How Voters Think

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

Can i marry you?

Your wife might object...

Why?

Prescient Scott. But that was just college, and she was just experimenting.

Some help with the womanly chores of keeping my cardboard box ship shape she woulda appreciated.

[RashanGary]

I've seen both sides. My mom left my dad after they had 6 kids because he developed a serious drinking problem. He had everything going for him after highschool but he drank it away and my mom suffered. We grew up poor but my mom went to college (with 6 kids) with the help of my step dad at the time. She's now a nurse, making a good living doing well.

I never gave a shit about school. I remember in 6th grade, I aced the entry test for higher math. I've always clashed with athority so my two teachers accused me of cheating and then pronouced to the class that some other nerd was moving ahead to higher math because he cared about doing will. From there, I got filtered into basic math and was bored out of my mind. I just sort of showed up, did the minimum and got by.

Then came high school. I started using drugs and drinking regularly. I got through classes with passing grades for the first two years while I still attneded regularly. I wasn't dumb. I got A's on tests and finals. I just didn't give a shit. I really had no focus, nothing to live for. At one point, I thought about how little I had, and I said, I'm smart. I have that and with that, I always had hope that when I wanted, I'd make it happen for myself. I also grew up (before my dad went down hill) on a farm with a grandpa who worked his ass off every day. I was a hard and willing worker. Lazyness still bothers me today. Those two things probably saved me but anyway. . .

As my high school career developed, I started getting underage drinking tickets and racking up fines. I've never been lazy so I worked from age 15 and I've never stopped working (I'm 26 now). One day I got caught smoking by the police in "smokers alley". I had a tabocco charge. I missed the court date. I had just turned 17 and the police came, picked me up and brought me to jail. Not kiddy jail, big person jail. My mom never came to get me on a $50 bail. That was the semester I had decided to turn it around. I had all A's half way through the semester, I just wanted to prove to myself and everyone else that I was capable of all A's if I wanted them. Well, I missed 2 weeks of school before a teacher found out I was in jail. She bailed me out and offered to have me live with her. I was embarassed and really down on myself after spending time in jail. I didn't want charity. I said no. Had I said yeah, I probably would have been in college right after high school because with my ACT, and my guidance councelor filling out forms, I had scholorships and FA that would have paid my entire way with money on top for spending.

Eventually I did not graduate on time. I got called into the principals office with my mom. They told me that they wished they were as smart as me. They said my teachers all swore I could do anything I wanted. Proble was, I had a big time attitude against athority and I didn't give a shit about anything. He told me I should get my own buisness because it's going to be hard for me to work for people.

My mom kicked me out. I had just turned 18, had no high school diploma and didn't have a care in the world. There were nights where I didn't know where i was going to stay. I'd go to a friends window and he'd let me in. I'd go to my girlfriend and she'd sneak me in. Eventually I ran out of options but just then, I met the became friends with the neighborhood drug house. It was just pot mostly, but they were poor as dirt, living off SSI. The mom was a good hearted person though. She didn't even know me, but she wouldn't let me sleep on the street. I vowed to finish high school and I did.

I was still drinking and smoking pot every day. I worked at Wendy's this whole time. I had developed a method of skimming the till without the missing money showing up when they added up the accounting every night. They put me on register (big mistake) and I started my till skimming. Trhoughout the night as people ordered, if they ever ordered something off the .99 menu, I'd just pretend like I pushed the button and add it to their total. Instead of giving them their reciept, I'd throw it in the garbage and take the money that it should have costed if I punched it up correctly. I'd keep track of 20 of those each night and earn an extra 120 per week (I worked 6 nights). That worked out really well considering I had a ghetto appartment with my 17 year old girlfriend at the time.


Anyway, life went on like that. I eventually graduated highschool a year late, workign my way through. I had a friend of the family offer to have me come to GB. I was like "hell yeah". I left my girlfriend. We cried. It was tough. I didn't know anyone here. I stopped drinking. STopped using drugs. I got a job at a grocery store making $10 per hour. Seriously, to me that was a lot of money. I had no standards. I didn't even know how to pay a bill. My ghetto land lord used to just pick up the rent check. Luckily for me, I'm attractive to girls and noboyd knew me so I eventually met my current wife. She comes from a very normal family. They make good money, are very smart with their finances. Her dad is 53 and looking to retire.

She got pregnant. We decided to have the baby (a much bigger sacrafice to her than me). She had to quit school. I got a new job at a factory, then as a framing carpenter. Eventually, I sort of learned on my own and through my wife hot to do normal things that you guys all take for granted like pay bills or not be a fucking jack ass at work. If I was ugly as sin and stupid (sorry, but I think the only reason I was able to get jobs is becuase I never looked bad. It's sad, but I think it helped me). I guarantee a start like mine would have doomed most people. I'm the only one of my friends that I know that is having any level of success.

I was workign as a carpenter. I was happy with that. I talked my wife into having one more kid, then we could just raise our two kids togehter and put that long term commitment behind us. Well, just then I got in a fight with a coworker. I was fired from my job. I decided to go back to school. I got a job working till 1:00 AM. I was taking 12 credits and working 38 hours per week. I was sleeping 5 hours per night. I have always been in great shape phyisically from the work I did but with school, work and the two boys (I watched them on Friday's and Saturdays), I didn't have time to exercies. For the first time, I had a few extra pounds. I wasn't sleeping. I was sick at one point for about 4 month strait. I have pictures where I don't even look like myself of last year. I eventually got close enough were I cut out some insurances just to get through this last year. Now I work 16 hours per week and have 15 credits. I watch my boys 2 days per week but it's not bad at all right now. I just took the state entry test for engineering techs and scored number 1 state wide. I have interviews lining up.

I've decided I'm going to continue my education. I'm going to do it slowly though. I don't care if I'm not done till I'm 40, I just can't see me punching out numbers and inspecting work forever. It's already getting boring. I have some ideas, but I don't like to talk about them. I'd rather wait till it materializes and show people.

Everyone I know says they can't believe I made it out of my situation.

I had a few people througout my life that instilled just enough love and belief in me that I wasn't completely lost. I had a grandpa who was a farmer, then when farming went got tough in Aurora Wisconsin, 2 hours north of here (not as ideal for farming as GB), he went to Detroit, worked on machines and then built his own shop on his farm. I grew up there for the first 6 years of my life and visited until I was about 10. He'd work from 6 AM until 7 at night every day, often times on weekends. He was the person I most looked up to in my life and still is. (he died when I was 11).

He was a bit of a bad ass though. Apparently noboyd dared step foot on our property as he shot some guy in the 60's and claimed it to be an accident. That was when he moved to Detroit for a while, the neighbors I talk to now said he was laying low.

I got my work ethic from him and a little bit of the crazy streak too. I once had a few thousand dollars owed to me (just before my 2nd child) and lets just say I got it back the old fashioned way and I didn't sleep to well because I was wondering if I'd be woken up by the police taking me to jail. I had it all figured out though. I didn't do anything that was against the law or make any direct threats. I just got my money back and it looked like I was crazy. No crime in that

Anyway, here I am. I'm not in jail. I'm about to get a good job. I don't particularly relate well to people because of what I've been through. Most of the people I associate with today (all of them acctually) are completely the opposite of what I was. Nobody (except my wife) even knows the details. In fact, this will be one fo the first times I've really talked about it in a long time. It acctually feels good ot get it off my chest.


Feel free to judge me. That's fine. I had a tough up bringing and experienced some tough situaitons. Know what though, I take time every day and I look at my boys and almost cry because they are so wonderfull and they do not have to experience anything that I did. I have every intention to make a success out of my life and have security and as poor as we've been, we have money flwoing into our 401K's and IRA's for the last 5 years and it's starting to acctually mean something now.

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves. Sorry for rambling on, but my belief in earning what you get in life deosn't come from the perspective of someone who's living at home going to platteville. It comes from someone who was given nothing but a kick out the door and a few articals of clothing at age 18 and has made everything I have with the help of my wife and the inspiration of my kids.



Oh, and I'll say this. As a person who was just scraping by off a fast food job and embessling money, I can say that I believe the #1 reason people are poor is becuase of their up bringing. If they are not taught how to live, it's a bitch to learn at age 18 on your own. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but there was a time when I didn't even know how to pay a bill. Big deal, right. A bunch of kids don't when they're 16. Well, I was 18, on my own and I had bills. I took my breaks and got out. I can understand if some people never do though. Even still, I don't believe they deserve free money. We are survivors. They will find a way and through that, they will become more than they knew possible. Give people just enough to survive and they will in the lowest of low with no pride in themselves. It's really a sad place to be in my opinion.

I don't feel bad for them though. They have to pick their heads up and make it happen. I could be sitting in jail or working at McDonalds. Instead I took every break, worked my ass off and made it happen.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling.

Being poor is not a character flaw. At all. If someone is doing the best they possibly can, then they deserve as much respect as anyone.

But if you don't think that there are a lot of poor people out there who are poor because they prefer to be lazy or underachieve, then you are just sticking your head in the sand. Poverty in and of itself is not noble.

Nobody is denying there are lazy poor folks. Just as there are plenty of lazy rich folks that didn't earn their money and underachieve (and underachieve at least means they tried). Take a bow mr. president. Hello Paris Hilton. But, drug dealing and panhandling, while misdirected, at least show a work ethic. They aren't just picking up a check.

I've prolly more experience than most with poor folks. And, for the most part i found them hardworking. Percentage wise i think most are decent folks. The bad ones are more visible and skew perceptions.

Infact, it isn't even close that more white folks are poor and lazy..then again there are more of them. In my experience it is white people that are on "disability" more than minorities. Maybe blacks know how to cheat welfare, but whites definitely know the scam of disability.

And, while i don't know your religion..jokes about mormon on the board..here in az, the mormons are the ones known for taking gov't money..having more children than they can afford. It sure isn't the hard working mexicans (whites might not like the fact that some are illegal, but nobody ever calls them lazy), blacks or indians (well, the casinos do help).

It is partials subtle racism that i find most objectionable. References to "thugs" that really translates to BLACK. As if no white people are that way..no white trash. Perhaps a trip to west virginia, appalachia, etc. would change his viewpoint.

Lastly, i find his views of how poor folks should live their life and spend their money sickening. It is as if you are poor you should only spend your money wisely. Right. Like no middle class "achievers" don't spend their money foolishly (bad stocks, bad real estate, credit card debt, living beyond their means)...we have an expression in scottsdale for it..30k millionaire..and that doesn't describe poor folks..it is stupid lower middle class white people. So, you are poor, most likely under educated, yet you should be smarter than the educated folks and make wise decisions. IDIOTIC.

Do we even want to talk about the institutions that prey on poor folks...rent to own, title loans, etc.

[RashanGary]

Some day (after my kids are grown and I'm really established), I plan on helping some kid who's in a bad situation. I'll find someone who's drinking, has a rough family life and really wants to make it happen. I know he won't want help (I never have and denied it when it was offered) but I'll convince one of those messed up little fuckers to take my help and promise to do the same for some kid, some day. It's something I really want to do. Closure or something.

Anwway, that's my story. I left out a bunch, but for the most part the messed up jist is up there

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Great story JH. Wendy's called, they say you owe a couple thousand.

BTW, you are right...things have to be learned.

My ex use to work for Eckerd Family Youth Alternatives...she had to teach these kids the basics of life..how to brush their teeth, not to use a towel to wipe their ass, etc...and these weren't toddlers.

There is now science showing that intellect can be affected by the number of words you hear as a child...parents are now trying to say 30k words a day around their children.

I know i got my love of learning and reading from my mom who read to my brother and myself for years..not children's books, but Dickens, etc.

[Partial]

No, I don't think a grocery store checker is an acceptable job if you're trying to raise a family by yourself. If you strive to be only a grocery store clerk, than maybe kids aren't for you.

You constantly prove you are an idiot. So, now you are in favor of only rich people having kids?

Have you considered that some people aren't smart and won't achieve. The world needs grocery clerks and others that we pay little to no money. So, they shouldn't have kids?

Dope.

While one spouse is at the grocery store the other can work an office job. I worked at Pick'n'save for two years and I can tell you that these adults are working a high schoolers job at night or a college students job during the day.

I don't think its idiotic to expect people that want kids to have two working partners if they intend to work in a grocery store as a cashier and have children.

Everyone has a brain and is intelligent enough to get by. I believe its a lot more the size of the fight in the bear, than it is the size of the bear in the fight. Especially when it comes to success.

[Partial]

I know I'm lucky. I am saying these people should and do know better than their actions reflect. They like their lifestyle though and continue to live it. That won't ever change.

By what example did they learn (like you had the example to learn from) better than their actions reflect? We learn by example. Who taught these kids the right way to live and manage money and take care of themselves? Should is nice, but you have to work with the world the way it is, not the way it should be, and by giving up on these people you still haven't solved your panhandling problem, and by the way, have you ever noticed how many of them are vets?

MJZiggy,

There really isn't point in discussing this. Partial is a college student who lives at home. He has a safety net, yet doesn't even realize it.

Even after he leaves home he still will have that net, and as i'm willing to bet his folks would let him live at their house if things got rough.

He knows nothing of being completely self sufficient. He knows nothing about being poor...he thinks because he has no money or very little in college that he is poor.

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

Ha. Rip on Platteville. That's funny because I see Platteville engineers placing better with higher salaries than the pompass asses of Madison. That's true I didn't apply myself in high school, not that I need to explain myself to some douche bag who thinks he is the shit because he went to madison...

As for what I referenced as a family, the oldest one is 25 and they are pretty damn successful yet came from a very poor family. All that is implying is that lower income working class families who want to be successful can be, it all comes down to attitude.

What exactly do you do for a living Tyrone? I'd be curious to know. Do you toot your horn about being a badger to your co-workers in salary inflated Phoenix?

[Partial]

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Ding ding ding. Madison's engineering program is the 4th best in the state if you include Michigan tech. Laughable One could argue Marquette is better as well

I know 4 or 5 good students from Madison that went on to take 40k engineering jobs out of school, where you Platteville graduate was taking 50-60k for a job in Iowa or Illinois in a town with lower cost of living

[Partial]

The fact that he considers a family to have been the most succesfull because they produced middle class earners..(java, pharm, etc..none are even in the same stratosphere as doctors, attorneys, directors at companies, etc.) should tell you all you need to know about him.

That, and that he started college at platteville. He obviously didn't apply himself in high school or just isn't bright enough to have gone to a good school...hurts, partial, doesn't it when someone judges you and finds you lacking.

you wandered into creepy territory here, Tyrone. You think you know somebody because their family works at certain professions? Down, boy.

And BTW, Platteville is a good engineering school, my nephew went there and he was a top notch student, and I know a professor who taught there. I'm not sure if it attracts people who couldn't get into bigger schools, or people who are more comfortable in a small school environment.

Our boy has mentioned on the forum several times that he went to Platteville because he couldn't get into the bigger school.

Yeah? So waht? I went to a good high school. A friend of mine scored a 30 on his ACT and a 3.9 and did not get in. I had a 2.7 GPA and a 30 on my ACT as also did not get in.

[Partial]

You do realize that you're defending the person on this thread who judged an entire class of working poor as no-good lazy people who like their conditions based on a kid riding around with nice rims on his hoopty and the fact that he finds panhandlers annoying, right?

No no, there is a difference between the working class poor and the hoodlums who ruin Milwaukee. I am talking about the later. Anyway, wasn't this discussion about Fair Tax and its brilliance? Typically your working class family progresses to middle class or higher because they manage their money wisely. Zaquitrias and his boys do not because they're thugged out.

[Partial]

and if I could go back in time I would have gone into the marines.

Why do you have to go back in time? Join now.

I have too much going for now with a committed girlfriend, a solid job, and 13/16 done with school.

[Partial]

At one point he was and then suggested that all the folks that have to live like that want to be there or are there because they're not working hard enough. (and just because some kid saves his cash and wants to feel "klassy" by putting rims on the hoopty does not necessarily make him a thug does it? Maybe the kid just realizes his life is going nowhere, or maybe he's just a kid who doesn't know any better)

No, it makes him a useless dumbass.

He's generalized repeatedly. Apparently being in the jobs that these working folk have to take because they don't have his education isn't good enough (re: the grocery checker). His respect for those working people seems to stop at the middle class which he's also mentioned specifically in the thread. He might have mentioned those people who work, but he's also talking about giving up on the programs and services that help those very working people.

People make their decisions of what they want to be and should accept the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair. They should deal with it and move on.

His generalization was a gross generalization in which he's also suggested that the people who live in impoverished areas are not deserving of basic services because they don't make enough to pay taxes.

whoa whoa whoa... I am saying they don't deserve any more money pumped into social programs and whatnot trying to change their ways because its futile. Failure breeds failure. They have laziness engrained in them. Ask Michelle if she knows how many times a day her nephew gets hit up for coin on a typical day. It's disgusting frankly.

[Partial]

It is this mindset that being poor is a character flaw that is so troubling.

Being poor is not a character flaw. At all. If someone is doing the best they possibly can, then they deserve as much respect as anyone.

But if you don't think that there are a lot of poor people out there who are poor because they prefer to be lazy or underachieve, then you are just sticking your head in the sand. Poverty in and of itself is not noble.

Exactly what I have been saying in a far more elegant way.

[Partial]

You know, that is one thing that I hate about Madison. Tyrone is implying that he is superior because he came from a rich family and went to Madison. That's bullshit. It's a good school and all, but I sure as hell am smarter than my girlfriend who graduated with a 3.9 gpa in biology from there.

It's actually kind of an interesting parallel because it shows how irrelevant brains are and how important is. I could get the same degree from UWM as her and I'd make 10k-30k less per year than her simply because she'll have the UW crest on her diploma and I wouldn't.

Definitely shows the value of hard work imo. You start young and the fruits will pay off later.

Unless you go for engineering, then going to any number of schools would get you more money.

[MJZiggy]

Partial, are you really so myopic that you've missed Tyrone's point this horridly? I would be sad to think so but you've proven his point quite effectively.