McCain kicking major ass

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

They are only interested in out of the way countries that have special interest for our country.

There was no special American interest in Bosnia or Kosovo, other than a general desire for stability in Europe. The main thrust was moral, to stem genocide or violence.

You are right, though. They are not purely for humanitarian intervention, practical considerations are also weighed.

Um, we were talking about neo cons. Boz and Kosovo weren't neocon interventions.

Practical: Yeah, like a velvet hammer.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

Um, we were talking about neo cons. Boz and Kosovo weren't neocon interventions.

HArd to say EXACTLY who the neocons are. They don't carry badges. Its a school of thought started by Bill Kristol's father back in the 60's. Irving Kristol was editor of a political journal. BTW, Irving Kristol was a patriotic leftist, a former marxist. Neocons believe in an activist foreign policy that promotes democracy and human rights. People who are mentioned in this group come from both Democrat and Republican parties.

Bosnia & Kosovo interventions were most certainly promoted by neocons and their ideological allies. Richard Perle was the leading and loudest morale voice for stopping the genocide. Bill Kristol beat the drums on TV and in his magazine. John McCain & Joe Biden were the most vocal advocates in the Senate, McCain is pretty-much a neocon.

Practical: Yeah, like a velvet hammer.

By practical I mean they argue how American interests are enhanced by any intervention, that is a consideration.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

Um, we were talking about neo cons. Boz and Kosovo weren't neocon interventions.

HArd to say EXACTLY who the neocons are. They don't carry badges. Its a school of thought started by Bill Kristol's father back in the 60's. Irving Kristol was editor of a political journal. BTW, Irving Kristol was a patriotic leftist, a former marxist. Neocons believe in an activist foreign policy that promotes democracy and human rights. People who are mentioned in this group come from both Democrat and Republican parties.

Bosnia & Kosovo interventions were most certainly promoted by neocons and their ideological allies. Richard Perle was the leading and loudest morale voice for stopping the genocide. Bill Kristol beat the drums on TV and in his magazine. John McCain & Joe Biden were the most vocal advocates in the Senate, McCain is pretty-much a neocon.

Practical: Yeah, like a velvet hammer.

By practical I mean they argue how American interests are enhanced by any intervention, that is a consideration.

Our policy wasn't being driven by neo cons. Don't be ridiculous. While they may have been in favor, they weren't making policy.

McCain: He isn't close to being a neo con.

[hoosier]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

Iraq is different because it involves violation of the principle of state sovereignty in

Give me a break. The first Gulf War never really ended. Iraq was still patroled by U.S. aircraft, with periodic bombing. Hussein was NOT complying with weapons inspections, despite misinformation to the contrary, he only became cooperative after 100,000 U.S. troops were sitting in Kuwait. The country was under sanctions that Noam Chomsky claimed was killing 50,000 young children and babies every year.

This was not a normal, soveriegn state.

The measures you mention--sanctions, troops on other side of border--imply sovereignty, even if its the questionable sovereignty of a rogue state. But then again, what state doesn't act like a rogue state from time to time? In any case, Bush's war is different from all other wars in that it tries to establish that merely potential threats (not actually existing threats) are a legitimate reason for invasion.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

Our policy wasn't being driven by neo cons. Don't be ridiculous. While they may have been in favor, they weren't making policy.

OK, ya. neocons had high positions in Bush administration - Wolfowitz, Perle.

McCain: He isn't close to being a neo con.

This word "neocon" really means two different things:

1) A Jewish conspiracy of men with dark hearts who want to make war in promotion of Isreali interests. I saw an outragous British documentary on the neocons (complete with ominous timpanis in background) that promoted this view. "The Project for New American Century", as you mentioned before, being the nerve center of their quest for world domination. The new Trilateral Commission. I take it you largely have accepted the Dangerous Bad Men theory.

2) "Neocon" refers to an intellectual stream of thought that combines liberal notions of democracy and human rights with ideas of American exceptionalism, and advocacy for the use of American military power for idealistic purposes. America as the shining beacon of democracy. It's been around for 40 years. People are "neocons" to various degrees. I am somewhat of a neocon, as is John McCain. Perle & Kristol are vocal and ideologically pure neocons.

I became impressed with the clarity with which the neocons addressed the situation in Yugoslavia. They recognized the moral imperative to intervene in a genocide a FULL TWO YEARS before the politicians were on the ball. And they pointed out the world-wide impact of forming a bond with and making a sacrifice for the Muslims of Bosnia. Not bad for a Jewish conspiracy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

In any case, Bush's war is different from all other wars in that it tries to establish that merely potential threats (not actually existing threats) are a legitimate reason for invasion.

I believe the Bush administration had convinced themselves that Iraq was a threat.

I was for the invasion because of the opportunity to rid the world of a very ugly and dangerous dynasty, with no end in sight for generations. I think now that I was wrong to support this, for 3 or 4 reasons.

The war has been a disaster. However, I see a very good chance of a positive outcome in the long term, 10-15 years, and history may be more kind than you can imagine right now.