More Banjo: Week 16 @ NYJets

[pbmax]

Can we make a list of things that pointed to the Packers beginning a soft rebuild (which is what I think this has been)?

1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves


...please add your own

[red]

Starting safety and former first round pick trades in middle of season for 4th round pick

At this point we had given up on this year and started preparing for future years

[pbmax]

Starting safety and former first round pick trades in middle of season for 4th round pick

At this point we had given up on this year and started preparing for future years

I agree, but that was during the season after it was apparent there was going to be problems. Maybe we need two lists.

Offseason Tank Job
1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves

In Season Tank Job
1. Trade Clinton-Dix mid-season for a 4th round pick

[Fritz]

I think whomever it was who said Murphy played this whole thing down the middle was correct.

I'm speculating, of course, but I think that on the one hand, Murphy saw the problems we all saw with MM's teams - the increasingly porous defense under Capers, the consistently poor special teams, MM's inability to get the offense running smoothly for long stretches. On the other hand, he also had MM bitching in his ear about the lack of talent (the 2015 draft was Ted's undoing, I think), and MM also had his past successes, as well as (I think) a 4 - 1 record when Rodgers went down due to Barr's late hit last year. So Murphy was reluctant to simply clean house -firing a guy who was (again, I think) 4 - 1 before the star quarterback got hurt would be a bold and controversial move. Thus, getting rid of Ted and extending MM for one year was a kind of compromise. It's a compromise that set this team back a year, at least, and it also was a compromise solution that apparently resulted from Murphy not seeing or not choosing to see that MM had not developed Brett Hundley very well.

In hindsight it's easy to criticize, but if you look at the Lions, they had Jim Caldwell, who'd gotten them a couple 9-7 records in a row, but could not get past the first game of the playoffs. So they ditched him, the GM proclaiming that Caldwell had more talent than the record indicated, and now the Lions are 5-10 and swirling back down the toilet.

Which, by the way, is also a reason that it was good that the Packers won against the Jets. Saw an article two days ago about how the Lions' last miserable loss (to the Vikings, this time, and featuring another end-of-half hail mary success by the opposing team) has resulted in much gloom and dissatisfaction within the locker room - our old buddy Ricky Jean Francois was spouting off about changing the culture, etc, etc, and there are mutterings that they'd love to get rid of Stafford and start over (again).

So there are risks in cutting ties with a Super Bowl-winning coach who'd had his team 4 - 1 before the star QB got injured. Therefore, you play it down the middle - fire the GM, extend the coach for one year, see what happens.

And once Murphy saw what happened - those old problems cropping up again with an inconsistent offense and lousy special teams - he cut bait. Simply firing Capers was not enough to save MM's job.

It was a mistake to go down that road, but it's understandable.

[Patler]

I agree, but that was during the season after it was apparent there was going to be problems. Maybe we need two lists.

Offseason Tank Job
1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves

In Season Tank Job
1. Trade Clinton-Dix mid-season for a 4th round pick

Off Season - trading the most effective CB from 2017, the leader in interceptions and a former first round draft pick still on his rookie contract, who was actually playing decently at the end of 2017, for a backup QB who was not just unproven, but had played enough to show that he needed a total reboot before he would be an effective contributor even as a backup. Teams with playoff aspirations find ways to deal with personalities like Randall unless they have an abundance of talent at his position and/or can trade him for a player who will be a significant contributor even at a different position. Rodgers' age and injury history related to his playing style necessitated finding a true backup QB who could hold the fort somewhat when Rodgers went down. While they might legitimately like Kizers potential, I think they knew he would be no better in 2018 than Hundley was in 2017.

Clearly a move looking to the future at the detriment of the present.


In Season - The quick and prolific use of IR since early November. I suspect some of these players could have been contributors later in the season. Instead, GB used it as an opportunity to evaluate backups and many players from the practice squad in real game situations. It also allows them to stockpile contracted players for next year. The only player who has been nursed along is Bulaga, and that was done to safeguard Rodgers as much as possible.

[mraynrand]

In Season - The quick and prolific use of IR since early November. I suspect some of these players could have been contributors later in the season. Instead, GB used it as an opportunity to evaluate backups and many players from the practice squad in real game situations. It also allows them to stockpile contracted players for next year. The only player who has been nursed along is Bulaga, and that was done to safeguard Rodgers as much as possible.

yep. But one thing I always forget about are player bonuses. I really have little interest looking this up, but perhaps some of the moves to continue competitive play and not rest players have to do with statistical levels needed for bonuses. With respect to quick IR for some players, do most compensation packages adjust for IR which is an organizational decision which a player can't really dispute? (a player conceivably could cause trouble if a quick hook cost him $$)....

[beveaux1]

I think whomever it was who said Murphy played this whole thing down the middle was correct.

I'm speculating, of course, but I think that on the one hand, Murphy saw the problems we all saw with MM's teams - the increasingly porous defense under Capers, the consistently poor special teams, MM's inability to get the offense running smoothly for long stretches. On the other hand, he also had MM bitching in his ear about the lack of talent (the 2015 draft was Ted's undoing, I think), and MM also had his past successes, as well as (I think) a 4 - 1 record when Rodgers went down due to Barr's late hit last year. So Murphy was reluctant to simply clean house -firing a guy who was (again, I think) 4 - 1 before the star quarterback got hurt would be a bold and controversial move. Thus, getting rid of Ted and extending MM for one year was a kind of compromise. It's a compromise that set this team back a year, at least, and it also was a compromise solution that apparently resulted from Murphy not seeing or not choosing to see that MM had not developed Brett Hundley very well.

In hindsight it's easy to criticize, but if you look at the Lions, they had Jim Caldwell, who'd gotten them a couple 9-7 records in a row, but could not get past the first game of the playoffs. So they ditched him, the GM proclaiming that Caldwell had more talent than the record indicated, and now the Lions are 5-10 and swirling back down the toilet.

Which, by the way, is also a reason that it was good that the Packers won against the Jets. Saw an article two days ago about how the Lions' last miserable loss (to the Vikings, this time, and featuring another end-of-half hail mary success by the opposing team) has resulted in much gloom and dissatisfaction within the locker room - our old buddy Ricky Jean Francois was spouting off about changing the culture, etc, etc, and there are mutterings that they'd love to get rid of Stafford and start over (again).

So there are risks in cutting ties with a Super Bowl-winning coach who'd had his team 4 - 1 before the star QB got injured. Therefore, you play it down the middle - fire the GM, extend the coach for one year, see what happens.

And once Murphy saw what happened - those old problems cropping up again with an inconsistent offense and lousy special teams - he cut bait. Simply firing Capers was not enough to save MM's job.

It was a mistake to go down that road, but it's understandable.

I was of the impression that TT and MM were both given 1 year extensions at the same time, before the end of last season. At the end of last season, TT was relieved of his position, if rumors are true, because of a medical condition. After Gute was hired, again after lobbying against Ball by MM, MM was placed directly under Murphy, which most felt was a protection for MM since most GMs want to hire their own coach.

I think the less than stellar performance of the team, the loud grumblings by the fan base, and the implied criticism of the coach by Rodgers caused the mid-season firing. I don't think MM was marked for dismissal at the beginning of the year, but I think he needed to make the playoffs and keep his QB happy to keep his job mainly because of the poor showing by Hundley, who had been groomed by MM as his back-up QB choice.

Everybody looks at the dismissal of TT as the beginnings of a rebuild of the Packers and that MM should have been swept out, also. I don't think there was ever a planned rebuild. I think circumstance took out TT, and I think team performance (and Rodgers, maybe) took out MM and none of it was part of some plan that Murphy had at the beginning of last season. That's giving way too much credit to some forward-thinking vision when it's probably just seat of the pants management.

[yetisnowman]

Would you agree, that sort of thing requires a large amount of LUCK?

My contention, of course, is that we are right there with what we already have - not even with an additional superstar. Aaron Rodgers + crap = a strong team; Aaron Rodgers + mediocrity = excellence. Aaron Rodgers with a good supporting cast would be damn near unbeatable.

Your argument makes no sense. According to you we have the necessary pieces to be contenders and don't need much help, yet you say that Rodgers plus garbage= a strong team. So why are the Packers 6-8-1? That certainly isn't the record of a strong team. So you're simultaneously saying the supporting cast is worse than crap, but that they don't need a lot of help.

[pbmax]

Off Season - trading the most effective CB from 2017, the leader in interceptions and a former first round draft pick still on his rookie contract, who was actually playing decently at the end of 2017, for a backup QB who was not just unproven, but had played enough to show that he needed a total reboot before he would be an effective contributor even as a backup. Teams with playoff aspirations find ways to deal with personalities like Randall unless they have an abundance of talent at his position and/or can trade him for a player who will be a significant contributor even at a different position. Rodgers' age and injury history related to his playing style necessitated finding a true backup QB who could hold the fort somewhat when Rodgers went down. While they might legitimately like Kizers potential, I think they knew he would be no better in 2018 than Hundley was in 2017.

Clearly a move looking to the future at the detriment of the present.


In Season - The quick and prolific use of IR since early November. I suspect some of these players could have been contributors later in the season. Instead, GB used it as an opportunity to evaluate backups and many players from the practice squad in real game situations. It also allows them to stockpile contracted players for next year. The only player who has been nursed along is Bulaga, and that was done to safeguard Rodgers as much as possible.

Offseason Tank Job
1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves
2. Randall traded for Kizer


In Season Tank Job
1. Trade Clinton-Dix mid-season for a 4th round pick
2. Liberal use of IT for injuries (esp. November forward) that players otherwise may have tried to play or be back for late season/playoffs

(let's post some names on this one)

What about trading down in first round for a #1 pick next year? Tank move or value pick?

[mraynrand]

I was of the impression that TT and MM were both given 1 year extensions at the same time, before the end of last season.

I'm not sure this is definitive, but looks like TT was signed through 2018 a few years earlier

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/p...269278371.html

[texaspackerbacker]

Mediocre QBs that win Super Bowls do so because they have historically great defenses.

duh

My point was, that is a whole other topic from the idea of a great QB going to/winning SBs with mediocre talent otherwise. Both of those scenarios happen, just not often.

Sorry hahahahaha - I hear it from my wife all the time, "don't 'duh' me"

[mraynrand]

duh

My point was, that is a whole other topic from the idea of a great QB going to/winning SBs with mediocre talent otherwise. Both of those scenarios happen, just not often.

Sorry hahahahaha - I hear it from my wife all the time, "don't 'duh' me"

Name your top QBs winning the SB with mediocre talent

[beveaux1]

I'm not sure this is definitive, but looks like TT was signed through 2018 a few years earlier

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/p...269278371.html

This is what I remember. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...tension-season

Looks like both of them got an extension through 2019 after the 2016 season.

[gbgary]

was i seeing things or did i read somewhere that the 35 first downs the Packers got vs the jets some some sort of record...or the most in a veeeery long time?

[mraynrand]

This is what I remember. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...tension-season

Looks like both of them got an extension through 2019 after the 2016 season.

OK, that makes sense