So if the defense is terrible again this season?

[wist43]

That is true. Different site ranks the D's differently. The NFL site criteria is yards allowed. Some sites go by points or a weighted formula. The GBP had a bottom tier D last season no matter how ya cut it. We need to get better.

I think you are too hung up on criticizing Capers. The guy is a brilliant defensive coach. he came in and straightened out our D when he got here. That said, it's probably time to change things up if the D doesn't perform this season.

The constant drone about the 2-4 is annoying. The 2-4 is a nickel. When we play it with Neal or Perry at one LB, it's really a 30 front anyhow. 3-3, 2-4 is basically the same set, especially on the back end. We need help at multiple spots. George Allen, Buddy Ryan, & Fritz Shurmr couldn't make a go of our D last season. Capers was undermanned last season and hopefully will have the troops he needs this year. A factor in our poor performance last season was an offensive team that was woeful with ARod out. We just didn't have an offense that could give the D a blow and they wore down.

Sometimes when sending in the defenses, you have to give to get. If a coverage is giving up "routine" 17 yard completions, it still might be the right scheme. The safeties made few plays last season and it's tough to dial up an ideal coverage when you get such scanty help from the back line like we had last year.

The reason to harp on the 2-4, is b/c Capers plays it far more than any other team in the league - if he played even amounts of 3-3 and 4-2 and the numbers were as pathetic as the 2-4, then there would be no hope whatsoever, and I would figure the personnel to be the problem instead of the coaching.

But the way Capers plays the nickel is an outlier compared to the rest of the league - a huge, throbbing outlier.

As I mentioned in another post, I read an article recently in which it detailed the amount of nickel/dime that teams are playing - the Saints played more nickel/dime than anyone in the league, 85% of snaps. The Packers came in 5th or 6th on that list as I remembered.

The Saints played the 3-3 and 4-2 about evenly, and no 2-4; whereas the Packers played no 3-3 or 4-2, and 2-4 65% of the time. The Niners and Redskins played the 2-4 in the 40 percentile; no one else played it above 30%.

That is an outlier compared to the rest of the league.

If it were an outlier that were working - being a copycat league, the rest of the league would be following suit, and Capers would be knighted as a genius; instead, the Packers defense is garbage, and some Packer fans have actually noticed... some even calling "for his head on a pike".

To tell you the truth, I'm a bit surprised the homers aren't more on Capers's case - b/c if Capers is not to blame, then TT is - yet I don't hear anyone complaining about him either. It would seem that Packer fans are content with garbage defense.

Strange... almost like the "long suffering" years of the 70's and 80's, no??

[wist43]

Try this logic - if we play 2-4 65% of the time, and dime another 15% of the time...

Isn't the 5th DB on the roster much, much more important than the 3rd DL?? and isn't the 6th DB much more important than the 4th DL??

And since we're always playing 4 LB's, aren't the LB's more important than all the DL??

Why then is TT investing all those draft picks in defensive linemen?? Raji, Worthy, Perry, Datone Jones, Neal, Daniels... that's 3 first round picks, 2 second rounders, and a 4th rounder.

While Hawk and Jones are both below average players; Matthews is hurt often enough; and he tries to fill the other outside spot with guys like Walden and now with converted defensive linemen...

You guys don't like to talk about the 2-4, but the 2-4 is the defense we play; so if you're going to talk about Green Bay's defense - it's impossible to avoid the subject; that is, if you really want to discuss the defense beyond the superficial.

[3irty1]

You're being intentionally thick and misleading.

The 5th DB is extremely important and is much clearer than "3rd DL" as DL in general are much more specialized and situational than most DB's. Yes the LB are the most important unit on the defense because they have the edge rushers. Its super common to draft a college DE and convert them to OLB in a 3-4, in fact that's where most of them come from. They are edge rushers first and foremost.

Try this logic - if you're advocating a 3-3 but think one of our LB in a 2-4 is a DL anyways aren't you saying the solution to our defense is the difference between a guy standing or not?

[wist43]

Try this logic - if you're advocating a 3-3 but think one of our LB in a 2-4 is a DL anyways aren't you saying the solution to our defense is the difference between a guy standing or not?

So you're saying the way Capers ran it last year was the cat's meow??

You still have the same problem against the run, i.e. you only have 4 guys in the box, 2 of whom are well below average players (Hawk and B.Jones); and, if the offense passes and you are in the jumbo nickel to account for the possibility of a run, now you're getting exactly zero pass rush up the middle. To make matters worse, as Capers seemed paralyzed by the uncertainty of whether it was going to be a pass or run, he played the 2-4 very static, i.e. little presnap movement, e.g. the offense knew who was rushing, and from where - how many times did we see the OLB's rush upfield, assisted by the OT's as they knew what was coming, zero pass rush from the interior DL, and the QB frying bacon and eggs while reading the paper in a mindnumbingly comfortable pocket??

Both problems are taken care of by going to a true 3-3, i.e. DL with their hands on the ground - preferrably inside the tackles; and, at the same time having that DE sized OLB on the strong side.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys even watch football at all?? Don't know what Dom's excuse is, but since he seems out of his depth these days, McCarthy has been forced to get his hands dirty on that side of the ball.

We'll see if MM actually forces some changes. The personnel are upgraded, so even if dunderdummy stays status quo, I expect we'll be a little better, but if he goes thru the season playing 2-4 nickel 65% of the time, and tries to use it as our base - we'll be making another quick exit from the playoffs.

[KYPack]

Another area that has hurt our D seems minor, but does impact. A big thing in a Zone Blitz D is secondary blitzers that can bring serious heat and get home to notch a sack. we don't have any of those guys and haven't since CW and Nick Collins left the club. If HaHa and Tramon can start to help in that area, it would pick the D up a bit.

[Rutnstrut]

Wist, I applaud you for calling it like it is and note being drunk on the kool-aid that flows freely on this site. Bottom line, I have zero confidence in Capers and believe it will be another horrible season defense wise. The coaches and homers will blame it on injuries, which is already starting. When you have this many injuries to key players, this many years in a row, it's not a coincidence. Which leads us to coaching and higher not making the needed changes.

[bobblehead]

Wist, I applaud you for calling it like it is and note being drunk on the kool-aid that flows freely on this site. Bottom line, I have zero confidence in Capers and believe it will be another horrible season defense wise. The coaches and homers will blame it on injuries, which is already starting. When you have this many injuries to key players, this many years in a row, it's not a coincidence. Which leads us to coaching and higher not making the needed changes.

I have criticized MM for not enough contact in practice leading to injuries, but you certainly can't be sure its not a coincidence. If you think its the fault of the coaching staff I would ask why? I have stated my opinion many times, but to simply say its not a coincidence without any reason/evidence is foolish.

[pbmax]

Another area that has hurt our D seems minor, but does impact. A big thing in a Zone Blitz D is secondary blitzers that can bring serious heat and get home to notch a sack. we don't have any of those guys and haven't since CW and Nick Collins left the club. If HaHa and Tramon can start to help in that area, it would pick the D up a bit.

Nice point. Its dovetails nicely with the need at both positions. I am surprised Jones isn't more effective as a blitzer.

[pittstang5]

My biggest concern this year is the Run D. No more Pickett, Jolly and Wilson - 3 big boys that helped stuff the run. Daniels, Raji, Boyd and Jones, when I hear their names, I don't think run stuffers, I think pass rushers. The Viking guy (Guion?) and Worthy can't get on the field (I have my doubts about Worthy seeing the field this year). The rest of the D-lineman are rookies. I hope having Peppers helps, but I think we get gashed alot this year.

[Guiness]

My biggest concern this year is the Run D. No more Pickett, Jolly and Wilson - 3 big boys that helped stuff the run. Daniels, Raji, Boyd and Jones, when I hear their names, I don't think run stuffers, I think pass rushers. The Viking guy (Guion?) and Worthy can't get on the field (I have my doubts about Worthy seeing the field this year). The rest of the D-lineman are rookies. I hope having Peppers helps, but I think we get gashed alot this year.

Can't believe Pickett is still unemployed. He made what, $6M last year? He played quite well, I'm surprised he hasn't signed on somewhere for at least $2-3M.

He isn't hurt, is he?

edit: little piece on him at JSO, he's healthy and waiting

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/free-agent-ryan-pickett-waiting-for-a-call-b99303242z1-265637431.html

[wist43]

My biggest concern this year is the Run D. No more Pickett, Jolly and Wilson - 3 big boys that helped stuff the run. Daniels, Raji, Boyd and Jones, when I hear their names, I don't think run stuffers, I think pass rushers. The Viking guy (Guion?) and Worthy can't get on the field (I have my doubts about Worthy seeing the field this year). The rest of the D-lineman are rookies. I hope having Peppers helps, but I think we get gashed alot this year.

We had one of the worst run defenses in the league last year as it was... but this makes for an interesting analysis.

We had one of the worst run defenses b/c we were continually gashed when Capers was in his "jumbo nickel" with Pickett and Raji essentially tasked with taking on the entire offensive line - and, as I've pointed out many times, this idiotic alignment also produced diminished returns in pass defense b/c Raji and Pickett generated exactly zero pass rush up the middle, so it was the worst of both worlds.

What is now giving me a little optimism however, is the fact that they did not resign Pickett and Jolly, so that idiotic "jumbo 2-4" shouldn't be played nearly as much - you would think it would mean much more base, and more 3-3 nickel, both of which are remedies for what was wrong last year.

Having Peppers will help, b/c he is a stud, and if Matthews stays healthy we can't help but be improved; however, if Capers insists on running some version of his "jumbo 2-4", then we'll get pretty close to the same results.

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to matchup with 3 wides with base personnel - depending on opponent. Some of the pass happy teams, when they go 3 wides, it isn't some ruse to open up their running game - they mean to pass, and pass a lot; go ahead and jump into a 3-3 on 1st and 10, or 2nd and 6 against their 3 wides, I wouldn't have a problem with that; but if we're going up against a run heavy team, that throws 3 wides out there on 1st down, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to match up with them in our base.

Pass defense - isn't that supposed to be the strength of Brad Jones's game?? If an opponent is in 3 wides, and we're in base... you're still going to drop both ILB's, and 1 OLB usually... that's 7 guys in coverage.

I actually think we will be better b/c of the subtraction of Pickett and Jolly (both players I like) - for no other reason than it should force Capers to use the personnel he's been given to their strengths.

[red]

Can't believe Pickett is still unemployed. He made what, $6M last year? He played quite well, I'm surprised he hasn't signed on somewhere for at least $2-3M.

He isn't hurt, is he?

edit: little piece on him at JSO, he's healthy and waiting
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...265637431.html

Hes a known quantity that at his age probably doesnt need TC.

Teams will have as many young players as they can on their rosters right now. Once they weed all the youngsters that cant play out, and once injuries start pilling up, pickett will be quickly snached up

[BZnDallas]

Wist, I applaud you for calling it like it is and note being drunk on the kool-aid that flows freely on this site. Bottom line, I have zero confidence in Capers and believe it will be another horrible season defense wise. The coaches and homers will blame it on injuries, which is already starting. When you have this many injuries to key players, this many years in a row, it's not a coincidence. Which leads us to coaching and higher not making the needed changes.

I read somewhere the other day (twitter maybe?) that Raji was looking pretty good with his 'new' role trying to get after the passer and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads is wrong. I actually do agree with Wist on some of his criticisms, and I know a lot of other Packerrats do too. However I'm willing and I'm sure they are too, to believe MM when he says he's going to have Capers be a bit more offensive on the defensive side of the ball. (see what I did there?)

On another note, isn't this whole 'Kool-aid' drinking thing getting kind of old? It used to be amusing, but its become cliche'. Any positive argument no matter how correct, is met with the 'kool-aid' response. yadda yadda yadda. I have yet to read a comment that says this defense will be a top 5 defense in the league this year. Or that Capers is the best DC in the league. Had I read one of those, I'd be the first to throw out Kool-aid drinkers. But fans being optimistic on a website chatting about what improvements have been made or what losses the team might have endured during the off-season and what that might mean in the upcoming season, has nothing to do with your tiresome, built in 'kool-aid' response. Please find another anecdote to run into the ground.

Injuries, on the other hand. Please tell me what the coaching can do to fix the injury problems. As far as I know, the NFL mandates how many practices you can hold and how many days in row and all that mess. If I'm wrong on that, apologies good sir. The higher ups? Alright I might could get behind that, can you show me where our training staff is practicing unsafe and unrealistic stretching techniques? Or that their regimen is so far different than what other teams do, so much so that we need to find new ones? If so, problem solved! I'm not holding my breath. What else does that leave? Coincidence it seems, maybe its time to get over it?

[BZnDallas]

Hes a known quantity that at his age probably doesnt need TC.

Teams will have as many young players as they can on their rosters right now. Once they weed all the youngsters that cant play out, and once injuries start pilling up, pickett will be quickly snached up

Agreed. I could see Pick coming down here to Big D at some point if the price got low enough. Cowboys don't have much cap space, but have plenty of space for talent, even if it is a lil elderly.

[Fritz]

I read somewhere the other day (twitter maybe?) that Raji was looking pretty good with his 'new' role trying to get after the passer and not take on blockers like Wist has not quite gotten through our heads is wrong. I actually do agree with Wist on some of his criticisms, and I know a lot of other Packerrats do too. However I'm willing and I'm sure they are too, to believe MM when he says he's going to have Capers be a bit more offensive on the defensive side of the ball. (see what I did there?)

On another note, isn't this whole 'Kool-aid' drinking thing getting kind of old? It used to be amusing, but its become cliche'. Any positive argument no matter how correct, is met with the 'kool-aid' response. yadda yadda yadda. I have yet to read a comment that says this defense will be a top 5 defense in the league this year. Or that Capers is the best DC in the league. Had I read one of those, I'd be the first to throw out Kool-aid drinkers. But fans being optimistic on a website chatting about what improvements have been made or what losses the team might have endured during the off-season and what that might mean in the upcoming season, has nothing to do with your tiresome, built in 'kool-aid' response. Please find another anecdote to run into the ground.

Injuries, on the other hand. Please tell me what the coaching can do to fix the injury problems. As far as I know, the NFL mandates how many practices you can hold and how many days in row and all that mess. If I'm wrong on that, apologies good sir. The higher ups? Alright I might could get behind that, can you show me where our training staff is practicing unsafe and unrealistic stretching techniques? Or that their regimen is so far different than what other teams do, so much so that we need to find new ones? If so, problem solved! I'm not holding my breath. What else does that leave? Coincidence it seems, maybe its time to get over it?

Excellent point. People who offer optimistic points of view are "kool aid drinkers," and people who offer negative points of view are "telling it like it is." At least in some posters' worlds.