentially come out on Incognito's side and saw the court of opinion swing more toward the idea that Martin was "too soft" for the NFL and couldn't handle some teasing. Once that narrative gained traction, Martin lawyered up and the statement I linked above was posted. The statement is indicated to show a pattern of abuse over and above what he considered to be normal.

People get caught up in the language of specific statements and whether or not that is acceptable in the context of a peer group in which such language is generally taken as a common pidgin involved in a kind of warrior bonding, but the real issue seems to be a consistent pattern of abuse and a lack of support from teammates. Incognito has already been shown, over the course of his career, to engage in a pattern of such treatment. Maybe it's half in jest, and he's probably not really racist. But I'd be willing to bet that the evidence they have on record can be used to advance the threat of hate crime charges, and when it comes to evidence and execution, Martin's camp is holding some pretty high cards. They can make Incognito's life hell if they want.

In short, this could all just be about revenge.

One last thought: the Dolphins would do well to just learn to say "no comment" at this point. Notice that you don't hear many on the OL speaking on the record. The other position groups would be wise to follow.

Great post of the timeline and analyzing certain aspects. To me I simply look at history (a habit I have if you read in FYI). Richie is a DICK! No other way to put it. Is martin too soft? Maybe, but I doubt he has any real problems on a team like the packers....we still know richie is a dick, so based on their history I am tending to side with Martin on this.