How Voters Think

[Partial]

........we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts.......

Giving them handouts is only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is that they've taken that handout money from somebody else who truly earned it.

So then how does stopping giving them government handouts solve Partial's homelessness problem? He seems to think that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, which they should, but that's not how the real world is working. We live in the most prosperous nation in the world and are so self-interested that we're not willing to help those that have less opportunity than the upper class? Nice.

I used to work with a combat vet who dove under the work table every time one of the forklifts backfired. Helping him takes money out of the pocket of someone who earned it. Right? You gonna tell me that all the vets that came back from service who DID have free rides in college are all wealthy citizens now?

No, and thats why Vets get treatment beyond your average gangbanger. Personally I think there should be a mandatory two years of service and if I could go back in time I would have gone into the marines. I think it'd be good for kids because I sure as shit didn't know anything at 18 and jerked off through two years of college and wasted a lot of money.

I also think that two years of mandatory service at 18 would make a nation filled with much more integrity and willing to do things the right way.

[MJZiggy]

No, I don't. Those people who aren't are doing what it takes and hopefully being better parents and getting their kids through school and on to bigger and better things. Interesting topic, out of m group of good friends, the one who's dad was a county social worker with four kids and a mom who stayed at home with the kids, turned out the smartest. Out of that family, they produced a pharmacist, a bio-electrical engineer, a java developer and a high school senior who will be salutitorian.

I think there are some poor people out there that will do what it takes to get by. I think the vast majority aren't willing to put in the work now or didn't earlier in life and missed their opportunity.

Prosperity and intelligence are not necessarily coincidental. You're comparing the situation of a working class (and a county social worker is not impoverished by the way) family with two parents one who stayed home and you're surprised that the kids did well? What about the kid with a dad who left before he was born and a mom who got addicted when she was little? Where's the opportunity she missed and where does that great example of a work ethic come from for her? Comparatively easy to move up from middle class if you really think about it. I'm not saying no one's ever gotten out of the cycle of poverty, but often times it takes more than one generation of hard work and quite possibly a little assistance along the way. Anyone know how the welfare structure is set up these days? I know they made sweeping changes years ago that in the short term seemed to help, but haven't read an update in a while. Partial, I'm only going on here because I want you to take a look from another person's viewpoint and realize that your world view and theirs might not match up. I can tell you that as much as you put them down, there are likely plenty of people who are pissed as hell at you for all the opportunity you've been given. Brett Favre's mama used to teach her kids that they were no better than the special ed kids she taught. She did well.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Taxes, the idea behind them:

The current system is based on the notion of progressive income taxes, meaning that people who earn more money can pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes. Poorer people need more of their money just to suvive. This is the agreed philosophy we currently operate under since the 1930's.

(It seems that Scott not only rejects progressive taxes, he doesn't think a flat percentage is fair either. He wants to talk in terms of absolute dollars . So I would call Scott philosophically an extremist outside of any mainstream political party.)

Taxes, the reality:

The poorer you are, the higher percentage of your income goes to taxes. This is due to a variety of reasons: Social Security deductions are really a tax, and they are horribly regressive, and aren't applied at all to investment income. Investment income is taxed at a lower rate than wages. Wealthy people have mechanisms available to shelter income from taxes.

Class Warfare, the claim:

The rich are demonized and attacked by the middle and lower classes. Taxes are taking unfair portions of rich people's income.

Class Warfare, the reality:

Most advocates for the lower classes just want rich people to pay their share of taxes as set-out by agreed policy. There is no interest in punishing the rich.

[Partial]

No, I don't. Those people who aren't are doing what it takes and hopefully being better parents and getting their kids through school and on to bigger and better things. Interesting topic, out of m group of good friends, the one who's dad was a county social worker with four kids and a mom who stayed at home with the kids, turned out the smartest. Out of that family, they produced a pharmacist, a bio-electrical engineer, a java developer and a high school senior who will be salutitorian.

I think there are some poor people out there that will do what it takes to get by. I think the vast majority aren't willing to put in the work now or didn't earlier in life and missed their opportunity.

Prosperity and intelligence are not necessarily coincidental. You're comparing the situation of a working class (and a county social worker is not impoverished by the way) family with two parents one who stayed home and you're surprised that the kids did well? What about the kid with a dad who left before he was born and a mom who got addicted when she was little? Where's the opportunity she missed and where does that great example of a work ethic come from for her? Comparatively easy to move up from middle class if you really think about it. I'm not saying no one's ever gotten out of the cycle of poverty, but often times it takes more than one generation of hard work and quite possibly a little assistance along the way. Anyone know how the welfare structure is set up these days? I know they made sweeping changes years ago that in the short term seemed to help, but haven't read an update in a while. Partial, I'm only going on here because I want you to take a look from another person's viewpoint and realize that your world view and theirs might not match up. I can tell you that as much as you put them down, there are likely plenty of people who are pissed as hell at you for all the opportunity you've been given. Brett Favre's mama used to teach her kids that they were no better than the special ed kids she taught. She did well.

I'm saying give up on poverty all together because other than a few its futile. Fair Tax would help them out plenty, and help out the middle class.

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people. Your ideas are based on theory, and just don't match up with reality.

There is no way to convince you. You don't have the range of relationships and life experiences that would allow you to understand the lives of these people. So you'll never change. My dad is like you guys. He was very smart and hardworking, and worked his way up the ladder of life and doesn't understand why everybody else can't do it. Well, lets just say the world is not set up for everybody to be financially successful, it's a competitive world that produces and even needs people in the lower rungs.

[MJZiggy]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

She lives in the land of taxes Milwaukee. No, she isn't raising kids. That's why you have a husband or you work hard. How many people who have kids honestly don't make 40-50 grand? If you work hard, its pretty tough not to.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? You think the grocery store checkers who stands there working their asses off all day are making 50 grand, huh? You think that'll buy them a nice condo in, say, San Francisco? How 'bout Boston?

Working people don't deserve to live in those cool cities. They should only live in montana or the dakotas.

[Joemailman]

I also think that two years of mandatory service at 18 would make a nation filled with much more integrity and willing to do things the right way.

When Chris Dodd was running for the Dem nomination, he proposed this http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2970684.shtml

His candidacy went nowhere unfortunately. He was a good man who wasn't afraid to ask Americans to sacrifice. Contrast this to our current President who in the wake of 9/11 urged Americans to go shopping.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

No, I don't think a grocery store checker is an acceptable job if you're trying to raise a family by yourself. If you strive to be only a grocery store clerk, than maybe kids aren't for you.

You constantly prove you are an idiot. So, now you are in favor of only rich people having kids?

Have you considered that some people aren't smart and won't achieve. The world needs grocery clerks and others that we pay little to no money. So, they shouldn't have kids?

Dope.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

MJZiggy,

There really isn't point in discussing this. Partial is a college student who lives at home. He has a safety net, yet doesn't even realize it.

Even after he leaves home he still will have that net, and as i'm willing to bet his folks would let him live at their house if things got rough.

He knows nothing of being completely self sufficient. He knows nothing about being poor...he thinks because he has no money or very little in college that he is poor.

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

[GoPackGo]

[MJZiggy]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Our boy has mentioned on the forum several times that he went to Platteville because he couldn't get into the bigger school.

[Harlan Huckleby]

so what.

John McCain graduated last in his class at the Naval Academy.

Joe Biden was at bottom of class in law school, if memory serves.

There are tons of smart and even brilliant people who aren't great scholars.

Oh my god, did I just suggest that PArtial is brilliant?

anyway, i don't like the snippy shit. judging people by this or that status symbol - what their parents do for a living, what college they went to.

[MJZiggy]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?