Moktada al-Sadr, Emperor of Iraq

[woodbuck27]

WOW! This thread is HOT!!!

[texaspackerbacker]

their CRAP EXCUSE FOR A RELIGION IS IN FACT, THOROUGHLY EVIL. If you don't believe THAT, then how would YOU describe the barbarism, tyranny, sexism, ignorance, and genocide which are institutionalized in the Muslim religion?

If such evil is institutionalized in their religion, then how do you explain that Islamic violent behavior has reared its head mostly in the last 25 years or so? Historically, Christians have been far more war-like and violent.

We had this discussion once before, and your answer was that mass violence from the western world was "back in the olden days." (I guess Hitler and Stalincount as the olden days. )

Elaborate on this "institutionalized" theory. When do you figure that happened?

It's not all that complicated, Harlan.

The Christian violence, etc. you refer to--unless you go back to the REALLY olden days--is in spite of the Christian religion, while the Muslim violence, etc. is because of the religion.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't set Hitler and Stalin up as religious icons--atheistic Communism and Nazism which was essentially void of religion (Hitler didn't kill Jews for religious reasons so much as because they were the "haves" in his class and ethnic warfare scenario). The only modern example I can think of with Christians is Northern Ireland, and arguably, even that didn't have much religious belief behind it.

Muslim, on the other hand, in the present or very recent past, have been barbaric and murderous across northern Africa toward Christians, in Kashmir toward Hindu, as well as in places like Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines--and that's just the violence and barbarism toward others. What they have done to other Muslims for religious reasons is on display in just about every Muslim dominated country in the world. And that's not even mentioning the genocide of Israel, which if you took a poll of all Muslims, would probably be favored by 80 or 90% of them.

You're oozing with that old liberal standby, "moral equivalence", Harlan, but it just isn't there.

[texaspackerbacker]

Actually, Gunakor, I said "you would consider despicable .....". I didn't say anything about what I thought--except that bad-mouthing and disrespecting America is far worse.

You call any other religion besides Christianity a piece of shit religion. That is a stereotype. Racisim is a stereotype. Sexism is a stereotype. They are all the same. As it relates to America, Christianity does not go hand in hand with America. America is diverse in religious beliefs. Refusing to convert to Christianity is not an insult to America.

In any case, don't try to deflect the discussion away from what I asked just so that you don't have to explain yourself. Answer the question. You are wholly against racism and sexism, that much I get. But you don't feel labelling religions with nasty stereotypes is just as evil as labelling races and sexes with nasty stereotypes?

Now, when you answer that, don't give an answer to a question I didn't ask - i.e. pointing out the bad mouthing of America. What I am asking you is your feeling twoards stereotypes, and if you feel it is okay in one instance but despicable in another. Because it isn't ALL Muslims that are bad mouthing America. There are many Muslims that harbor no ill will twoards America. There are many Christians who do bad mouth America. The stereotype itself is every bit as wrong as a racist or sexist stereotype.

On your second point, it's YOU that don't get it. If you think ALL beliefs are good, then you are denying that ONE is the CORRECT ONE--which basically means you are denying the correctness of all those which claim to be THE correct religion--which really is tantamount to atheism because you are saying religion is nothing more than feel-good psycho-babble--the opiate of the people, in the words of Marx.

You cannot prove to me that the Bible is entirely non-fictional, and 100% historically accurate. You cannot therefore state as fact that Christianity is the one and only correct religion. Being a Christian does not make you superior to those who are not Christian. I know I will never be able to convince you of that, because acceptance of others and equal rights and such just aren't a part of your personality. You truly DO believe that your shit doesn't stink as bad as the rest of ours does. I hope that arrogance doesn't come back to bite you in the ass one day...

And did I anywhere that Muslims are INHERENTLY evil? Hell no! What I said is that Muslims are much more apt to buy the beliefs of their religion than Christians or anybody else--and that their CRAP EXCUSE FOR A RELIGION IS IN FACT, THOROUGHLY EVIL. If you don't believe THAT, then how would YOU describe the barbarism, tyranny, sexism, ignorance, and genocide which are institutionalized in the Muslim religion?

Well, maybe not in those specific terms. But you implied very strongly that all Muslims are evil based upon the religion they worship. You can word it any way you'd like, but it's clear as day what you meant. And, no, the Muslim religion is not throughly evil. The Muslim RADICALS that you see on TV are thoroughly evil, but they are less motivated by the Koran than they are by thier own personal agendas. They are fanatics, nothing more.

True Muslims denounce thier despicable acts. True Muslims are a peaceful people who long for knowledge, not violence. You should go out and mingle with a few of them. There are many living right here in America. They are incredible people. They would be more than happy to enlighten you to the TRUE Muslim Way. I wish that you could sit down with them and have a civil open-minded discussion about the true teachings and values of Islam. Unfortunately, I couldn't see you giving them 2 seconds of your time before you called them tyrants, and sexists, and barbarians, and above all liars. You are too set in your own beliefs. So it's really not worth arguing about I suppose.

Calling every religion other than Christianity a piece of shit religion is a FACT--or at least what I fervently believe to be a fact. And as little as 2 or 3 decades ago, that concept wouldn't have even been controversial in this country. If in fact, it is now, that is a tribute to the effectiveness--and rottenness--of the propaganda of the left-biased media, education establishment, and entertainment community--the sinister promotion of idiotic multi-culturalism and moral equivalence.

While we obviously don't have a state religion, and do have Freedom of Religion, religious diversity in this country basically means a very diverse bunch of different kinds of Christianity, and maybe Judaism thrown in. That certainly doesn't mean that wrongheaded followers of any old piece of crap religion don't have the benefit of our glorious Freedom of Religion. But it does mean they should be recognized for what they are--either benignly or deleteriously contrary to the true and dominant religion in this country.

And if you want to deny the literal truth of the Bible or be an atheist, or whatever, you are certainly free to have those beliefs--or lack of them--too. It's not a matter of superiority. It's a matter of one belief being true and the others being false. This CRAP being pushed that all beliefs are nice and equivalent or all beliefs are equally false--the two concepts amount to the same thing--is simply bogus. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong, more accurately, somebody is right and everybody else is wrong. It's as simple as that.

You said true Muslims denounce all those despicable acts? Then what percentage of Muslims would you estimate to be "true"? 1%? 2%? Maybe 3% tops? And there's a reason for those low percentages: The badness is institutionalized--much of the tyranny, sexism, genocide, ignorance, and barbarism is in the Koran, and virtually all of it is promoted by virtually all of the Muslim clergy.

[Gunakor]

Calling every religion other than Christianity a piece of shit religion is a FACT--or at least what I fervently believe to be a fact.

"Or at least what I fervently believe to be a fact". Well, I'm glad that you've come around to the fact that it's simply what YOU believe to be a fact. Which simply means that it is your opinion, and cannot be called fact at all.

While we obviously don't have a state religion, and do have Freedom of Religion, religious diversity in this country basically means a very diverse bunch of different kinds of Christianity, and maybe Judaism thrown in.

Many religions are practiced in this country Tex. They aren't just a bunch of different branches of Christianity. There must not be any Muslims or Hindus or Scientologists living in Texas, but there are plenty of them up here in Wisconsin.

But it does mean they should be recognized for what they are--either benignly or deleteriously contrary to the true and dominant religion in this country.

It's not simply about the FREEDOM of religion here in America Tex. It's about religious EQUALITY. Which means there IS no dominant religion. I will agree with you that there are more Christians in America than any other religion, but that does not make Christians dominant or superior to thier neighbor who is not Christian.

And if you want to deny the literal truth of the Bible or be an atheist, or whatever, you are certainly free to have those beliefs--or lack of them--too. It's not a matter of superiority. It's a matter of one belief being true and the others being false. This CRAP being pushed that all beliefs are nice and equivalent or all beliefs are equally false--the two concepts amount to the same thing--is simply bogus. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong, more accurately, somebody is right and everybody else is wrong. It's as simple as that.

Tex, the definition of an atheist is one who does not believe in ANY religion. Muslims are not atheists, nor are Jews or Hindus or Buddhists or followers of any other religion. Just because you don't practice Christianity does not make you an atheist.

Again, prove to me that Christianity is the one and only true religion. Show me factual evidence that proves beyond a doubt that all other religions are false.

You realize, Tex, that your percieved superiority as a Christian is simply due to the crap being pushed by the Christian church. You being decieved by the Bible is the same as a Muslim being decieved by the Koran. You cannot prove the Bible to be fact, so you cannot convince any American with a brain that Christianity is the one and only true and correct religion simply because that's what you choose to believe in.

You said true Muslims denounce all those despicable acts? Then what percentage of Muslims would you estimate to be "true"? 1%? 2%? Maybe 3% tops? And there's a reason for those low percentages: The badness is institutionalized--much of the tyranny, sexism, genocide, ignorance, and barbarism is in the Koran, and virtually all of it is promoted by virtually all of the Muslim clergy.

Tex, I know Muslims. I went to school with several at UWM. We have regulars that come into the hotel I now work for. We have regular discussions on this topic, so I can guarantee that I know more about Islam than you do. You only know what you see on TV. You have never spoken with a Muslim, you have never studied the religion, and you know nothing about it except for the radicals you see on TV.

Put it like this Tex. The current leaders of Iraq that you so fervently believe can set up and effectively run an American-style democracy are in fact MUSLIM. The Iraqi civilians that pose no threat to America and are, by your own accord, happy that America had stepped in and removed the tyrant Saddam Hussein from power... THEY are also Muslim. True, peaceful, non-violent MUSLIMS. Maybe 5% are radicals, and they are the ones getting all the face time on CNN. So you believe this 5% you see on CNN represent the other 95% who you don't see? That's not the case at all Tex. True Muslims, both here AND in Iraq, denounce the violent acts committed by radicals such as AQ and the Taliban.

[texaspackerbacker]

Gunakor, you just blew your chances all to hell for having any shot at the Constitutional high ground.

"IT'S NOT ABOUT FREEDOM OF RELIGION"--your words!

Well, it sure as hell ain't about "equality". There's not a shred about religious "equality" in the Constitution. We were then and are now a Christian nation--WITH a DOMINANT religion, accompanied by the unintended consequence of the founding fathers in allowing the practice of any old piece of crap excuse for religion that comes along--the establishment of Freedom of Religion was meant to accomodate the various shades of Catholic and Protestant believers that existed in the early days, and maybe to tolerate an occasional Jew that came along. You need only to consider how they handled Indian tribal religions to understand what they thought of off-the-wall and wrongheaded pagan things--or maybe the Salem witch trials too.

Christianity is THE DOMINANT religion in this country not only because it is THE true and correct religion, but because it is the MAJORITY religion. And majority rule is the hallmark of our Constitution--along with tolerance, of course, of the usually rotten and wrong minorities.

NEVER confuse tolerance of multi-cultural CRAP for equality.

As for Muslims, yeah, I've known a few Muslims who were pretty decent people too--also very successful practicers of the American free enterprise system. The fact is, though, that by percentage, my Muslim friends, your Muslim friends, and all Muslims in general are MUCH more likely to be DEVOUT followers of the dogma of their religion than most Christians, or Hindus, Buddhists, or any other religion. And that religious dogma, strongly promoted by inflexible Muslim clerics, preaches TYRANNY, SEXISM, IGNORANCE, BARBARISM, HATE, and GENOCIDE.

While your 5% figure may be pretty accurate, maybe even on the high side for people out there strapping on suicide bombs or otherwise committing acts of terror, you'd be damn lucky to find 5% who do NOT enthusiastically support the evils I mentioned above. Why? Because those evils are institutionalized in the miserable excuse for a religion that they practice.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Muslim, on the other hand, in the present or very recent past, have been barbaric and murderous across northern Africa toward Christians, in Kashmir

You dodged the question. If violence is institutionalized in ISlam, why has it not historically been more violent than people of other faiths?

[texaspackerbacker]

Muslim, on the other hand, in the present or very recent past, have been barbaric and murderous across northern Africa toward Christians, in Kashmir

You dodged the question. If violence is institutionalized in ISlam, why has it not historically been more violent than people of other faiths?

Who says it hasn't? Sharia Law is nothing new.It has always been practiced, and the whole Muslim expansion, from the 600s on to the slave merchants on to the Turkish Empires on down to the present has ALWAYS been characterized by TYRANNY, IGNORANCE, SEXISM, GENOCIDE, BARBARISM, etc.

Through much of that time period, Europeans/Christian areas didn't have much contact with Muslims and probably weren't much less barbaric themselves, but that doesn't lessen the fact that Muslims were that way. It just makes that time period a lot less relevant--nothing more than a bogus straw for you to try and grasp in defending the indefensible.

The recent time period, when Christianity and basically the whole rest of the world has progressed beyond those evils, while Muslims continue to embrace them, THAT is the relevant time and fact.

[Harlan Huckleby]

the whole Muslim expansion, from the 600s on to the slave merchants on to the Turkish Empires on down to the present has ALWAYS been characterized by TYRANNY, IGNORANCE, SEXISM, GENOCIDE, BARBARISM, etc.

you believe what you want to believe.

[texaspackerbacker]

the whole Muslim expansion, from the 600s on to the slave merchants on to the Turkish Empires on down to the present has ALWAYS been characterized by TYRANNY, IGNORANCE, SEXISM, GENOCIDE, BARBARISM, etc.

you believe what you want to believe.

What a cop-out!

That's historical fact. Dispute it if you can--but you can't!

[Harlan Huckleby]

That's historical fact. Dispute it if you can--but you can't!

The middle east was a RELATIVELY peaceful place prior to the 20th century, certainly as compared to Europe.

[Gunakor]

Gunakor, you just blew your chances all to hell for having any shot at the Constitutional high ground.

"IT'S NOT ABOUT FREEDOM OF RELIGION"--your words!

Well, it sure as hell ain't about "equality". There's not a shred about religious "equality" in the Constitution. We were then and are now a Christian nation--WITH a DOMINANT religion, accompanied by the unintended consequence of the founding fathers in allowing the practice of any old piece of crap excuse for religion that comes along--the establishment of Freedom of Religion was meant to accomodate the various shades of Catholic and Protestant believers that existed in the early days, and maybe to tolerate an occasional Jew that came along. You need only to consider how they handled Indian tribal religions to understand what they thought of off-the-wall and wrongheaded pagan things--or maybe the Salem witch trials too.

Dhristianity is THE DOMINANT religion in this country not only because it is THE true and correct religion, but because it is the MAJORITY religion. And majority rule is the hallmark of our Constitution--along with tolerance, of course, of the usually rotten and wrong minorities.

NEVER confuse tolerance of multi-cultural CRAP for equality.

As for Muslims, yeah, I've known a few Muslims who were pretty decent people too--also very successful practicers of the American free enterprise system. The fact is, though, that by percentage, my Muslim friends, your Muslim friends, and all Muslims in general are MUCH more likely to be DEVOUT followers of the dogma of their religion than most Christians, or Hindus, Buddhists, or any other religion. And that religious dogma, strongly promoted by inflexible Muslim clerics, preaches TYRANNY, SEXISM, IGNORANCE, BARBARISM, HATE, and GENOCIDE.

While your 5% figure may be pretty accurate, maybe even on the high side for people out their strapping on suicide bombs or otherwise committing acts of terror, you'd be damn lucky to find 5% who don NOT enthusiastically support the evils I mentioned above. Why? Because those evils are institutionalized in the miserable excuse for a religion that they practice.

Oh my gosh, Tex. This is going nowhere. You now are resorting to taking my words out of context and twisting them around to fit your side of the arguement. I said it isn't SIMPLY about Freedom of Religion - which means there is MORE to it than JUST freedom. There was a sentence following the one you quoted that has as much to do with the point I was making, but of course you wouldn't quote that one as well. Classy.

Do me a favor Tex. Instead of continually posting that Christianity is the one and only CORRECT religion, post your PROOF that Christianity is the one and only CORRECT religion. PROVE IT. PROVE that it is more than just YOUR opinion - that it is FACT. FACTS can be proven or disproven. You sir cannot prove or disprove religion.

Oh and Tex, NEVER confuse EQUALITY for TOLERANCE. At least up here in Wisconsin, we actually RESPECT others instead of simply TOLERATING them. I don't know how things work in Texas (it's beginning to sound like a terribly biased culture, one that I'd never want to encounter), but up here people really do acknowlege equality and respect those who are different than us.

You'd be hard pressed to find 5% of Iraqi citizens that weren't in fact living in fear of AQ and the Taliban and other radical Muslim groups. I mean, when the bombs go off, innocent Muslims die alongside Americans. Christians and Muslims fear radicals the same.

You are a hardline Republican, so can you at least acknowlege that your boy GW has made it very clear to all those who would listen that he is NOT at war against Islam? That he is at war with TERRORISTS, not MUSLIMS. They are NOT one in the same, and even the Republicans you worship have said so.

Lastly, until you have spent at least an hour studying Islam (excluding time on CNN or any other media outlet, right or left), do not pretend to know what has been "institutionalized" in Islamic culture or religious beliefs. You DON'T know. That point has been made very clearly. When you make statements like "those evils are institutionalized in the miserable excuse for a religion that they practice" you come across as being every bit as ignorant as those you despise. EVIL is not institutionalized in Muslim culture.

[texaspackerbacker]

Maybe because it was OWNED by the British and French, ya think?

The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks were anything but peaceful; The Barbary pirates actually gave us the word "barbarism"; And the Muslim slave merchants probably weren't all that docile and gentle either.

[Freak Out]

Who is killing America? It sure as fuck isn't Islam...it's us. Were destroying ourselves. Greed, fear. slovenliness...its endless. Were borrowing money from who to do what? Were spending it where? Who is going to pay for it? And to top it all our great President has to go begging to the fucking Saudis to pump a little more so gas prices will go down. We invaded a country for this? Blame Islam or Al Qaeda or Saddam all you want but the problem starts right here at home.

Whoops...sorry for the rant in your religion thread. I'll go back to work now.

[texaspackerbacker]

Who is killing America? It sure as fuck isn't Islam...it's us. Were destroying ourselves. Greed, fear. slovenliness...its endless. Were borrowing money from who to do what? Were spending it where? Who is going to pay for it? And to top it all our great President has to go begging to the fucking Saudis to pump a little more so gas prices will go down. We invaded a country for this? Blame Islam or Al Qaeda or Saddam all you want but the problem starts right here at home.

Whoops...sorry for the rant in your religion thread. I'll go back to work now.

Somebody is killing America? Where? When? How?

I'd say, America, the people, America, the way of life, America, the dominant world power, etc. is ALIVE AND EXTREMELY WELL.

Greed and slovenliness? Hey, now your bad-mouthing MY minority group.

We have a RIGHT to be just as lazy and slovenly and comfort-loving and luxury -loving as we can get away with financially, and some of us wallow in that right. Ya got something against it?

[MJZiggy]

Maybe because it was OWNED by the British and French, ya think?

The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks were anything but peaceful; The Barbary pirates actually gave us the word "barbarism"; And the Muslim slave merchants probably weren't all that docile and gentle either.

The Christian slave merchants were docile and gentle? And Tex, earlier when I was referring to the Christian extremists, I was referring to anyone who blew anyone else up in England or Northern Ireland. Don't pretend they didn't exist and don't pretend they were peaceful and don't pretend it wasn't about religion. I have a hard time believing that it's what Jesus wanted them to do...