How Voters Think

[GrnBay007]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

I think at one point he was referring to "thugs" rather than poor people...

Hell, its not the even the lower class struggling to get by families with parents working two jobs. It is just the people that don't care about anything but themselves and live strictly in that moment in time (no planning for the future).

[Freak Out]

and if I could go back in time I would have gone into the marines.

Why do you have to go back in time? Join now.

[MJZiggy]

At one point he was and then suggested that all the folks that have to live like that want to be there or are there because they're not working hard enough. (and just because some kid saves his cash and wants to feel "klassy" by putting rims on the hoopty does not necessarily make him a thug does it? Maybe the kid just realizes his life is going nowhere, or maybe he's just a kid who doesn't know any better)

He's generalized repeatedly. Apparently being in the jobs that these working folk have to take because they don't have his education isn't good enough (re: the grocery checker). His respect for those working people seems to stop at the middle class which he's also mentioned specifically in the thread. He might have mentioned those people who work, but he's also talking about giving up on the programs and services that help those very working people.

His generalization was a gross generalization in which he's also suggested that the people who live in impoverished areas are not deserving of basic services because they don't make enough to pay taxes.

[GrnBay007]

I have personally witnessed many people from far less than desirable upbringings go on to make a success of their life. It may not be what some of you consider to be a "success" but they are supporting a family within their means. There is no doubt it's extremely difficult in some cases and those individuals need to have an incredible will to succeed....but it can be done. There are SO many educational opportunities out there that support people that can't afford a college education or a trade school it's unbelievable. From reading through the thread it seems some are talking about people that actually want to better their lives and struggling compared to those that don't care and just want handouts. There is a huge difference...just as there is with people that want to work and those that really don't. I don't know if any welfare system can ever fairly exclude the crooks out there that exploit it. There will always be someone out there to find a loophole to ruin certain things for others that could benefit. It is comparable to so many crooks out there collecting disability unjustly.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

HH,

Sorry, but you missed the point. I am by no means impugning the family who raised the children. I'm impugning his view of success. For many, those professions are middle class..not successful.

If you asked my friends in high school, college or their parents they would not have defined those jobs as success. They would have looked at their child as a failure. If you come from a family of physicians, you like most parents want better for your child..and clearly those professions aren't. I am loathe to talk about my personal life..thus the creation of Tyrone..which let's me have some anonymity..avoiding personal questions. But, i will let you know that i grew up in Fox Point and attended Nicolet. And, the same stupid, arrogant, "born on third base, but thought they hit a triple" existed there..but, on a much grander scale. If you presented those professions as options, you woulda been considered a loser. Unless you were going to Stanford or MIT..not just being a programmer. I guess when one of your classmates is now a billionare http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2005/0905/118.html (convinced her husbands investment firm to invest in yahoo), or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Steuer, or scion of the Marcus family, or scion of stein optical, or the numerous doctors and lawyers being a 55-90k salaryman is a loser.

The point is that success is clearly subjective. A grocery clerk or retail salesperson can be a success if their parents were poor, on welfare, or drug addicts.

Platteville: Not a chance. Platteville, by any standard (peterson, gourman report) is not considered a good school. Can one succeed if one attended, of course. But, for the most part, the students that went there didn't apply themselves from grades 1-12.

And, using partial's harsh, apply yourself, pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality...if they wanted a small school, they shoulda earned a scholly to an excellent private school. IT IS JUST THAT EASY. ANYONE CAN EARN A SCHOLLY.

The point is that Partial openly looks down on people. He is an elitist, yet has no clue that for many he would be looked down with disdain by more successful elitists.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you?

[MJZiggy]

And what you're saying is exactly what I've been trying to get P to understand. You can't judge the people that want it and can't based on those that would rather just get the handout. I'm not advocating the status quo by any means, but I am suggesting that just because it doesn't work the way it is, you don't give up on the whole thing. You find a different way to make it work better. If everyone gave up when something didn't work well, we'd all be sitting here in the dark. There'll always be abuse, but there'll also always be people out there who weary of the enormous hill they have to climb and are looking for a little help getting there.

I asked once before in the thread if anyone had an update as to what was happening with the welfare system since welfare reform. Last I heard was in order to get the welfare you had to be making a demonstrable effort.

I have personally witnessed many people from far less than desirable upbringings go on to make a success of their life. It may not be what some of you consider to be a "success" but they are supporting a family within their means. There is no doubt it's extremely difficult in some cases and those individuals need to have an incredible will to succeed....but it can be done.

I bet the kids of these folks will have an easier time of it than their parents did...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

so what.

John McCain graduated last in his class at the Naval Academy.

Joe Biden was at bottom of class in law school, if memory serves.

There are tons of smart and even brilliant people who aren't great scholars.

Oh my god, did I just suggest that PArtial is brilliant?

anyway, i don't like the snippy shit. judging people by this or that status symbol - what their parents do for a living, what college they went to.

Ah, great examples..cept they GOT INTO DECENT SCHOOLS.

No, there are not tons of smart brilliant people who aren't scholars. They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

There are people who aren't academically inclined who are good at other things..being an entrepreneur, artists, etc.

And, i agree with you..i don't judge on those criteria. But, if partial is gonna jduge, then it is my duty to show him how stupid he is for judging. He wants to apply his standards to judging...yet, doesn't realize there are other standards...and standards that would judge him harshly.

The parents i knew growing up would be mortified if there child went to platteville. There would be talk of "he is finding himself," or "we hope he gets it together," or "as long as he is happy we don't care what he does"..yet you would see the pain in their face.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I have personally witnessed many people from far less than desirable upbringings go on to make a success of their life. It may not be what some of you consider to be a "success" but they are supporting a family within their means. There is no doubt it's extremely difficult in some cases and those individuals need to have an incredible will to succeed....but it can be done. There are SO many educational opportunities out there that support people that can't afford a college education or a trade school it's unbelievable. From reading through the thread it seems some are talking about people that actually want to better their lives and struggling compared to those that don't care and just want handouts. There is a huge difference...just as there is with people that want to work and those that really don't. I don't know if any welfare system can ever fairly exclude the crooks out there that exploit it. There will always be someone out there to find a loophole to ruin certain things for others that could benefit. It is comparable to so many crooks out there collecting disability unjustly.

Exactly.

That is what MJ is trying to get partial to understand. Success is subjective.

Most troubling is his idea that a certain income is needed to have children..as if rich kids are problem free.

I lived in orlando for a number of years. I'm sure that you, partial and others enjoy the theme parks. Yet, those folks who work there aren't worthy of having children..as they top out at 10 dollars and hour. Partial would say they should get another job...as it is just that easy. Yet, who would work the parks...the FORTYFIVE THOUSAND that work at Disney alone.

I think that it is extremely noble to work hard to support your family..especially if you don't make a ton of cash. It is much easier to not have children..or just run away..as some guys do.

Crooks: You are right. Just as there are crooks that make a lot of money by stealing from our government, cutting edges, cheating on their taxes, etc.

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling. The republicans have demonized the poor..they are bad people and going to hurt you. What happened to poor working class folks who go to church, etc.

When i lived in Tampa, i worked for my wife's grandfather pt running his rental business when he snowbirded back to wisco for the summers. I repeatedly had white folks asking how i could go into "those neighborhoods" as they feared them. Yet, i went all the time..no weapon..because they were just poor..they worked 2 jobs at minimum wage. They were black. Nothing ever happened to me.

He condemns a group of people based on his experience with a limited group of the population.

Should i do the same towards partial's friends based on his stupidity?

[Scott Campbell]

Taxes, the idea behind them:

The current system is based on the notion of progressive income taxes, meaning that people who earn more money can pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes. Poorer people need more of their money just to suvive. This is the agreed philosophy we currently operate under since the 1930's.

(It seems that Scott not only rejects progressive taxes, he doesn't think a flat percentage is fair either. He wants to talk in terms of absolute dollars . So I would call Scott philosophically an extremist outside of any mainstream political party.)

Taxes, the reality:

The poorer you are, the higher percentage of your income goes to taxes. This is due to a variety of reasons: Social Security deductions are really a tax, and they are horribly regressive, and aren't applied at all to investment income. Investment income is taxed at a lower rate than wages. Wealthy people have mechanisms available to shelter income from taxes.

Class Warfare, the claim:

The rich are demonized and attacked by the middle and lower classes. Taxes are taking unfair portions of rich people's income.

Class Warfare, the reality:

Most advocates for the lower classes just want rich people to pay their share of taxes as set-out by agreed policy. There is no interest in punishing the rich.

You have horribly misrepresented my position, and have made claims that I and a few others are unable to comprehend anything beyond our own socio economic situations, while implying that you are able to fully comprehend what is best for all of God's creatures. In other words - typical Harlan.

[MJZiggy]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you?

Your wife might object...

[Scott Campbell]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you?

Your wife might object...

Why?

[Scott Campbell]

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people.

Of course you don't Harlan.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you?

Your wife might object...

Ex wife. She is Florida..i am in arizona. I figured that was enough distance from the woman who BROKE MY HEART..AHH...AHHH...BITCH!! (best sam kinison)

[Scott Campbell]

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling.

Being poor is not a character flaw. At all. If someone is doing the best they possibly can, then they deserve as much respect as anyone.

But if you don't think that there are a lot of poor people out there who are poor because they prefer to be lazy or underachieve, then you are just sticking your head in the sand. Poverty in and of itself is not noble.