After 1 preseason game - Pack it in, the season is already over

[hoosier]

Consensus doesn't mean that everyone thought AR would be picked at 24. Consensus means that there was a general agreement. That general agreement could mean that plus or minus x, it could mean with a margin of error of x, it could mean with a x% confidence interval, it could mean the mean, that could mean the mode, that could mean the median, that could mean any number of possible measurements of consensus. My point was that NONE of those had AR at 24.

I think the original point, Max's I think, was that you seem to be conflating two different bodies of knowledge: those of the league's GMs and scouts, and those of the professional and armchair prognosticators. Granted, the consensus in the second group was that ARod was a top-10 pick. Did the teams picking from number 11 to 23 simply pass up a top ten talent in favor of a bigger need? Maybe. Or did they pass him up because their evaluations were different from the pundits? We will never know, and what is more we will never know whether Minnesota (who took Troy Williamson with the 7th pick and Erasmus James with the 18th) ruled out taking Rodgers for the same reason as Oakland, who took Fabian Jackson with #23. It's possible that Minnesota evaluated Rodgers as a D1 but drafted for need while Oakland evaluated Rodgers as second-round talent.

Your Apple/Toyota analogy is flawed. Those are prices that are set by the give-and-take of the market (Toyota lowers its prices when the sales flow diminishes), whereas in draft prognostications there is no feedback mechanism to orient the process, except insofar as armchair pundits are influenced by paid pundits.

[MadtownPacker]

Would you suggest that we all stop posting until at least the bye week?

I would suggest you chill or maybe Zool will give you the attention you seek.

[red]

Bob Sanders, Carl Hairston, Robert Nunn, Kurt Schottenheimer, Lionel Washington. Rock Gullickson, Ty Knott, Mike Stock and Chad Morton would probably disagree!

It was just a couple years ago, before the 2014 off-season firings, that there was an article critical of MM for not showing the loyalty to his staff that most NFL head coaches do. It suggested that he would have a hard time filling openings on his staff because of it. It also suggested that some who had resigned did so under pressure, and we saw more of that this year in addition to the firings.

Oh shut up

[vince]

This type of thread is normally an offseason deal. Glad to see it carrying over into the preseason.

The sky falls on beaten dead horses for boys who cry wolf over spilt milk all year long.

[bobblehead]

There is no agreeable consensus, correct or otherwise on much of anything, yet every day the price of Apple stock, a Toyota Camry and the relative value of a NFL draftee is there. Wikipedia advances the model that the consensus of ideas, provides a superior outcome to any one idea. If you are saying that consensus does not exist, I really don't know how to even respond. If you are saying that consensus requires agreement, then I have a different definition of consensus than you.

The consensus in Las Vegas in June of 2007 was that a 3 BR house with a small garage was worth 500k. I disagreed. I am much better off than the consensus.

[bobblehead]

TT really got lucky in that draft. In the second round the best safety in the draft fell to us as well.

[wist43]

TT really got lucky in that draft. In the second round the best safety in the draft fell to us as well.

The argument back then was 'win now'.

Tomorrow is yesterday man... you never know how a completely unproven anything is going to perform. Favre was on the decline, and we had a good core - the argument to make a run for a title is not a hard one to make.

As it is, Collins was complete garbage his first couple of years, and did nothing to help the team while Favre was still here. Rodgers did nothing to help that team, and Collins did nothing to help that team.

The fact that we would win a SB down the line with those 2 players playing integral roles is a long shot compared to having a title within sight, and saying, 'nah... let's take the long road now'.

2010 is proving to be the proverbial 'fart in the wind'... Collins got hurt shortly thereafter, he could just as easily been hurt before 2010 - and so it goes.

There is merit to both arguments, but I tend to side with taking your shot when you're within reach of a title.

[ThunderDan]

The argument back then was 'win now'.

Tomorrow is yesterday man... you never know how a completely unproven anything is going to perform. Favre was on the decline, and we had a good core - the argument to make a run for a title is not a hard one to make.

As it is, Collins was complete garbage his first couple of years, and did nothing to help the team while Favre was still here. Rodgers did nothing to help that team, and Collins did nothing to help that team.

The fact that we would win a SB down the line with those 2 players playing integral roles is a long shot compared to having a title within sight, and saying, 'nah... let's take the long road now'.

2010 is proving to be the proverbial 'fart in the wind'... Collins got hurt shortly thereafter, he could just as easily been hurt before 2010 - and so it goes.

There is merit to both arguments, but I tend to side with taking your shot when you're within reach of a title.

Sorry but in 2004 here are BF's numbers:

64.1% Completion %, 4,088 yards, 30TDs, 17 INTs, 92.4 QB Rating
Statistically one of his best season.

GB went 10-6 that year after starting 1-4. We lost at home in the playoffs to the Vikings.

[Patler]

The argument back then was 'win now'.

Tomorrow is yesterday man... you never know how a completely unproven anything is going to perform. Favre was on the decline, and we had a good core - the argument to make a run for a title is not a hard one to make.

As it is, Collins was complete garbage his first couple of years, and did nothing to help the team while Favre was still here. Rodgers did nothing to help that team, and Collins did nothing to help that team.

The fact that we would win a SB down the line with those 2 players playing integral roles is a long shot compared to having a title within sight, and saying, 'nah... let's take the long road now'.

2010 is proving to be the proverbial 'fart in the wind'... Collins got hurt shortly thereafter, he could just as easily been hurt before 2010 - and so it goes.

There is merit to both arguments, but I tend to side with taking your shot when you're within reach of a title.

Not sure what your point is about Collins. Safety was a huge need with the departure of the accused. Collins came in and started from day 1. He wasn't a completed product, couldn't catch to save his life, but tackled willingly and mostly well and had the speed that covered up a lot of his mistakes and those of others. Collins seemed to be a pick for need that fits a "win now" approach. Certainly he was a better player in 2010 than he was in 2005, aren't most rookies better in their 4th or 5th years than in their 1st? Could TT have drafted someone that would fill a bigger need than start every game he played?

[wist43]

Not sure what your point is about Collins. Safety was a huge need with the departure of the accused. Collins came in and started from day 1. He wasn't a completed product, couldn't catch to save his life, but tackled willingly and mostly well and had the speed that covered up a lot of his mistakes and those of others. Collins seemed to be a pick for need that fits a "win now" approach. Certainly he was a better player in 2010 than he was in 2005, aren't most rookies better in their 4th or 5th years than in their 1st? Could TT have drafted someone that would fill a bigger need than start every game he played?

The point is - it's all well and good to draft and develop, but when you're on the doorstep of a title, you don't throw a rookie into the deep end and hope he can swim... you sign a stop-gap vet to hopefully get you where you need to go, and in a perfect world you win a title with the vet, get rid of him when the rookie is ready, and hopefully win some more.

TT's shortcoming is the fact that he doesn't believe in filling holes for today - it's all about tomorrow... always tomorrow. Signing Peppers was wildly out of character - and signing Peppers upgrades our personnel to the point of making us contenders.

If he doesn't sign Pickett and Woodson - even with the enormous luck we had in '10 - we don't win that title, and without signing Peppers this year, I'd say we'd have no chance this year.

TT should have signed a veteran Safety back then, just like he signed Peppers this year. Our cap situation was stickier, but the cap is always an obstacle.

[bobblehead]

The argument back then was 'win now'.

Tomorrow is yesterday man... you never know how a completely unproven anything is going to perform. Favre was on the decline, and we had a good core - the argument to make a run for a title is not a hard one to make.

As it is, Collins was complete garbage his first couple of years, and did nothing to help the team while Favre was still here. Rodgers did nothing to help that team, and Collins did nothing to help that team.

The fact that we would win a SB down the line with those 2 players playing integral roles is a long shot compared to having a title within sight, and saying, 'nah... let's take the long road now'.

2010 is proving to be the proverbial 'fart in the wind'... Collins got hurt shortly thereafter, he could just as easily been hurt before 2010 - and so it goes.

There is merit to both arguments, but I tend to side with taking your shot when you're within reach of a title.

Still using the "its all luck when you get it right, you suck when injuries cost you your team" argument eh?

[bobblehead]

The point is - it's all well and good to draft and develop, but when you're on the doorstep of a title, you don't throw a rookie into the deep end and hope he can swim... you sign a stop-gap vet to hopefully get you where you need to go, and in a perfect world you win a title with the vet, get rid of him when the rookie is ready, and hopefully win some more.

TT's shortcoming is the fact that he doesn't believe in filling holes for today - it's all about tomorrow... always tomorrow. Signing Peppers was wildly out of character - and signing Peppers upgrades our personnel to the point of making us contenders.

If he doesn't sign Pickett and Woodson - even with the enormous luck we had in '10 - we don't win that title, and without signing Peppers this year, I'd say we'd have no chance this year.

TT should have signed a veteran Safety back then, just like he signed Peppers this year. Our cap situation was stickier, but the cap is always an obstacle.

But that very vet threw a game ending pick (effectively) on the doorstep to the superbowl. Its not like we sucked balls because of the team we put around him. It was the furthest a BF led team had gone since we lost in the SB. By the argument of results matter, TT fielded a better team around the old man than anyone had in a decade....or was it just luck?

[pbmax]

I would like to point out that while Collins didn't become COLLINS™ until 2009/10, he wasn't a basket case for the previous three years. He could tackle and cover. He did not seem to have hands with flexible fingers for catching though.

[Pugger]

My wife thanks all of you. 3 series of vanilla first string D and we already know the season is a failure. I guess I won't spend my Sundays watching football.

No shit. I suppose we should forfeit the season so we can get the #1 pick seeing the season is now toast.

/thread

[Patler]

The point is - it's all well and good to draft and develop, but when you're on the doorstep of a title, you don't throw a rookie into the deep end and hope he can swim... you sign a stop-gap vet to hopefully get you where you need to go, and in a perfect world you win a title with the vet, get rid of him when the rookie is ready, and hopefully win some more.

TT's shortcoming is the fact that he doesn't believe in filling holes for today - it's all about tomorrow... always tomorrow. Signing Peppers was wildly out of character - and signing Peppers upgrades our personnel to the point of making us contenders.

Someone like Earl Little, an 8 year vet who had 52 starts the 3 previous seasons? or Arturo Freeman, a five year vet with 29 starts? Maybe Matt O'Dwyer who had 105 NFL starts? or Adrian Klemm, a five year vet that NE used as their 6th O-lineman and tried to keep from leaving? All signed the year he drafted Collins.