Moktada al-Sadr, Emperor of Iraq

[texaspackerbacker]

Gunakor, I think your reading must be flawed. I'm ripping Freedom of this and Freedom of that? Didn't I just say, people are free to believe or practice or express or defend any old piece of shit excuse of a religion they want to? You don't see that as defending freedom? And as for Freedom of the Press, how is criticizing the content of what the sick damned left-biased media spew the same as being against their freedom to spew the vile crap? I never said they shouldn't be allowed to, just that they were despicable for doing so.

You say, "Yet without these freedoms, America would not be so superior to the nations you wish to Americanize". That's precisely the point, we AREN'T without those freedoms; Muslim nations do not have those freedoms; Thus, you apparently agree with at least that one of many aspects of the superiority which I am speaking of.

And as for your view of religion--all a matter of perspective, no absolutes, crap like that, that basically translates to universalism, which basically translates to atheism. Yes, you certainly have the freedom to believe bogus shit like that, and I feel sorry for you and anybody who does.

[MJZiggy]

Ummm...I work with some of these people...and the clients they work with lead me to believe that you just may be absolutely and horrifically wrong to categorize them so...I'll never say that there aren't evil Muslims in the world, just like the things we discussed in the conversation that we had about the religious right, but the generalizations you make are unreasonable and based on what you've seen in the news. It's coming to my attention that people really do hear what they want to hear out of the media (except in your case it's to label it as liberal and use that as an excuse to dismiss it.) If all Muslims were inherently evil as you suggest, then how is it possible that the humanitarian and rebuilding efforts are seeing success?

And I didn't say ALL Muslims are bad--I've known a few good ones. The huge majority, however, are true believers in their sick rotten excuse for a religion which promotes hate, barbarism, ignorance, sexism, genocide, and tyranny. Could you possibly deny that? Certainly not rationally.

As for what "liberals" push, I have gone into great detail in several posts on that and never gotten a denial or a defense of it from any of ya'all, which is understandable, because the detestable tenets of liberalism in this country are both undeniable and indefensible. If you think otherwise, feel free to deny or defend them.

You'll never convince me by aggression. Convince me by being right. The basic tenets of Islam are not as you suggest. (and since when is ignorance a religious belief?) What you describe is extremism adopted by some. Consider that there are some Christian extremists who believe similar things.

[texaspackerbacker]

What aggression?

So a FERVENT BELIEF IN THE LITERAL TRUTH OF CHRISTIANITY IS EXTREMISM NOW? Is that REALLY your position?

[GrnBay007]

how is criticizing the content of what the sick damned left-biased media spew the same as being against their freedom to spew the vile crap? I never said they shouldn't be allowed to, just that they were despicable for doing so.

Vintage Tex!

Does your blood pressure go up as you type this? :P

[Gunakor]

Gunakor, I think your reading must be flawed. I'm ripping Freedom of this and Freedom of that? Didn't I just say, people are free to believe or practice or express or defend any old piece of shit excuse of a religion they want to? You don't see that as defending freedom? And as for Freedom of the Press, how is criticizing the content of what the sick damned left-biased media spew the same as being against their freedom to spew the vile crap? I never said they shouldn't be allowed to, just that they were despicable for doing so.

You say, "Yet without these freedoms, America would not be so superior to the nations you wish to Americanize". That's precisely the point, we AREN'T without those freedoms; Muslim nations do not have those freedoms; Thus, you apparently agree with at least that one of many aspects of the superiority which I am speaking of.

And as for your view of religion--all a matter of perspective, no absolutes, crap like that, that basically translates to universalism, which basically translates to atheism. Yes, you certainly have the freedom to believe bogus shit like that, and I feel sorry for you and anybody who does.

My apologies then Tex. I misinterpreted what you said. So, it's a good thing for people to have these freedoms but dispicable for people to use them? Or am I still misunderstanding?

My view on religion that it's all a matter of perspective does not translate to athiesm. It translates to DIVERSITY. That does include athiests, but it also includes Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Scientologists, Hindus, and every other religion you could think of. It means that people should be allowed to believe in whatever religion they choose and not be labeled as tyrants or barbarians simply because they aren't Christians. Thier religion isn't just some "piece of shit excuse for a religion" - that is just YOUR perspective. I disagree with that perspective, as do many others here in America. After all, our country is one of the more diverse on the entire planet.

As for your whole deal with superiority, I guess to put an end to it I'll even AGREE with you that our way of life is in many ways superior to that of Arab countries. At the same time, I don't feel that gives us the right to impose upon thier lifestyle. Especially on religious grounds.

[Zool]

how is criticizing the content of what the sick damned left-biased media spew the same as being against their freedom to spew the vile crap? I never said they shouldn't be allowed to, just that they were despicable for doing so.

Vintage Tex!

Does your blood pressure go up as you type this? :P

Does it ever go down?

[texaspackerbacker]

how is criticizing the content of what the sick damned left-biased media spew the same as being against their freedom to spew the vile crap? I never said they shouldn't be allowed to, just that they were despicable for doing so.

Vintage Tex!

Does your blood pressure go up as you type this? :P

Does my blood pressure go up? Yeah, in a good adrenalin rush way. Sometimes it's darn near orgasmic.

Does what ever go down, Zool?

[texaspackerbacker]

Gunakor, I think your reading must be flawed. I'm ripping Freedom of this and Freedom of that? Didn't I just say, people are free to believe or practice or express or defend any old piece of shit excuse of a religion they want to? You don't see that as defending freedom? And as for Freedom of the Press, how is criticizing the content of what the sick damned left-biased media spew the same as being against their freedom to spew the vile crap? I never said they shouldn't be allowed to, just that they were despicable for doing so.

You say, "Yet without these freedoms, America would not be so superior to the nations you wish to Americanize". That's precisely the point, we AREN'T without those freedoms; Muslim nations do not have those freedoms; Thus, you apparently agree with at least that one of many aspects of the superiority which I am speaking of.

And as for your view of religion--all a matter of perspective, no absolutes, crap like that, that basically translates to universalism, which basically translates to atheism. Yes, you certainly have the freedom to believe bogus shit like that, and I feel sorry for you and anybody who does.

My apologies then Tex. I misinterpreted what you said. So, it's a good thing for people to have these freedoms but dispicable for people to use them? Or am I still misunderstanding?

My view on religion that it's all a matter of perspective does not translate to athiesm. It translates to DIVERSITY. That does include athiests, but it also includes Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Scientologists, Hindus, and every other religion you could think of. It means that people should be allowed to believe in whatever religion they choose and not be labeled as tyrants or barbarians simply because they aren't Christians. Thier religion isn't just some "piece of shit excuse for a religion" - that is just YOUR perspective. I disagree with that perspective, as do many others here in America. After all, our country is one of the more diverse on the entire planet.

As for your whole deal with superiority, I guess to put an end to it I'll even AGREE with you that our way of life is in many ways superior to that of Arab countries. At the same time, I don't feel that gives us the right to impose upon thier lifestyle. Especially on religious grounds.

Yeah, Gunakor, you pretty much nailed it--even though you misspelled "despicable". If somebody spewed out a line of blatant racism--which Freedom of Speech certainly allows, wouldn't you characterize that as "despicable"? And if somebody denied the Holocaust or even more extreme, said Hitler had the right idea, that person would absolutely be free to say it. However, I assume you would view it as "despicable", right? Are you getting the idea? Or do I need more examples. IMO, denial of the greatness and superiority of the American Way or claiming some other crap way of life is morally equivalent to our own fits right in with those examples--more so, because it is our own ox being gored.

And since you were rational enough in your last paragraph to come around to the right point of view about American superiority, I will throw you a bone too. Yes, in the strictest legal sense, we don't have a right to impose good things on the people of countries by regime change or whatever. However, when you are dealing with forces of evil who don't play by any civilized rules, why should we handicap ourselves with legalities. I have no problem at all with "Might makes Right"--when the side with the Might actually IS Right. And I basically dare anyone to claim that America isn't--and hasn't been for a century or more now.

Oh yeah, religious "diversity": If any old crap belief is just as good as any other--which seems to be what you are saying, then NONE of those beliefs are any good--which is tantamount to atheism (which you also misspelled).

[Freak Out]

Post-War Suicides May Exceed Combat Deaths, U.S. Says

By Avram Goldstein

May 5 (Bloomberg) -- The number of suicides among veterans of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may exceed the combat death toll because of inadequate mental health care, the U.S. government's top psychiatric researcher said.

Community mental health centers, hobbled by financial limits, haven't provided enough scientifically sound care, especially in rural areas, said Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, Maryland. He briefed reporters today at the American Psychiatric Association's annual meeting in Washington.

Insel echoed a Rand Corporation study published last month that found about 20 percent of returning U.S. soldiers have post- traumatic stress disorder or depression, and only half of them receive treatment. About 1.6 million U.S. troops have fought in the two wars since October 2001, the report said. About 4,560 soldiers had died in the conflicts as of today, the Defense Department reported on its Web site.

Based on those figures and established suicide rates for similar patients who commonly develop substance abuse and other complications of post-traumatic stress disorder, ``it's quite possible that the suicides and psychiatric mortality of this war could trump the combat deaths,'' Insel said.

Post-traumatic stress disorder, known as PTSD, is the failure to cope after a major shock, such as an auto accident, a rape or combat, Insel said. PTSD may remain dormant for months or years before it surfaces, and in about 10 percent of cases people never recover, he said.

Difficult to Predict

``We don't yet know how to predict who is going to be the person to be most concerned about,'' Insel said.

The Pentagon didn't dispute Insel's remark.

``The department takes the issue of suicide very seriously, and one suicide is too many,'' said spokeswoman Cynthia Smith in an e-mail.

The department has expanded efforts to encourage soldiers and veterans not to feel stigmatized if they seek mental health treatment, Smith said.

Soldiers who'd been exposed to combat trauma were the most likely to suffer from depression or PTSD, the Rand report said. About 53 percent of soldiers with those conditions sought treatment during the past year. Half of those who got care were judged by Rand researchers to have received inadequate treatment.

Failure to adequately treat the mental and neurological problems of returning soldiers can cause a chain of negative events in the lives of affected veterans, the researchers said. About 300,000 soldiers suffer from depression or PTSD, the report said.

Treatment Options

Researchers aren't sure whether it's appropriate to treat such patients with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, a class of medications that include Prozac, and other anti- depressants, Insel said. His institute is examining that question and novel treatments for PTSD, including using so-called virtual reality technology.

The psychiatric association reported last week that a survey of 191 military members and their spouses found 32 percent said their duty hurt their mental health, and six in 10 believed seeking treatment would damage their careers.

More than 15,000 psychiatrists are attending the professional group's meeting.

To contact the reporter on this story: Avram Goldstein in Washington at agoldstein1@bloomberg.net.

When I was in the service (years ago....) if you even mentioned going to the shrink you were labeled a pussy but I know from family that were in recently or are in now there is a huge push to get people to request treatment...but old attitudes are hard to break.

[MJZiggy]

What aggression?

So a FERVENT BELIEF IN THE LITERAL TRUTH OF CHRISTIANITY IS EXTREMISM NOW? Is that REALLY your position?

You know very well I didn't call you extremist. Please do not try to deny that there are Christian extremists in the world.

Please remember our discussion on the religious right, because this kind of stuff is part of what I was referring to. I wonder what Jesus' stance in these discussions might have been...

[Gunakor]

If somebody spewed out a line of blatant racism--which Freedom of Speech certainly allows, wouldn't you characterize that as "despicable"?

Sure, I can agree with you there. So when you say that all Muslims are inherently evil, or that any religion other than Christianity is just a piece of shit excuse for a religion, you can understand how people could view that as despicable as well, right? I mean, it's akin to racism as far as I'm concerned. So to you placing an evil stereotype on a certain race is despicable, but placing an evil stereotype on a certain religion or a certain culture is okay?

Oh yeah, religious "diversity": If any old crap belief is just as good as any other--which seems to be what you are saying, then NONE of those beliefs are any good--which is tantamount to atheism (which you also misspelled).

No, you don't get it do you. I'm suggesting that ALL of these beliefs are good, depending on what you choose to believe in. I'm not saying everybody believes in nothing(atheism), I'm saying everybody believes in something different(diversity). What I'm suggesting is completely on the other end of the spectrum as what you are interpreting. What I'm saying is that NO religion is just a piece of shit excuse. Just because I don't worship Allah doesn't mean I hate Muslims...

[texaspackerbacker]

What aggression?

So a FERVENT BELIEF IN THE LITERAL TRUTH OF CHRISTIANITY IS EXTREMISM NOW? Is that REALLY your position?

You know very well I didn't call you extremist. Please do not try to deny that there are Christian extremists in the world.

Please remember our discussion on the religious right, because this kind of stuff is part of what I was referring to. I wonder what Jesus' stance in these discussions might have been...

Ziggy, I didn't say you accused me, specifically, of being an extremist. What I said is that you clearly implied that it is extremism--and the Christians are extreme--to believe in the absolute literal truth of Biblical Christianity, and thus, the falsehood of all other religions. Do you or don't you see THAT as extreme? If THAT is now considered extreme, it just shows how demonically effective the left has been at propagandizing people.

FreakOut, come back when those ridiculous doom and gloom predictions come true. I talk to returning troops all the time, and they consider all this stupidity about depression, etc. to be totally laughable--purely the product of the anti-war/anti-military idiocy of the so-called experts whining about such things.

[texaspackerbacker]

If somebody spewed out a line of blatant racism--which Freedom of Speech certainly allows, wouldn't you characterize that as "despicable"?

Sure, I can agree with you there. So when you say that all Muslims are inherently evil, or that any religion other than Christianity is just a piece of shit excuse for a religion, you can understand how people could view that as despicable as well, right? I mean, it's akin to racism as far as I'm concerned. So to you placing an evil stereotype on a certain race is despicable, but placing an evil stereotype on a certain religion or a certain culture is okay?

Oh yeah, religious "diversity": If any old crap belief is just as good as any other--which seems to be what you are saying, then NONE of those beliefs are any good--which is tantamount to atheism (which you also misspelled).

No, you don't get it do you. I'm suggesting that ALL of these beliefs are good, depending on what you choose to believe in. I'm not saying everybody believes in nothing(atheism), I'm saying everybody believes in something different(diversity). What I'm suggesting is completely on the other end of the spectrum as what you are interpreting. What I'm saying is that NO religion is just a piece of shit excuse. Just because I don't worship Allah doesn't mean I hate Muslims...

Actually, Gunakor, I said "you would consider despicable .....". I didn't say anything about what I thought--except that bad-mouthing and disrespecting America is far worse.

On your second point, it's YOU that don't get it. If you think ALL beliefs are good, then you are denying that ONE is the CORRECT ONE--which basically means you are denying the correctness of all those which claim to be THE correct religion--which really is tantamount to atheism because you are saying religion is nothing more than feel-good psycho-babble--the opiate of the people, in the words of Marx.

And did I anywhere that Muslims are INHERENTLY evil? Hell no! What I said is that Muslims are much more apt to buy the beliefs of their religion than Christians or anybody else--and that their CRAP EXCUSE FOR A RELIGION IS IN FACT, THOROUGHLY EVIL. If you don't believe THAT, then how would YOU describe the barbarism, tyranny, sexism, ignorance, and genocide which are institutionalized in the Muslim religion?

[Harlan Huckleby]

their CRAP EXCUSE FOR A RELIGION IS IN FACT, THOROUGHLY EVIL. If you don't believe THAT, then how would YOU describe the barbarism, tyranny, sexism, ignorance, and genocide which are institutionalized in the Muslim religion?

If such evil is institutionalized in their religion, then how do you explain that Islamic violent behavior has reared its head mostly in the last 25 years or so? Historically, Christians have been far more war-like and violent.

We had this discussion once before, and your answer was that mass violence from the western world was "back in the olden days." (I guess Hitler and Stalincount as the olden days. )

Elaborate on this "institutionalized" theory. When do you figure that happened?

[Gunakor]

Actually, Gunakor, I said "you would consider despicable .....". I didn't say anything about what I thought--except that bad-mouthing and disrespecting America is far worse.

You call any other religion besides Christianity a piece of shit religion. That is a stereotype. Racisim is a stereotype. Sexism is a stereotype. They are all the same. As it relates to America, Christianity does not go hand in hand with America. America is diverse in religious beliefs. Refusing to convert to Christianity is not an insult to America.

In any case, don't try to deflect the discussion away from what I asked just so that you don't have to explain yourself. Answer the question. You are wholly against racism and sexism, that much I get. But you don't feel labelling religions with nasty stereotypes is just as evil as labelling races and sexes with nasty stereotypes?

Now, when you answer that, don't give an answer to a question I didn't ask - i.e. pointing out the bad mouthing of America. What I am asking you is your feeling twoards stereotypes, and if you feel it is okay in one instance but despicable in another. Because it isn't ALL Muslims that are bad mouthing America. There are many Muslims that harbor no ill will twoards America. There are many Christians who do bad mouth America. The stereotype itself is every bit as wrong as a racist or sexist stereotype.

On your second point, it's YOU that don't get it. If you think ALL beliefs are good, then you are denying that ONE is the CORRECT ONE--which basically means you are denying the correctness of all those which claim to be THE correct religion--which really is tantamount to atheism because you are saying religion is nothing more than feel-good psycho-babble--the opiate of the people, in the words of Marx.

You cannot prove to me that the Bible is entirely non-fictional, and 100% historically accurate. You cannot therefore state as fact that Christianity is the one and only correct religion. Being a Christian does not make you superior to those who are not Christian. I know I will never be able to convince you of that, because acceptance of others and equal rights and such just aren't a part of your personality. You truly DO believe that your shit doesn't stink as bad as the rest of ours does. I hope that arrogance doesn't come back to bite you in the ass one day...

And did I anywhere that Muslims are INHERENTLY evil? Hell no! What I said is that Muslims are much more apt to buy the beliefs of their religion than Christians or anybody else--and that their CRAP EXCUSE FOR A RELIGION IS IN FACT, THOROUGHLY EVIL. If you don't believe THAT, then how would YOU describe the barbarism, tyranny, sexism, ignorance, and genocide which are institutionalized in the Muslim religion?

Well, maybe not in those specific terms. But you implied very strongly that all Muslims are evil based upon the religion they worship. You can word it any way you'd like, but it's clear as day what you meant. And, no, the Muslim religion is not throughly evil. The Muslim RADICALS that you see on TV are thoroughly evil, but they are less motivated by the Koran than they are by thier own personal agendas. They are fanatics, nothing more.

True Muslims denounce thier despicable acts. True Muslims are a peaceful people who long for knowledge, not violence. You should go out and mingle with a few of them. There are many living right here in America. They are incredible people. They would be more than happy to enlighten you to the TRUE Muslim Way. I wish that you could sit down with them and have a civil open-minded discussion about the true teachings and values of Islam. Unfortunately, I couldn't see you giving them 2 seconds of your time before you called them tyrants, and sexists, and barbarians, and above all liars. You are too set in your own beliefs. So it's really not worth arguing about I suppose.