So if the defense is terrible again this season?

[wist43]

I read somewhere the other day (twitter maybe?) that Raji was looking pretty good with his 'new' role trying to get after the passer and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads is wrong.

I actually do agree with Wist on some of his criticisms, and I know a lot of other Packerrats do too. However I'm willing and I'm sure they are too, to believe MM when he says he's going to have Capers be a bit more offensive on the defensive side of the ball. (see what I did there?)

On another note, isn't this whole 'Kool-aid' drinking thing getting kind of old? It used to be amusing, but its become cliche'. Any positive argument no matter how correct, is met with the 'kool-aid' response. yadda yadda yadda. I have yet to read a comment that says this defense will be a top 5 defense in the league this year. Or that Capers is the best DC in the league.

Excellent point. People who offer optimistic points of view are "kool aid drinkers," and people who offer negative points of view are "telling it like it is." At least in some posters' worlds.

Wait a minute... what, lol??

When have I ever said what you just said BZ?? That Raji should be eating up blockers and not being used as a penetrator??

I'm beginning to think those of you who criticize me, don't actually read what I write??!!

I want Raji to be a penetrator - it's what he does best. What he does not do best, is 2-gap, handle double teams, and eat up blocks... I've been saying that since he was drafted!! WTF??

Since 2011 I've argued he's been used incorrectly - just as everyone in the front (6-7) has been misused. It is TT and Capers who are not on the same page.

TT drafts Raji (a 1-gap penetrator), Perry (who will never be an OLB), D. Jones (who is a penetrator), Daniels (penetrator), et al - and then Capers misuses them. Raji in the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste - the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste!! Perry being played at OLB is straight out of the "square peg, round hole" school of doing things; and D. Jones and Daniels should be played as downlinemen in nickel pass rush situations - preferrably not the 2-4, lol...

Seriously, why do you guys blather off at the mouth assigning me positions I have not taken?? You may not like the tenor of my posts - but if you are going to attempt to argue against the position I've taken, you should at least read what I wrote - should you not??

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As for "Kool-Aid"... the reason some of you get that label is b/c you argue against a perfectly valid criticism (usually against Capers and the defense), as if the criticism is invalid, e.g. what Capers is doing, is the best that can be done!!

What you're left is - blaming the players (but not TT), and completely absolving Capers. That makes absolutely no sense... that's the Kool-Aid talking.

[pbmax]

BZnDallas, I might be reading that sentence wist bolded wrong (specifically what you are saying wist advocates with this part "and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads"), but Raji is one area I do agree with wist.

Raji is not an ideal space eater. He should be, as Fritz has pointed out before based on measurables, but he is much more easily moved than Pickett when double-teamed. He was, however, the second best at holding his ground on the team though and that is why he saw so much playing time in all sets. The trend for Raji has been from pass rushing penetrator to space eater.

Patler has pointed out that players, as they age, often learn new tricks (the smart ones anyway). And Raji might still pick up some things Pickett or Jolly could do. So he could morph into that role. But Raji clearly loved his quickness off the snap and at times looked like he wanted to be a penetrator (see either of the first two games versus Peterson in 2012). Raji might be the best player on the Packers in terms of quickness off the ball. Mathews is just as, if not more, explosive, but he gets called for offside a fair number of times. Raji does it without many flags.

As a fan, you want to see a player succeed and do what they do best. Coaches need to stitch together a defense that utilizes ALL the available talent. The problem with Raji is that he seems to have been using the lesser of his skills. Whether its attitude, decline, skill erosion, wear and tear or just what he has been asked to do is the $64,000 question.

[Joemailman]

So, to all you X's and O'S folks, if Raji is going to be 1-gapping at NT, whose responsibilities change to cover up the other gap?

[Carolina_Packer]

Can someone clear up why Pickett and Raji switched positions to begin with after the 2010 Super Bowl season? Was it at the start of 2011 or did Raji get hurt for a bit, they put Pickett in and decided to keep it that way? If Pickett was more versatile than Raji, why keep the change?

[KYPack]

So, to all you X's and O'S folks, if Raji is going to be 1-gapping at NT, whose responsibilities change to cover up the other gap?

Good question, there, Maildude.

Basically, in a 3-4, the only DL two gapping is the nose tackle (0 tech). There are exceptions to that rule based on individual talent (Haloti Ngata 2 gaps anywhere he plays for instance) but generally that's the case.

Who's responsibility for the gaps?

The defense. All 11 guys make their forces, get body on blockers and the free tackler makes the play. Some of the talk on here is kinda shit. Defense is simple, especially vs the run, until you fuck it up. The key to any running offense is to try and get your best blocker in front of your best runner and call those plays against the right situation and looks.

In a standard defense, it's 7 across the front with each man doing his job including being responsible for his gap. It goes beyond just the gap responsibility really. That defensive coach is trying to get his guys in position to put a hat on a hat and have a free man in a spot to make the tackle. The defense is clicking when all 11 guys move like one giant body. Certainly, if your 0 tech is getting wiped out or not covering one gap or the other, it's a huge setback for defensing the run.

Wist is definitely right about the fact that the run D sucked last season. Was it because Capers has become dated and stupid? Hardly.

I blame the shoes. That's right, the shoes the Packers wear.

Those shoes need to have better defenders in them.

There were many times last season defenders were in position to make tackles and plays and they failed. Was it coaching, yeah, could be. But it boils down to execution and last season we didn't get it done. I think we got outplayed last year, not out schemed.

[wist43]

So, to all you X's and O'S folks, if Raji is going to be 1-gapping at NT, whose responsibilities change to cover up the other gap?

I can't say how Capers will run the base... he sparingly played a base 3-4 when he had the personnel to run it better - how will he run it now that he doesn't have 'best-fit' players for the alignment??

That said, you can 1-gap out of the 3-4 base, but I think you have to crash the backside DE of which ever way the NT goes, and the OLB on that side takes on more responsibility for setting the edge on that side. As long as everyone executes to their responsibility, it shouldn't be a problem.

There is more than one way to skin a cat - but one thing is for sure, Capers can't be trusted to use the players according to their strengths - he's proven that.

[pbmax]

Can someone clear up why Pickett and Raji switched positions to begin with after the 2010 Super Bowl season? Was it at the start of 2011 or did Raji get hurt for a bit, they put Pickett in and decided to keep it that way? If Pickett was more versatile than Raji, why keep the change?

Ironically, Capers wanted to move Raji to a position where he would be single-teamed more and be able to penetrate more (this is more assumption than established, reported fact). It also allowed Pickett to move inside where he was more comfortable. McGinn was the first to catch wind of this switch and reported that the Packers called the defense an Eagle Oakie. It was base 3-4 personnel, but aligned the front five like they were playing a 4-3 under. One OLB was aligned like Sean Jones in Fritz Shumur's defense (7 tech). The other aligned like Wayne Simmons.

It might have been an attempt to stiffen the run D. In 2009 with Pick in the middle, it was a nightmare to run against. In 2010 with Raji in the middle, it was easier.

Now the story conflicts from there. In most base looks, the Packers don't let the lineman Jet upfield, regardless of whether you are a nose tackle or 3 or 5 tech DT. Raji did not fare well there, it was clear Pickett felt more at home at NT than at DE like he was in 2010.

Regardless, the return of Pickett to the middle didn't help the run D. Now it may not have all been about these two. Jenkiins was gone, Jolly was gone, Corey Williams was gone.

But the odd thing about Raji in the middle this year is that there is not much talk about adjustment up front. Trgovac said they might play less 2-gap (he said it was ultimately up to Capers who had not indicated that the calls will change), though he insists that they do not play as much as people assume. And 1 gap doesn't mean you are penetrating up the field like Chris Doleman and Keith Millard either. They were pass rushing first and only playing run D if they saw the ball in a RB's hands.

So I don't think their roles and responsibilities change much. It looks more and more like there will simply be more and different people on the field trying to take away specific things from an offense. Surprisingly, this approach is probably least effective against a San Fran offense, that does multiple things well with similar personnel. It will work better against Seattle unless Percy Harvin can actually play and they find replacements for Rice and Tate.

[BZnDallas]

Wait a minute... what, lol??

When have I ever said what you just said BZ?? That Raji should be eating up blockers and not being used as a penetrator??

I'm beginning to think those of you who criticize me, don't actually read what I write??!!

I want Raji to be a penetrator - it's what he does best. What he does not do best, is 2-gap, handle double teams, and eat up blocks... I've been saying that since he was drafted!! WTF??

Since 2011 I've argued he's been used incorrectly - just as everyone in the front (6-7) has been misused. It is TT and Capers who are not on the same page.

TT drafts Raji (a 1-gap penetrator), Perry (who will never be an OLB), D. Jones (who is a penetrator), Daniels (penetrator), et al - and then Capers misuses them. Raji in the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste - the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste!! Perry being played at OLB is straight out of the "square peg, round hole" school of doing things; and D. Jones and Daniels should be played as downlinemen in nickel pass rush situations - preferrably not the 2-4, lol...

Seriously, why do you guys blather off at the mouth assigning me positions I have not taken?? You may not like the tenor of my posts - but if you are going to attempt to argue against the position I've taken, you should at least read what I wrote - should you not??

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As for "Kool-Aid"... the reason some of you get that label is b/c you argue against a perfectly valid criticism (usually against Capers and the defense), as if the criticism is invalid, e.g. what Capers is doing, is the best that can be done!!

What you're left is - blaming the players (but not TT), and completely absolving Capers. That makes absolutely no sense... that's the Kool-Aid talking.

Whoa! Did I type what I was trying to say incorrectly? I thought I said Raji was looking good trying to penetrate (or get after the passer) and not just eat up blockers? Did I not say that?

[BZnDallas]

My apologies... after re-reading what I wrote it is pretty confusing... what I was trying to say is that I read somewhere that Raji was looking good being a penetrator and NOT just taking on blockers... then I was trying to be funny by saying that Wist hasn't told us enough that is the way it should have been all along... sorry Wist ... I really was trying to give you credit...

The koolaid thing just gets old... Im sure there are times when its appropriate, just seems like its a default response now...

[bobblehead]

TT drafts Raji (a 1-gap penetrator), Perry (who will never be an OLB), D. Jones (who is a penetrator), Daniels (penetrator), et al - and then Capers misuses them. Raji in the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste - the "2-4 jumbo" is a waste!!

Wist, I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, and sometimes I think you are a bit too negative about things. One area I don't agree with you though is this. Datone is a well rounded 3-4 DE. Look at his college game tape. He isn't just a penatrator. Perry also has all the skills necessary to be an effective OLB. His strength will never be coverage, but in our D, the OLB isn't supposed to be running across the field with a TE or a RB. He occupies a zone. I am pretty sure he can back peddle 4-7 yards and stand in an area. Many a lessor athlete has excelled doing it.

The drafting of Worthy and Daniels (who are primarily penetrators) was a direct response to losing Jenkins and the effect not having any pass rush from the DL. I am not sure what is going on with Perry, but I haven't totally thrown in the towel on him yet as he does flash at times.

Basically the thing that people get sick of is the all or nothing mentality. If you are Wist and Red then everything is hopeless and wrong. If we disagree with you we are totally opposite spectrum and guzzling Kool Aid. It would be nice if you would admit at some point that Capers has in the past, and is capable of fielding a top 10 or even 5 defense. He is not the coaching equivalent of Kurt Schottenheimer or Slocum. He has dealt with a lot of key injuries that mess up his plans.

For my part I am in full agreement with you that we continued to play WAY too much 2-4 long after the talent still standing didn't work very well with the alignment, and in situations that made me scratch my head like 2nd and goal from the 1. The truth (as often is the case) lies somewhere in the middle. Capers certainly could be better, but he is far from a bumbling moron who has no idea how to coach defense.

[wist43]

My apologies... after re-reading what I wrote it is pretty confusing... what I was trying to say is that I read somewhere that Raji was looking good being a penetrator and NOT just taking on blockers... then I was trying to be funny by saying that Wist hasn't told us enough that is the way it should have been all along... sorry Wist ... I really was trying to give you credit...

The koolaid thing just gets old... Im sure there are times when its appropriate, just seems like its a default response now...

You had some double-negative stuff going on there... I had to read it a few times just to try to get past the 'no' and 'no', lol... you would have gotten red scribbles all over your paper had it been a sentence you handed in to English 101

As for the "kool-aid" comment... don't know where that came from - I don't use the term much, can't remember the last time I used it

If I'm doing this ' ' after trying to penetrate the skulls around here, I'll stoop to calling you guys "homers", lol

[wist43]

Ironically, Capers wanted to move Raji to a position where he would be single-teamed more and be able to penetrate more (this is more assumption than established, reported fact). It also allowed Pickett to move inside where he was more comfortable. McGinn was the first to catch wind of this switch and reported that the Packers called the defense an Eagle Oakie. It was base 3-4 personnel, but aligned the front five like they were playing a 4-3 under. One OLB was aligned like Sean Jones in Fritz Shumur's defense (7 tech). The other aligned like Wayne Simmons.

It might have been an attempt to stiffen the run D. In 2009 with Pick in the middle, it was a nightmare to run against. In 2010 with Raji in the middle, it was easier.

We didn't run enough base 3-4 for it to matter much - most of the damage against us in the run game game against the 2-4 "jumbo nickel", and some against the pass rush nickel.

Now the story conflicts from there. In most base looks, the Packers don't let the lineman Jet upfield, regardless of whether you are a nose tackle or 3 or 5 tech DT. Raji did not fare well there, it was clear Pickett felt more at home at NT than at DE like he was in 2010.

It was Pickett who was the 1-trick pony. At this stage of his career, what ability he had to get down the line, or push the pocket, is gone - he is strictly a NT that can stand in a phone booth and slug it out.

At least Raji could play NT in a pinch, as long as they kept a leash on his snap count - but they didn't do that either. So Raji wore down (MM's "he's a young man" comment comes back to mind) and his effectiveness anywhere they played him was diminished - I don't put this on Raji, I put it on Capers.

Regardless, the return of Pickett to the middle didn't help the run D. Now it may not have all been about these two. Jenkiins was gone, Jolly was gone, Corey Williams was gone.

But the odd thing about Raji in the middle this year is that there is not much talk about adjustment up front. Trgovac said they might play less 2-gap (he said it was ultimately up to Capers who had not indicated that the calls will change), though he insists that they do not play as much as people assume. And 1 gap doesn't mean you are penetrating up the field like Chris Doleman and Keith Millard either. They were pass rushing first and only playing run D if they saw the ball in a RB's hands.

So I don't think their roles and responsibilities change much. It looks more and more like there will simply be more and different people on the field trying to take away specific things from an offense. Surprisingly, this approach is probably least effective against a San Fran offense, that does multiple things well with similar personnel. It will work better against Seattle unless Percy Harvin can actually play and they find replacements for Rice and Tate.

As I've been saying - I think not resigning Pickett, and not really having a legimate, 2-gapping NT on the Roster - means they will necessarily have to play a more penetrating scheme; or, the alternative will be misplaying Raji and Boyd as 2-gap NT's.

If Capers does that?? Then Raji will wear down again, and we'll necessarily be playing our nickel pass rush guys, like Daniels, at DE in the base. If we play base 20% of the time, it had better be with guys like Boyd, Guion, Worthy, and Thorton.

I don't want to see Daniels or D. Jones in the base at all, and I'd prefer to limit Raji's snaps in the base as well. I want all of those guys fresh for subpackage pass rush duty.

[pbmax]

But if you don't see penetrating calls (Jet) but you do see 1 gapping Raji, will that be enough to make him effective?

[Carolina_Packer]

Wist, I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, and sometimes I think you are a bit too negative about things. One area I don't agree with you though is this. Datone is a well rounded 3-4 DE. Look at his college game tape. He isn't just a penatrator. Perry also has all the skills necessary to be an effective OLB. His strength will never be coverage, but in our D, the OLB isn't supposed to be running across the field with a TE or a RB. He occupies a zone. I am pretty sure he can back peddle 4-7 yards and stand in an area. Many a lessor athlete has excelled doing it.

The drafting of Worthy and Daniels (who are primarily penetrators) was a direct response to losing Jenkins and the effect not having any pass rush from the DL. I am not sure what is going on with Perry, but I haven't totally thrown in the towel on him yet as he does flash at times.

Basically the thing that people get sick of is the all or nothing mentality. If you are Wist and Red then everything is hopeless and wrong. If we disagree with you we are totally opposite spectrum and guzzling Kool Aid. It would be nice if you would admit at some point that Capers has in the past, and is capable of fielding a top 10 or even 5 defense. He is not the coaching equivalent of Kurt Schottenheimer or Slocum. He has dealt with a lot of key injuries that mess up his plans.

For my part I am in full agreement with you that we continued to play WAY too much 2-4 long after the talent still standing didn't work very well with the alignment, and in situations that made me scratch my head like 2nd and goal from the 1. The truth (as often is the case) lies somewhere in the middle. Capers certainly could be better, but he is far from a bumbling moron who has no idea how to coach defense.

Well stated. I agree with what you say. I think most fans know there is something wrong, but do not necessarily agree upon the root cause. It would seem that MM knows that something is wrong as well, but has not yet made Capers pay with his job. If there is not significant improvement this year, MM knows he has to make a change. Does that mean that Capers will run less "Big Nickel"? Only they know. Do the personnel changes along the DL indicate that they will play the nickel differently?

I think we can all agree that stopping the run and winning the down and distance battle and dictating terms on third down is critical. Now they just need to find a way to do it.

As for Nickel sub, here is a cool article from 2010: http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2010/...o-package.html There's a video link of the Cowboy game where we dominated, which is cool. I believe it was KY who said they've got to get home when they send pressure. So true.

[BZnDallas]

You had some double-negative stuff going on there... I had to read it a few times just to try to get past the 'no' and 'no', lol... you would have gotten red scribbles all over your paper had it been a sentence you handed in to English 101

As for the "kool-aid" comment... don't know where that came from - I don't use the term much, can't remember the last time I used it

If I'm doing this ' ' after trying to penetrate the skulls around here, I'll stoop to calling you guys "homers", lol

HAHA!! Glad we got past all that. The koolaid thing was more of a general comment that might have been more aimed at Rut, but I think I was just trying at a public service announcement