OLD ISSUE: REBUILDING?

[TOP HAT]

Ultimately, the debates on the forums come down to a major concern:


As Packnut said about TT's press conference in another topic, "The big problem I fear is the # of fans who just take for granted that he should have a few years to prove himself. They accept losing and being embarrassed like Monday night. For them it's natural to have "re-building years". I have seen enough to know that TT is a clown who does'nt have a clue. This guy lives in a fantasy world where O lineman are a dime a dozen. I also agree that the Sherman excuse is over. This is TT's team and he's had ample time."


My postscript: I can remember when pro football forecasters used to call the Pack rebuilding a joke before BF's era and getting new management era.


This is the ultimate concern looking down the road for 2-5 years. I am not sure that the fans can wait 2-3 years for a playoff contending team. Further, I would like BF to go out with a winning season or two.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I admit that I am starting to get very fustrated with TT. I thought he was doing good, but the woodson signing and the two years of not replacing at least one of our guards has me worried. Am just trying to be patient and at least give him this year, but if I don't see good things from his rookie class of this year and his second year players, than I will think that this guy needs to go.

[Tony Oday]

I like what we are doing we are creating another 'window' you know like the one we missed when 4th and inches was a punt...

[MJZiggy]

I admit that I am starting to get very fustrated with TT. I thought he was doing good, but the woodson signing and the two years of not replacing at least one of our guards has me worried. Am just trying to be patient and at least give him this year, but if I don't see good things from his rookie class of this year and his second year players, than I will think that this guy needs to go.

As I recall, when the Woodson signing happened, everyone loved the idea and was overjoyed. No it's a mistake? How come it wasn't a mistake when it happened? I'm still saying let's see what happens during the real season before we start vigilante activities.

[Packnut]

Re-Building

Having lived through the 70's and 80's, I'm sure my opinion differ's from the younger guys here who have no idea about the ineptitude that went on back then. For some of them, may-be re-building is a natural course of events and they would view my opinions as "over-reacting".

My arguement centers on recognizing the mistakes when they are made and they stem from the top. Let's all be honest here. If Harlan had not made the 1 right move in hiring Wolf, his tenure would have been a complete and utter disaster.

I firmly believe in the saying that those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it and Harlan is a perfect example. First we lose a damn fine coach in Holmgren because he wanted more power. Then Harlan gives a guy who had NOTHING in his track record all the power that eventually proves to be a fatal mistake.

Which brings us to where we stand today. I don't believe there was any history in which TT was warranted getting picked as our GM. Harlan has a fatal flaw and that is accepting other's opinion's that he bases his decision's on. While Wolf was a tremendous evaluator of player talent, other than Holmgren, his coaching and GM evaluations suck. If my memory is right, Harlan had input from Wolf on Rhodes, Sherman and Thompson.

Some here have credited TT with the drafts in Seattle and their success and I believe it is un-warranted. A large part of it was their QB maturation process which is all on Holmgren. Plus, we have no idea how much input Holmgren had on TT's picks.

Now we havea HC who had NOTHING in his background that warranted his being picked by TT other than the fact that it's easier for a GM to have total control when he has a rookie HC with no experience. We are on very dangerous ground here because this simple 2-3 yr re-building program can backfire into 5-6 yrs.

My question is are we all going to be here at some future point saying the new GM is gonna have to recover from what TT did like we have made that excuse for TT in regards to Sherman?

[Astonishment]

Another key is that offensive lines take a while to gel. I would take a line of average players that have played together of a few years over an all-star line that has not played together. I agree with Thomson on the importance of top talent at the guard spots. It is not that guards are a dime-a-dozen; however it is true you can't allocate that much cap space to guards because of how much the skill position players command. TT's offensive line moves look bad right now (last years moves were and will remain terrible), but the true judge of how good they are will be how they look in two years. I am not saying you have to give TT a two year pass because the team should be able to see improvement over this next year. It is much like planting a tree you don't see the results immediately, but the roots are establishing themselves long before you see the tree start to grow. The development for an offensive line is much the same way. That is why yearly offensive line suddenly "become good" after years of being below average with no significant talent upgrade.

"Mike Wahle is terrible", "more like Mike turn-style Wahle", "why are they starting Flanigan - he sucks we need Winters back"(these are both after he switched to guard), "that’s what you get when you start two rookie tackles, they'll never be any good", "Rivera will never amount to anything, he's injury prone and always will be" - I have heard all these comments only to see people suddenly change their tune to "we can't afford to lose Wahl - give him 10 million a year", "Rivera is the best guard in football", "there isn't a better tackle tandem than Tauscher and Clifton", "man are we screwed when Flanigan retires".

All of these are premature over-reactions, and so is what is going on right now. This new line will go through the same growing pains that the past lines have, and will probably develop into a good unit if they get the time to.

[MJZiggy]

Packnut, I doubt it. Even if TT turned out to be the anti-GM, there isn't anything any of us could do about it anyway (at least not without risking life imprisonment). He is the GM, it is his ship to run, and, actually, I'm rather happy with how he's running it. Let me ask you this: if Wolf is the one bright spot in Harlan's tenure and he's a great talent evaluator, then what leads you to believe that Wolf's faith in TT's talent is misplaced? This is not the 80's (thank God) and the league doesn't run the same way as it did then.

[mngolf19]

I will say that I am shocked at the seeming lack of effort to send Favre off with a winner. I am a fan of Brett and it just seems wrong for him to go out on such a bad note.

[Packnut]

TT

Another key is that offensive lines take a while to gel. I would take a line of average players that have played together of a few years over an all-star line that has not played together. I agree with Thomson on the importance of top talent at the guard spots. It is not that guards are a dime-a-dozen; however it is true you can't allocate that much cap space to guards because of how much the skill position players command. TT's offensive line moves look bad right now (last years moves were and will remain terrible), but the true judge of how good they are will be how they look in two years. I am not saying you have to give TT a two year pass because the team should be able to see improvement over this next year. It is much like planting a tree you don't see the results immediately, but the roots are establishing themselves long before you see the tree start to grow. The development for an offensive line is much the same way. That is why yearly offensive line suddenly "become good" after years of being below average with no significant talent upgrade.

"Mike Wahle is terrible", "more like Mike turn-style Wahle", "why are they starting Flanigan - he sucks we need Winters back"(these are both after he switched to guard), "that’s what you get when you start two rookie tackles, they'll never be any good", "Rivera will never amount to anything, he's injury prone and always will be" - I have heard all these comments only to see people suddenly change their tune to "we can't afford to lose Wahl - give him 10 million a year", "Rivera is the best guard in football", "there isn't a better tackle tandem than Tauscher and Clifton", "man are we screwed when Flanigan retires".

All of these are premature over-reactions, and so is what is going on right now. This new line will go through the same growing pains that the past lines have, and will probably develop into a good unit if they get the time to.

Your point is well-taken about O line needing time. My problem with it is an O line with 2 rookies is gonna take even more time and my arguement is we should'nt have been in this position to begin with. Also what has TT done with the O line that warrants ANY hope for the future? His answer last season for the O line was HORRIBLE. Correct me if I'm wrong, but his #2 pick of the draft this season is'nt good enough to beat out Moll?

[BallHawk]

Even if TT turned out to be the anti-GM, there isn't anything any of us could do about it anyway (at least not without risking life imprisonment).

Some things just have to be done.

[Packnut]

TT

Packnut, I doubt it. Even if TT turned out to be the anti-GM, there isn't anything any of us could do about it anyway (at least not without risking life imprisonment). He is the GM, it is his ship to run, and, actually, I'm rather happy with how he's running it. Let me ask you this: if Wolf is the one bright spot in Harlan's tenure and he's a great talent evaluator, then what leads you to believe that Wolf's faith in TT's talent is misplaced? This is not the 80's (thank God) and the league doesn't run the same way as it did then.

The fact that he was so wrong about the O line last season and the way things are now is very disturbing. I mean he did'nt even make 50-50 last season. He was wrong about both guys. Now his #2 pick can't beat out Moll?

He gives an average DE a huge contract but does'nt even make an attempt at a skill position with Walker? Kampman might not even be out there on 3rd downs so we have 1 DE who can't generate a pass rush and another who can't stop the run. It's to helter-skelter with TT. There are just way to manny red flags. As far as what we can do about it. Don't under-estimate the will of the fans. GB is a small town and the Packer brass will hear the anger.

[Astonishment]

Re: TT

Another key is that offensive lines take a while to gel. I would take a line of average players that have played together of a few years over an all-star line that has not played together. I agree with Thomson on the importance of top talent at the guard spots. It is not that guards are a dime-a-dozen; however it is true you can't allocate that much cap space to guards because of how much the skill position players command. TT's offensive line moves look bad right now (last years moves were and will remain terrible), but the true judge of how good they are will be how they look in two years. I am not saying you have to give TT a two year pass because the team should be able to see improvement over this next year. It is much like planting a tree you don't see the results immediately, but the roots are establishing themselves long before you see the tree start to grow. The development for an offensive line is much the same way. That is why yearly offensive line suddenly "become good" after years of being below average with no significant talent upgrade.

"Mike Wahle is terrible", "more like Mike turn-style Wahle", "why are they starting Flanigan - he sucks we need Winters back"(these are both after he switched to guard), "that’s what you get when you start two rookie tackles, they'll never be any good", "Rivera will never amount to anything, he's injury prone and always will be" - I have heard all these comments only to see people suddenly change their tune to "we can't afford to lose Wahl - give him 10 million a year", "Rivera is the best guard in football", "there isn't a better tackle tandem than Tauscher and Clifton", "man are we screwed when Flanigan retires".

All of these are premature over-reactions, and so is what is going on right now. This new line will go through the same growing pains that the past lines have, and will probably develop into a good unit if they get the time to.

Your point is well-taken about O line needing time. My problem with it is an O line with 2 rookies is gonna take even more time and my arguement is we should'nt have been in this position to begin with. Also what has TT done with the O line that warrants ANY hope for the future? His answer last season for the O line was HORRIBLE. Correct me if I'm wrong, but his #2 pick of the draft this season is'nt good enough to beat out Moll?

1) I agree that we shouldn't be in this position, but I wouldn't put that on TT's shoulders. When he took over the cabinet was completely bare behind Wahl and Rivera. As for letting those two go, when TT took over Wahle was already determined to test FA (he has since tried to semi refute that, but it would have still broke the bank long term to keep him), and once he hit FA it would have been ridiculous to match what he got. However I was firmly in favor of not letting Rivera get to FA, because I believe he would have re-signed for much less. In hind sight that would have been a poor choice, because Rivera's age has shown since he left and he is only a shell of what he was when he was here.

2) I completely agree that TT's moves last season were terrible, but considering the cap situation, they were the right kind of low risk moves needed, just the wrong players.

3) As for Moll beating out College, I think everyone is disappointed, but it is much better to make a correction as soon as it is noticed, than to stick a guy in just because he was picked sooner (See Carroll over Thomas - while neither was very good Thomas was consistently better in practice, but Carroll started because of draft position).

[Packnut]

TT

I apologize for being so negative, but this whole situation has me really bummed out right now, and if you've watched any sports shows you'll know Monday night made us a joke in the NFL. The radio guys here in Chicago have ripped the Pack due to Mon night. I know we don't have the talent for a super bowl but at least field a competitive team.

[retailguy]

Let me ask you this: if Wolf is the one bright spot in Harlan's tenure and he's a great talent evaluator, then what leads you to believe that Wolf's faith in TT's talent is misplaced? This is not the 80's (thank God) and the league doesn't run the same way as it did then.

Zig,

I'm not packnut, however, I'm going to "give it the old school try"... First off, I rather enjoyed the 80's, with the exception of Packer football, so lay off on us "old guys".

Second, Wolf had nothing but praise for Mike Sherman too, and to a lot of people here (I am not one of them), they think Sherman is the Anti-Christ.

I, like pacnut, don't want to return to the 80's with regard to football, however, I do think it is inevitable but to rebuild once in a while. We had a 14 year run. That's a LONG time. Credit goes to Holmgren, Wolf, AND Sherman. Not many teams can stay viable that long.

I have not given up on TT at this point, it is way too early, however, he hasn't quite got the focus on the OL & DL that Mike Sherman had. Sherman always had good lines, because it was all he really cared about. His success on the DL was not what it was on the OL, but you can't say he didn't try.

TT seems in NO HURRY to build anything. While the long term focus is a very good thing, typically, it is sad to see Favre "ushered" out of the spotlight. There is no focus to "build quickly". I guess some fans could find that frustrating.

I do think, however, TT has been a bit disingenuous with the "we're not rebuilding" comments. It hasn't won him any accolades with me, that's for sure.

[Packnut]

TT

Astonishment- see this is where I have a problem with TT's priorities and his understanding of football. I will admit that the Wahle thing sticks in my gut. He was'nt a priority and there was no money for him but there was for Kampman? At this point, who would have had more value to the team?

The cap space could have been worked out with Wahle contrary to what anyone says. This guy was one of the top 3 at his position and TT got NOTHING for him. I dis-agree that he was'nt worth the money. Why did Green have the best short yardage stats a few yrs back? Because running behind Mike was MONEY! Wahle was worth every penny he got, just ask the Panthers RB's.

TT should have backloaded a contract with guarenteed money. The signing bonus could have been structured to fit the cap space by offering him more in the 2nd year. We do have 8 mill sitting here don't we?