After 1 preseason game - Pack it in, the season is already over

[wist43]

The point of the thread is that Capers changed exactly nothing in terms of scheme - since the scheme is unsound - that should be disheartening to every Packer fan.

Ignorance is bliss though I suppose - go team go

[Patler]

Ignorance is making conclusions about anything on the basis of one preseason game, especially when starters either didn't play, or played all of about 10 snaps.
The first preseason game, and much of all preseason games, is to evaluate players in various aspects. It is much less about practicing scheme. Good evaluators put players in situations to assess skills/abilities. The situations they are put in may or may not be related to the schemes that will be played during the season.

If you only knew half of what you pretend to know, a valuable discussion could be had.

[wist43]

Here's a question for you guys...

If you're an opposing Offensive Coordinator, and you want to play ball control and keep Rodgers and Co. on the sideline - how do you do that?? What is going to be the core of your gameplan??

The answer is simple - run 3 wides, at a minimum, all game long - why?? Because you know exactly how Dom Capers will counter... he'll counter with his mind-numbing 2-4. Once Capers is in the 2-4, as an offensive coordinator, you can now do whatever you want, b/c you know exactly how Capers will react to everything you do. You know he will blitz the corner from the slot when you go to 4 wides, so you can entice him to do that, and attack the weakness; you can run the ball down our throats b/c Capers will only have 4 guys in the box, and you know the OLB's are going to rush upfield; on and on...

Our defense stinks - first and foremost - b/c of Capers scheme, and how he misuses everyone. As for the players - we don't even really know what we have on defense b/c everyone is being misused. So if the players are being misused, how can they be to blame??

I put 80% of the blame on Capers, 10% on MM, and 10% on TT... but in terms of the ultimate responsibility, that lies with TT. TT and Capers are not on the same page, but TT doesn't seem to care.

[wist43]

Ignorance is making conclusions about anything on the basis of one preseason game, especially when starters either didn't play, or played all of about 10 snaps.
The first preseason game, and much of all preseason games, is to evaluate players in various aspects. It is much less about practicing scheme. Good evaluators put players in situations to assess skills/abilities. The situations they are put in may or may not be related to the schemes that will be played during the season.

If you only knew half of what you pretend to know, a valuable discussion could be had.

The scheme is unsound - the scheme didn't change - something wrong with that picture?? Just b/c they run vanilla everything in the preseason, and you're not going to see "live bullets", that doesn't change the fact that the scheme Capers is using is the equivalent of firing blanks.

The Packers brain trust obviously evaluated the situation, absolved Capers and the coaching, and laid all of the blame on the players - that was exactly the wrong conclusion to reach. Their solution?? Get rid of some of the players, and keep trying to squeeze square pegs into round holes.

In some ways, it's been amazing to watch TT and Capers trying to work together. TT has his philosophy about player procurement, and doesn't much care about how things work on the field; and Capers couldn't care less about the players - NT's playing cornerback?? Sure, why not

Seriously, I can't believe that TT hasn't fired Capers long ago... or at least forced MM to fire him.

We have half of a very good team. The other half is a complete mess, but no one at 1265 seems to care.

[Pugger]

The scheme is unsound - the scheme didn't change - something wrong with that picture?? Just b/c they run vanilla everything in the preseason, and you're not going to see "live bullets", that doesn't change the fact that the scheme Capers is using is the equivalent of firing blanks.

The Packers brain trust obviously evaluated the situation, absolved Capers and the coaching, and laid all of the blame on the players - that was exactly the wrong conclusion to reach. Their solution?? Get rid of some of the players, and keep trying to squeeze square pegs into round holes.

In some ways, it's been amazing to watch TT and Capers trying to work together. TT has his philosophy about player procurement, and doesn't much care about how things work on the field; and Capers couldn't care less about the players - NT's playing cornerback?? Sure, why not

Seriously, I can't believe that TT hasn't fired Capers long ago... or at least forced MM to fire him.

We have half of a very good team. The other half is a complete mess, but no one at 1265 seems to care.

How do you know the scheme hasn't changed? Because of what we witnessed in one preseason game?

[wist43]

How do you know the scheme hasn't changed? Because of what we witnessed in one preseason game?

Yeah... b/c our base alignments were the same as last year. They didn't change. Did you miss that when you were watching the game??

They'll probably not be running a "jumbo nickel" (thank God) - I can't imagine that Capers hasn't learned that lesson, but the 2-4 is very unsound the way that Capers uses it. He's still running it, and the personnel are largely the same - so I don't know why you guys expect that things will be substantially different??

Peppers helps, and a healthy everyone can only help... but, we simply don't have the personnel to run a 3-4/2-4. Given our personnel, if we're not going to go back to a 4-3, we can get away with running a 3-4 base by employing some 4-3 principles; but nothing can be done to help the nickel alignment if Capers insists on benching defensive linemen in favor of either/or Hawk and Brad Jones.

I think we'll wear down as the season goes along, and we lose guys to injury... Capers won't adjust, and we'll likely have a repeat of last year. If everyone stays healthy, we can be better than last year, but that isn't saying much - we were terrible last year.

[ThunderDan]

When the Packers run the 2-4 and they have Neal/Perry - D Jones - Daniels - Peppers in the game that is going to be a bigger front than a lot of 4-3 teams that take a LB out for their nickel.

That's what I don't get about Wist's complaints. Our 2-4 is really an inverted 4-2 nickel. With Mathews in the game that 2-4 does become smaller and can cause problems in the run game.

Hopefully you run the 2-4 and use Mathews as one of the 2 ILBs were he can either drop into coverage or become the blitzer in that package. In fact this wouldn't surprise me and set up a lot of zone blitzes where Peppers or Perry drop off and Matthews and a CB/S can be the 3rd and 4th rushers and overload one side of the line.

[wist43]

When the Packers run the 2-4 and they have Neal/Perry - D Jones - Daniels - Peppers in the game that is going to be a bigger front than a lot of 4-3 teams that take a LB out for their nickel.

That's what I don't get about Wist's complaints. Our 2-4 is really an inverted 4-2 nickel. With Mathews in the game that 2-4 does become smaller and can cause problems in the run game.

Hopefully you run the 2-4 and use Mathews as one of the 2 ILBs were he can either drop into coverage or become the blitzer in that package. In fact this wouldn't surprise me and set up a lot of zone blitzes where Peppers or Perry drop off and Matthews and a CB/S can be the 3rd and 4th rushers and overload one side of the line.

I've laid the logic out many times - which should be obvious on the field, but most of you can't seem to see it for some reason. Capers obviously doesn't get it...

1. The first problem with it is run defense.

The 2-4 is supposed to tilted toward dealing with the pass, but Capers runs it as his base much of the time. All an opposing OC need do is put 3 wides on the field, and he knows he's going to get a 2-4 with 4 men in the box - easy to run on.

Capers way of dealing with the run was to go to the "jumbo nickel" with Raji and Pickett at DT - it was a fundamentally flawed approach b/c if you're in the nickel to begin with to deal with the pass, now you're putting 2 non-passing rushing fat guys on the line - and still not sound against the run b/c you only have 4 men in the box. And the 4 men we have in the box are not SF quality defenders... there is no Justin Smith, Navarro Bowman, or Patrick Willis clogging up the middle in our 2-4 nickel. Instead we have Brad Jones and AJ Hawk.

Not surprisingly, we routinely get run over out of this alignment.

2. The second major problem with the way Capers runs his 2-4 is personnel.

TT has not invested in LB's, he has invested in DL. Everyone can clamour all they want about Perry being an OLB - he is not an OLB, he is a situational 4-3 DE, and I expect that as soon as his contract is up, he'll be gone to a 4-3 team.

Furthermore, 2 of the LB's that are on the field in the 2-4, Brad Jones and AJ Hawk, are below average NFL starters - and most teams would be looking to replace them - not the Packers though... Capers instead gameplans to ensure that these 2 substandard players are on the field 24/7 - while the talent that TT invested in is standing on the sideline.

To make better use of the personnel TT has brought in, we should be running a 3-3 nickel. It gets the DL on the field, gives us more size and flexibility up front, and gets one of the 2 ILB slugs mercifully sent to the sidelines.

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Our defense has been putrid for 3 years running now - and the defense we run is the 2-4. You guys blame the players, and never see fault with how they are being used.

Like I said, Capers puts a NT out at corner, and you guys never bat an eyelash... the fault is obviously the NT's for not getting the job done.

[ThunderDan]

I've laid the logic out many times - which should be obvious on the field, but most of you can't seem to see it for some reason. Capers obviously doesn't get it...

1. The first problem with it is run defense.

The 2-4 is supposed to tilted toward dealing with the pass, but Capers runs it as his base much of the time. All an opposing OC need do is put 3 wides on the field, and he knows he's going to get a 2-4 with 4 men in the box - easy to run on.

Capers way of dealing with the run was to go to the "jumbo nickel" with Raji and Pickett at DT - it was a fundamentally flawed approach b/c if you're in the nickel to begin with to deal with the pass, now you're putting 2 non-passing rushing fat guys on the line - and still not sound against the run b/c you only have 4 men in the box. And the 4 men we have in the box are not SF quality defenders... there is no Justin Smith, Navarro Bowman, or Patrick Willis clogging up the middle in our 2-4 nickel. Instead we have Brad Jones and AJ Hawk.

Not surprisingly, we routinely get run over out of this alignment.

2. The second major problem with the way Capers runs his 2-4 is personnel.

TT has not invested in LB's, he has invested in DL. Everyone can clamour all they want about Perry being an OLB - he is not an OLB, he is a situational 4-3 DE, and I expect that as soon as his contract is up, he'll be gone to a 4-3 team.

Furthermore, 2 of the LB's that are on the field in the 2-4, Brad Jones and AJ Hawk, are below average NFL starters - and most teams would be looking to replace them - not the Packers though... Capers instead gameplans to ensure that these 2 substandard players are on the field 24/7 - while the talent that TT invested in is standing on the sideline.

To make better use of the personnel TT has brought in, we should be running a 3-3 nickel. It gets the DL on the field, gives us more size and flexibility up front, and gets one of the 2 ILB slugs mercifully sent to the sidelines.

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Our defense has been putrid for 3 years running now - and the defense we run is the 2-4. You guys blame the players, and never see fault with how they are being used.

Like I said, Capers puts a NT out at corner, and you guys never bat an eyelash... the fault is obviously the NT's for not getting the job done.

So what set should we be in with a 3 WR set? If I am playing either a 4-3 or a 3-4 team and they stay in base I am happy to have Cobb against a LB across the middle. Nelson and Adams run go routes. I'll throw 20 times in a row if I know that is the look I am going to get.

As to the personnel issues, I think with Hayward back and Hyde playing safety the Packers are better equipped to play base against a 3 WR set. While not ideal if you can have Shields playing man on the outside, let Hyde cover the third WR, and have Clinton-Dix play center field. You have a lot better chance then what we had last year.

As for a NT dropping out and covering, I remember Raji picking off a pass and scoring a TD in the NFC Championship game to seal the deal.

[bobblehead]

Wist, I am with you mostly, but you don't concede certain points. One is that if a team puts 3 wide on the field they are taking one blocker away from their running game. We should still be able to deal with the run in mid distance situations. My gripe is when we match up on 2nd and goal from the 2. You don't need CB's to cover zones/flats. You need to stay big in these kind of situations to avoid getting run over. 3rd and 7 or more however....we should be able to stop the run in the 2-4. Now, based on what we have seen so far, we can't be sure what will happen in the regular season. I am not necessarily optimistic, but I am not suicidal either.

One of the big problems with our 2-4 was that we had crap opposite Clay. Perry is perfectly capable of playing that role, but he hasn't. He isn't miscast, he simply lacks an attribute. Not sure if its talent, desire, brains, or my guess, health...whatever, but he isn't doing what he is easily strong enough and fast enough to accomplish. Neal did do it, but then Mathews was hurt. Hawk stinks on ice when it comes to taking on a blocker, and Jones isn't much better which exposes the problem even more. Honestly though, in the 2-4, the 2 DL and the OLB have to be stout enough that Jones/Hawk don't have to defeat anyone other than a FB or TE. To date they haven't been, and that's not usually a schematic problem (except in shorter yardage in the red zone).

[pbmax]

I don't think Perry is the issue with run D in the 2-4. His health is an issue, but not specific to run D.

I think wist is right that the middle of the field hasn't been adequately patrolled by Hawk and Jones. However, Bishop was on the field for the worst run D in a generation in 2011, so its not all Jones.

I think Perry's lack of key ingredient is evidenced is his very fitful pass rush. From his normal left side, its all bull rush and nothing else.

[3irty1]

If you were to implement a 3-3 the issue is what to do with Matthews. 1) he's a DE whose rushing the passer off the edge in which case you've still got Jones and Hawk playing Will and Mike. 2) He's a Will or Sam in which case he's taking hook zone and gap assignments. or 3) He's playing a cat linebacker role like Capers did with Jason Taylor in which case the only real difference between the 2-4, 3-3, and even 4-2 formations is the job titles and hand placement of your edge rushers <- all look exactly the same right after the snap.

If you want Jones or Hawk off the field you're talking about #2. The reasoning being that Hawk+Jones are so inadequate that its worth sacrificing the best skill (edge rushing) of your best player to displace one of them. IMO all of this is a terrible plan. Tossing out the beefy version of the 2-4 and using the 3-4 instead in those situations is all the change I really wanted. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[wist43]

If you were to implement a 3-3 the issue is what to do with Matthews. 1) he's a DE whose rushing the passer off the edge in which case you've still got Jones and Hawk playing Will and Mike. 2) He's a Will or Sam in which case he's taking hook zone and gap assignments. or 3) He's playing a cat linebacker role like Capers did with Jason Taylor in which case the only real difference between the 2-4, 3-3, and even 4-2 formations is the job titles and hand placement of your edge rushers <- all look exactly the same right after the snap.

If you want Jones or Hawk off the field you're talking about #2. The reasoning being that Hawk+Jones are so inadequate that its worth sacrificing the best skill (edge rushing) of your best player to displace one of them. IMO all of this is a terrible plan. Tossing out the beefy version of the 2-4 and using the 3-4 instead in those situations is all the change I really wanted. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Good gravy you guys drive me nuts!!!

The first, and I would hope most obvious, difference between a 2-4 and 3-3 is that in the 2-4 you only have 2 defensive linemen on the field with their hand on the ground; while in the 3-3 you have 3.

It makes my head hurt to think you guys cannot wrap your minds around that basic fact.

As for the 3 LBs... do whatever you want with them. Who says Matthews has to rush from the right side, left side, or the middle... or drop in zone coverage, or man up on the RB flaring out of the backfield.

I'd move Matthews all over the place; I'd maximize my defensive line talent by having more of them on the field together; and I'd minimize my ILB weakness by removing one of those slugs from the lineup.

I wouldn't strictly play man behind it... in fact, I'd play a lot more zone than Capers does. You can still play man on the outside, but if you decide to drop a guy like Peppers or Perry - don't man them up on a back or TE, let them play a short zone, and God help any ball carrier or receiver that wanders into their area.

You guys are all defenders of Capers and his 2-4, but you seem incapable of grasping the fact that our defense sucks, and that Capers plays more 2-4 than any other team in the league - by far. You never make the causation connection.

Half the teams in the league don't even run the 2-4 at all - ever!! Only San Francisco (who has a huge talent advantage), Arizona (also a talent advantage), and Green Bay run the 2-4 any appreciable amount of the time. SF and Arizona in the 40% range, and Green Bay 65%.

Green Bay is an the lone 2-4 outlier in the league. If we were getting great results, the rest of the league would copycat, but that isn't happening - b/c we are not getting great results; quite the opposite - our defense sucks.

[vince]

Specialized Passing Defenses are the New Base Defenses Throughout the League

[Rutnstrut]

So imo there are two major problems. 1- Capers refuses to use the talent he has the way they should be, he keeps trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. 2- They are so freaking worried about changing things because Mathews might have to adapt. If a defensive change would benefit the team as a whole and Clay doesn't fit, get rid of him. Some of you used to say the team shouldn't make changes/exceptions for Favre. The same thing goes for any other player, even if it is Mathews.