A hidden valley in Colorado

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, quality of care in certain countries like Thailand is better than here for surgery. A much better patient to nurse ratio.

Overseas: Proving once again your complete lack of knowledge on this subject.

Then head to Thailand and get your lobotomy revised. With those extra nurses, I'm sure they can soak up the drool a little better.

[hoosier]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

I'm not dismissing your argument because it involves Reagan, I'm questioning your logic because, frankly, it strikes me as illogical. You say you are concerned about the lack of sincere discussion between the opposing ends of the political spectrum in this country. I agree. But I would suggest that the chances for real dialogue are diminished, not increased, when we make claims that are based on poorly thought out examples or examples that appeal to the emotions. The Left is undoubtedly guilty of this as well the Right. The claim that doctors will start quitting in droves if we implement universal health care is one example of such an appeal to emotion; the story about the rich taking their marbles and going home (whether this means moving to Costa Rica or just pulling out of the market) is another such example. If you can provide real evidence that these are in fact significant trends or real possibilties, I will rethink my position. Until then I can only see these scenarios as bogeymen.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

Look at where income distribution has been going in this country over the past few decades: the rich are getting richer and the divide between rich and poor is getting larger and larger.

A few points:

'Rich getting richer' - The ranks of millionaires (which has grown rapidly - can't recall the exact number, but I think it it 1-3 million in the U.S.), is made up of people who, to the large part (about 70%) come from no money. That is, they are self made.

Rich and Poor: How are they defined? Doesn't the definition matter critically? I typically see factors like wages and total income. I don't see factors like services available factored in. In our society taxation flows strongly in one direction with taxes from 'the rich' going to social programs for 'the poor.' Who are the poor? Where do they live? How do they live? What opportunities do they have to get our of being poor.

Classes (mostly age). For 10 years of my life, I was 'the poor' - making less than 18K/year. Some of those years were in school and some were working in a low-paying job. I now make more, but personally am not 'the rich' (making 250K or more). People overwhelmingly do not stay in the same income group over the course of their lives. Many of 'the poor' become 'the rich.' - and at least 60-80% become much better off. Defining 'the poor' and 'the rich' by income completely ignores changing situations for individuals. By defining the poor by income, the poor will always be poor and the rich always rich. And since the country (at least up til now) kept getting richer, if you keep the definition of the poor the same, the rich will appear to be getting richer.

Rich getting richer: What does this mean? Using the water bucket analogy, Does it mean that the rich can pull their water from the poor side of the bucket, and leave it empty or the water level lower? Do the rich hide their money under the mattress? Maybe they buy some gold, but 'the rich' purchase and invest. Who benefits from their purchases and investments?

'Rich having a hard time with higher taxes' - Maybe not - especially the rich who have no new job income that can be taxed. But in terms of the economy, the rich having a 'hard time' means nothing except relative to what they contribute to job and job creation. If you make it harder for businesses to start businesses - drive down investment, tax productivity, that's a negative for everyone. For example, Obama's tax increase on 200-250K earners will hit small businesses (the businesses from 10-500 workers who really are the growth sector of the nation) very hard. These 'rich' businessmen/women will have to make hard choices about employment and expansion. Some of the larger ones may even move operations overseas where the tax rates are lower - perhaps even open a lobotomy clinic in Thailand.

[SkinBasket]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.

What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

[SkinBasket]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.

What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Never fear: The 'Doctors without Borders' delegation from Thailand is on it's way to treat the downtrodden folks in American who just cannot get decent care. They are bringing extra nurses and the curative leaves of the Hoan Ngoc tree.

[HowardRoark]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

I'm not dismissing your argument because it involves Reagan, I'm questioning your logic because, frankly, it strikes me as illogical. You say you are concerned about the lack of sincere discussion between the opposing ends of the political spectrum in this country. I agree. But I would suggest that the chances for real dialogue are diminished, not increased, when we make claims that are based on poorly thought out examples or examples that appeal to the emotions. The Left is undoubtedly guilty of this as well the Right. The claim that doctors will start quitting in droves if we implement universal health care is one example of such an appeal to emotion; the story about the rich taking their marbles and going home (whether this means moving to Costa Rica or just pulling out of the market) is another such example. If you can provide real evidence that these are in fact significant trends or real possibilties, I will rethink my position. Until then I can only see these scenarios as bogeymen.

Forget about it Bobby, it's just a thought experiment. Something we used to do in our country.

At what marginal tax rate do people with capital not put that capital at risk anymore because it's not worth it anymore?

I'm not going to take the time to see how much Reagan made, that's not the point.....plug the richest actor in 1965 into the question, make up a theoretical actor!

[Scott Campbell]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

I've known just short of a dozen med school applicants. I don't know any doctors. Turns out applying to med school doesn't make you a doctor. Sucks for them. And for your argument.

Of course they aren't docs...smart people who get into med school don't hang around with your type.

The point, which you can't deny is that med schools are hardly crying about filling open spots. There are no shortage of applicants and no shortage of good applicants to fill the school.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.

What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Are you slow. This isn't private costs. This is covered by anyone with a plan..united, bcbs, etc.

That is the future. Get ready.

[hoosier]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.

[HowardRoark]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.

Daj mi slobodu ili mi dajte smrt. Kad dečki trebaju nam pomoći izbrisati Vaše magarce, potražite nas u Hrvatskoj. Samo ne pitajte nas za pivo. Sretno.

[hoosier]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

Tangible? So you expect the rich to form some sort of coalition and call a press conference to announce they're leaving? When people get fed up, the won't say shit. They'll just take their money and leave.

Ok. Right after they finish their three-semester crash course in Spanish or Croatian. Have fun with that.

Daj mi slobodu ili mi dajte smrt. Kad dečki trebaju nam pomoći izbrisati Vaše magarce, potražite nas u Hrvatskoj. Samo ne pitajte nas za pivo. Sretno.

No slobodu for you today, Howie. You'll get nothing and like it!

[HowardRoark]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

You'll get nothing and like it!

Barem imaš ovaj dio desno. Želim ništa.

[SkinBasket]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.

What argument? I'm just surprised at how quickly you're willing to leave all your poor liberal comrades behind when you jump on a flight for Thailand for your medical care. Seems kind of elitist. Like you're not worried about the quality of domestic health care because you can afford to go elsewhere. Or are you saying that "once the stigma dissapates" your low income friends will pay the $10.00 they can afford on their heating bill that month, then pack their bags to join you on your flight to Thailand?

Are you slow. This isn't private costs. This is covered by anyone with a plan..united, bcbs, etc.

That is the future. Get ready.

Oh, so how is this plan to ship everyone to Taiwan funded? Or are the airlines carrying people for free? Since we're talking about the future, perhaps Scotty will just beam people there, saving the 2-4K in costs?