Vick goes to court today....

[Harlan Huckleby]

The guilty plea means little regarding the charges he plead guilty to. It's possible he had ZERO to do with abusing animals, or no direct involvment with the operations of dog fighting, yet it still made sense to plead guilty.

He plead guilty because of the threat of racketeering charges. If he was just involved with the money end, he would still be subject to a draconian prison sentence.


I'm not defending Vick. Maybe there is massive evidence that he abused dogs. I am just disturbed by the process. I wish Vick had his day in court.

[Harlan Huckleby]

What I do dispute and characterize as an urban legend is your assertion that it was used to confiscate yachts "when they found a joint onboard". Those simply did not stick.

To confiscate vehicles (including boats) or "ill gotten gains" such as jewelry, etc. the amount of contraband had to meet the levels required to qualify as sufficient to infer intent to sell. A joint or a small amount that one would have for their own personal use was not enough.

Patler, what you are saying is in direct contradiction of the 1988 article I quoted from the NY Times. Do you know who runs the NY Times? Jews. You think you know more about the law than Jews? I think not.

Well, I don't know. I certainly remember reading stories about yacht confiscations. Perhaps those confiscations were ultimately overturned.

[GrnBay007]

I wish Vick had his day in court.

Vick didn't want his day in court. He didn't want all that nasty garbage coming out in complete detail by the witnesses.

Next we will see Part II. Vick will try to appeal to the public by saying how wrong he was and how sorry he is.

....and there will be some that will believe it.

[Rastak]

The guilty plea means little regarding the charges he plead guilty to. It's possible he had ZERO to do with abusing animals, or no direct involvment with the operations of dog fighting, yet it still made sense to plead guilty.

He plead guilty because of the threat of racketeering charges. If he was just involved with the money end, he would still be subject to a draconian prison sentence.


I'm not defending Vick. Maybe there is massive evidence that he abused dogs. I am just disturbed by the process. I wish Vick had his day in court.

His day in court is next Monday. Why do wish so hard in your heart of hearts that he wouldn't plead guilty. Dude, he did it. His pals who were there signed statements saying he hung a few dogs and when a couple wouldn't die he drowned them. One he eletrocuted with a car battery.

They were there and you weren't but I'm to believe your doubt rather than their stated fact, under oath no less?


You're losing me again.

[Rastak]

Mike Lupica


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If he's not familiar with reality, it's time to bone up





Michael Vick takes a fall now he never thought he would take, not for five minutes at the start of this. Michael Vick now finds out that this is how it works in the real world, the world of accountability for the kind of no-account people who thought they could run a sick dogfighting ring known as the Bad Newz Kennels and get away with it. This really is how it works in the real world, even for a big sports star, not the Barry Bonds world, where friends go to jail for you instead of rolling on you the way Vick's friends rolled on him.

Michael Vick, No.7 of the Falcons, is the one who thought he would roll here, the way he could roll out of the pocket and make the biggest and most famous football stadiums in this country come to a stop. The way he could make tacklers stop, and miss, as he ran past them. Vick wasn't a huge winner yet in the National Football League, and maybe never would have been. But you don't have to win anymore in sports to be the kind of star Vick had become, in a very short time.

From the time Vick was a teenager, from the time he first started making tacklers miss with his dazzling speed and talent and almost a jazz man's gift of improvisation, he had existed in the world of stars and celebrity, where the rules are supposed to be different.

Please remember what he said through his lawyers, because he was lawyered up good by then, on courthouse steps not so long ago:

"Today I pleaded innocent to allegations made against me ... I look forward to clearing my good name. I respectfully ask all of you to hold your judgment until all the facts are shown. Above all, I'd like to say to my mom I'm sorry for what she's gone through in this most trying of times. It has caused pain to my family and I apologize to my family. I also want to apologize to my teammates for not being with them at the beginning of spring training."

So he said he was sorry to his mom and he probably said the same to the commissioner of his league, Roger Goodell, and told him that he knew nothing of this dogfighting house that he was accused of funding, on a day when he absolutely should have told Goodell the truth. Michael Vick didn't come out and say that he was innocent at the courthouse that day, he said he had pleaded innocent. That is lawyer talk. Judges hear a lot of it, before trials and after trials and sometimes for trials that never happen, from people a lot less rich and famous than Vick, but with the same exact thing to lose, which means their freedom.

There will be all this speculation about what kind of football future Vick has now that he has pleaded guilty to these federal dogfighting charges, involving conspiracy and interstate commerce and all the rest of it, charges that can get you five years in prison but will probably get Vick just one. There will be all this speculation about what kind of player he might be after doing time. But for as long as he is in jail, Vick ought to think about what kind of person he wants to be when he gets out, whether he finds another team that wants him or not. He ought to wonder what kind of person got involved in something as terrible as dogfighting, however much he was involved, ask himself what kind of athlete thinks that is some kind of acceptable sport.

He sure ought to think about what kind of friends he had or thought he had, ones to whom he always said he had to be so loyal. This case isn't about race, even though there are people who want it to be. It is about values and judgment and skewed definitions of friendship, and accountability. If it isn't some kind of alarm sounding throughout sports, where a lot of guys, white and black and Hispanic, aren't taking a closer look at all those around them, it ought to be.

You can talk about the irony of the public, a public that loves the violence of pro football, finding a different kind of violence shameful and unacceptable. You know there are athletes who have committed other crimes, been behind the wheels of cars when people died, been accused of rape, and never have seen the inside of a jail cell the way Vick will. And yet what Vick and Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace and Tony Taylor are accused of, will plead guilty to - including the execution of "underperforming" dogs - is the behavior of bums. Sometimes you still go to jail for that.

Sometimes this is how it happens when you break the law and then think telling the truth about it is some sort of last resort.

In the end, Vick ended up with friends like Phillips, Peace, Taylor. When the law came after Bonds for steroids, he had Greg Anderson, personal trainer, running interference for him. Greg Anderson: Who seems willing to sit forever rather than roll on baseball's all-time home run king, perhaps say that Bonds knew exactly what performance-enhancing drugs he was taking, and thus perjured himself in front of a grand jury when he said he did not.

Nobody is suggesting that what Bonds did is close to what Vick did. Nobody is comparing steroids to torturing animals. But there are laws about steroids the way there are about dogfighting. And laws about telling the truth. Bonds has a right, even as the grand jury still comes after him, to think that he exists above some laws. Michael Vick no longer does.

[Rastak]

Now here is a solid take.....

Kevin Hench
FOXSports.com


Like so many of Michael Vick's third-down conversion attempts, his legal defense against dogfighting charges ended Monday with a punt.

By the time all his so-called friends were done flipping, it was 4th-and-38. Even the elusive Vick had to realize there was no scrambling out of this one. (The prosecution doesn't view him as a flight risk because he has no friends left to drive the white Bronco.)
The fact that Vick's friends flipped so readily has led some of his defenders to decry the lack of loyalty in the Vick posse. Hey, here's a heads up: if your friends enjoy watching dogs tear each other apart, they might not turn out to be the highest character guys when you need them to have your back.

And those, like Donovan McNabb and Emmitt Smith, who were quick to condemn Vick's associates should bear in mind that Vick certainly seemed prepared to throw his entire posse under the bus to "clear his good name." But plea deals don't go from the top down. A drug kingpin can't get a lesser sentence by rolling on his street peddlers. Vick financed the operation. He was the big fish.

While the guilty plea will cost Vick his freedom for a to-be-determined length of time, it has liberated those of us writing about the case from the annoying and clunky and increasingly insulting use of "allegedly."

And thus concludes this chapter of the long, sad saga of a bad guy who was worse than we thought.

When Vick settled a civil lawsuit brought by a woman who said he'd knowingly given her herpes (and that he'd entered clinics for treatment under the alias Ron Mexico), it spawned a lot of jokes and a jersey-purchasing frenzy.

When Vick flipped off the fans in Atlanta, he joined a long line of frustrated athletes who had responded to the boo birds with the dirty digit.

When he refused to hand over a water bottle at the airport in Miami and the bottle was later determined to have a secret stash for contraband in it, it seemed more stupid than dangerous.

But breeding dogs for the sick satisfaction of watching them fight and then executing the underperformers? This is the back story of a serial killer, not a mere coach killer.

From the very first day this story broke, it seemed impossible to imagine any other outcome. Vick bred dogs. He owned the property where dogfighting had clearly taken place. He wasn't breeding these poor creatures for the Westminster Dog Show.

Perhaps realizing he would be unable to answer the prosecution's first question — "Why, sir, did you breed dogs?" — Vick copped.

The guilty plea raises several questions: 1. Why not go to trial? 2. What is an appropriate punishment? 3. Will he ever play in the NFL again?

Could Vick have won at trial?

Well, clearly his attorneys didn't think so. The fact that his defense team — the ones with the most to gain financially by a protracted trial — recommended that Vick accept a plea speaks volumes about his overwhelming guilt. His lawyers must have felt completely incapable of mounting a credible defense.

A guilty defendant knows he can't rely on exculpatory evidence for acquittal, but surely someone as rich as Vick could assemble a legal dream team to muddle the prosecution's case and confuse a jury.

Couldn't Robert Shapiro, F. Lee Bailey, Barry Scheck and Alan Dershowitz convince any 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty that these dogs had committed suicide?

Possibly. But this trial promised to feature one thing the O.J. Simpson case lacked: damning eyewitness testimony.

Imagine if Al Cowlings and Robert Kardashian and five others were lined up to provide testimony against O.J., and you get a sense of what the Vick defense team would have been up against.

But given that leniency doesn't seem to be a component of the prosecution's plea offer, what did Vick have to lose by throwing the Hail Mary and going to trial? He would have had to sit there and endure in painstaking detail — and gruesome photos, one of which he may have been in — the carnage of Bad Newz Kennels.

Though it seems impossible that he'll ever salvage his career or reputation, a blow-by-blow public accounting of his behavior could only have made things worse.

Will the sentence fit the crime?

Reports have varied as to what the prosecution will ask for in terms of jail time — anywhere from 12 to 36 months — but one thing seems clear: Vick will be punished more severely than anyone who has ever been convicted of these crimes.

Vick can say goodbye to much — if not all — of the remaining money on the 10-year, $130M contract he signed in 2004, and the Falcons may try to recover some of the $22M already paid Vick as part of his signing bonus. It's safe to say that Arthur Blank believes Vick has violated the personal-conduct clause of his contract. It seems doubtful that, once Vick formalizes his plea next week, the Falcons will ever pay him another penny.

Given the loss of endorsements, Vick will likely lose over $100M as a result of his crimes. Major American corporations don't get hit with fines like that for even the most egregious violations.

Vick's crimes were not committed in the heat of the moment. He didn't snap. He didn't do too much meth or lose his mind with jealously. He matter-of-factly bred dogs to be used for his entertainment in a bloodsport.

A couple years in jail and all his net worth sounds about right to me.

Will Vick ever play in the NFL again?

No. How could he?

Even if the gambling aspect of the dogfighting ring does not earn Vick a lifetime ban, there just don't seem to be any circumstances that could lead him back under center in the NFL.

He's simply not a good enough quarterback to merit the s---storm signing him would unleash. What owner would invite the public backlash to acquire a QB with a 75.7 career rating?

Terrell Owens is an elite receiver. Jerry Jones deemed him worth the headache. Pacman Jones has the tools to be a shutdown corner. As long as he's not in prison or suspended, someone will give him a job. But in six seasons in the NFL, Michael Vick has thrown 71 touchdown passes and turned the ball over 79 times (52 picks, 27 lost fumbles).

Before all hell broke loose, there were a lot of NFL fans who thought the Falcons made a mistake in sending Matt Schaub to Houston. Vick was already a borderline starting NFL quarterback. Now he's radioactive.

When Vick submits to his plea deal next Monday, the judge is not obligated to accept the terms. He could instead opt for a harsher sentence.

Vick will want mercy from the judge. Which is more than Vick gave those dogs.

[Patler]

Patler, what you are saying is in direct contradiction of the 1988 article I quoted from the NY Times. Do you know who runs the NY Times? Jews. You think you know more about the law than Jews? I think not.

Interesting comment for you to make, since you do not know me, you do not know my ethnicity, you do not know my religious affiliation, you do not know my education and you do not know my profession(s).

[Patler]

The guilty plea means little regarding the charges he plead guilty to. It's possible he had ZERO to do with abusing animals, or no direct involvment with the operations of dog fighting, yet it still made sense to plead guilty.

He plead guilty because of the threat of racketeering charges. If he was just involved with the money end, he would still be subject to a draconian prison sentence.


I'm not defending Vick. Maybe there is massive evidence that he abused dogs. I am just disturbed by the process. I wish Vick had his day in court.

Good defense attorneys, which Vick certainly can afford, do not recommend guilty pleas that are likely to result in penalties greater than their clients actually deserve. It is just the opposite, they plead out because their attorneys know their client is guilty of things that will send them away for longer than the deal will.

Vick apparently is throwing in the towel very early in this process. He is giving up his freedom, likely his career, tremendous amounts of money and his "good name" without putting up a fight. Do you really think he would do that because of the "threat" of being charged by the prosecutors with something he didn't do?

MSNBC had an article stating the plea deal was agreed to now and very quickly when it became known that a second grand jury was scheduled to convene this week to consider yet more charges against Vick. With the deal it is unlikely the GJ will convene.

I believe there is a huge iceberg here, which is Vick's involvement in illegal activities. We are seeing only the small part that is above the surface.

[cpk1994]

i predict vick accepts the plea deal, comes out of jail clean and repentent, gets a second chance with the tampa bay buccs...who change their name to the tampa bay quarterbacks...

they then run plays with garcia behind center, vick lined up as a running back, simms at TE and gradkowski in the slot...

I predict he never plays in the NFL again. He will be in prison for 2008 probably through OTA's 2009, suspended for 2009 and maybe 2010 and who the hell would want this shithead in 2011?

You obviously underestmate the GM's in the NFL. ITs all about winning and the bottom line. If after he gets done serving his time he can go out and prove he still has some of his skills, some GM will take a chance, previous history be damned. I mean, TT signed Koren Robinson even wiith a DUI and prbation violation which TT knew was a 1 year suspension. I predict Vick will be back playing football somewhere, even if it means the CFL.

[Joemailman]

Vick will not play in the NFL again. The NFL is about winning. It's also about money. Lots of money. Money from sponsors and television contracts. Vick is toast here. Could he play in the CFL? I don't know. I'm not sure how big this story is playing north of the border.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Vick didn't want his day in court. He didn't want all that nasty garbage coming out in complete detail by the witnesses.

Vick didn't want to appear in court on the RACKETEERING charges, the club that was used to force him to plead guilty to the lesser charges.

It's possible he could have been convicted of racketeering, sent to prison for 20 years. "Racketeering" was intended to mean large crime organizations, doing millions of dollars of business in say, drug trade, controlling many cities. The racketeering laws were invented to convict mafia kingpins who were otherwise too difficult to directly connect to criminal activity. In my opinion, the prosecutors misused this law to deny Vick a fair trial. If the gang-that-couldn't-shoot-straight really were big-time racketeers, then hell, send them all to prison for 20 years.

Vick had NOTHING to lose by taking the dogfighting charges to trial. If OJ could get off, so might have Vick.

Next we will see Part II. Vick will try to appeal to the public by saying how wrong he was and how sorry he is.
....and there will be some that will believe it.

What would it take for you to believe that Vick was sincerely remorseful? Or do you forever reject this as a possibility?

[Harlan Huckleby]

His day in court is next Monday. Why do wish so hard in your heart of hearts that he wouldn't plead guilty. Dude, he did it.

I agree he did it. I've already convicted him in my mind. I would be perfectly happy if he had pleaded guilty to orgainizing the gambling and dogfighting because overwhelming evidence was amassed against him for these crimes.

But that's not what happened. The prosecution denied him a fair trial on the dogfighting charges with phony but technically effective racketeering charges. That to my mind is not justice.

[Zool]

Vick didn't want his day in court. He didn't want all that nasty garbage coming out in complete detail by the witnesses.

Vick didn't want to appear in court on the RACKETEERING charges, the club that was used to force him to plead guilty to the lesser charges.

It's possible he could have been convicted of racketeering, sent to prison for 20 years. "Racketeering" was intended to mean large crime organizations, doing millions of dollars of business in say, drug trade, controlling many cities. The racketeering laws were invented to convict mafia kingpins who were otherwise too difficult to directly connect to criminal activity. In my opinion, the prosecutors misused this law to deny Vick a fair trial. If the gang-that-couldn't-shoot-straight really were big-time racketeers, then hell, send them all to prison for 20 years.

Vick had NOTHING to lose by taking the dogfighting charges to trial. If OJ could get off, so might have Vick.

Next we will see Part II. Vick will try to appeal to the public by saying how wrong he was and how sorry he is.
....and there will be some that will believe it.

What would it take for you to believe that Vick was sincerely remorseful? Or do you forever reject this as a possibility?

I could honestly care less if he's remorseful, because he would have kept doing it if not caught. Being remorseful that you got caught isn't the same thing. Why exactly are you sticking up for this guy? He clearly knew what was going on, and per many eye witness accounts, he was involved.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I could honestly care less if he's remorseful, because he would have kept doing it if not caught. Being remorseful that you got caught isn't the same thing.

You have to use your own judgement about whether you believe somebody, so you are entitled to your opinion. But if you always took this attitude, then NOBODY could ever be forgiven in your mind for crimes.

Why exactly are you sticking up for this guy? He clearly knew what was going on, and per many eye witness accounts, he was involved.

I really am not defending Vick. I just think he should have gotten a trial as a matter of justice. A principle thing.

[Patler]

"Racketeering" was intended to mean large crime organizations, doing millions of dollars of business in say, drug trade, controlling many cities. The racketeering laws were invented to convict mafia kingpins who were otherwise too difficult to directly connect to criminal activity. In my opinion, the prosecutors misused this law to deny Vick a fair trial.

Oh really????
Is that why Microsoft and Best Buy have faced racketeering charges recently?
and Michael Milken of junk bonds fame?
and the cigarette industry during all their litigation regarding their research into the health effects of smoking?

There are defined crimes that can be involved in racketeering charges, particularly if a business is based on the activity, interstate commerce is involved, etc. Gambling is one such activity.

Vicks business, his kennel, seems to have based on breeding dogs for dog fighting, which involved gambling (quite high stakes by some reports) and was interstate in nature. Racketeering charges are entirely appropriate.