A hidden valley in Colorado

[Partial]

Dumbass its recruiters on craigslist.

There are plenty of small surgeries. Tons and tons. I'd argue there are far more minor surgeries than major.

I posted an article of the amount doctors are paying in. Where is your evidence other than get real? If an OBGYN is paying that, imagine how much a surgeon, etc is paying. You get real my friend.

Dumbass? You stated the PAs were billing..that implies they are doing the billing. That isn't recruiters.

As for billing..a quick perusal on miltown craigs..shows a 60 per hour. I searched under PA and Physi Asst. Nice try.

Small surgeries? Like what? Your pediatrician doesn't perform them. Derms do a bit. What minor surgeries are there besides moles, cysts, warts, eartubes, removal of thorns, injections, etc.

You have officially lost your mind.

Malpractice: First, dipshit...that was from 02. But, let's just use your article.

West Virginia obstetricians paid an average of $75,155 in 2001, while their colleagues next door in Kentucky were charged only $41,661.

Wow. You couldn't be selectively using info could you. The 200k was for South Florida...and the article stated.

Obstetricians, neurosurgeons, emergency physicians and other high-risk specialists have absorbed the brunt of the blow.

Florida is not average..it is way more costly there. But, nice try.

Now, how about my source..how about for anesthesia specialists? Oops, premiums dropping...average in 07 was 23,500.

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2007/10/average-malpractice-premiums-for.html

How about for Arizona?

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&subsectionID=114&articleID=54788

For family practice doctors, who were paying $18,241 annually, the rate reduction means they'll be paying $16,898 for an annual policy that buys them $1 million of liability insurance per year with a cap of three $1 million losses a year, Carland explained.

Game. Set. Match.

That's really shitty coverage.. 1 million? 3x a year? Your parents would be broke by now with that crappy coverage.

Sorry Ty. Why is Florida and my data selectively bad, yet yours, which is ridiculously low and shitty not the same?

[bobblehead]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

The fact is that currently, 25% of all doctors in this country weren't educated here. I see no problem with that. That is the free market. Why are you now complaining.

ignoring the rest of the post I'll say it again...when teddy kennedy decided that HMO's would be allowed to gain a market advantage (his words not mine) due to the large startup costs he changed things...it was no longer a free market. If we were to return to the free market I would have no problem with letting it play out...within 5 years everyone would have a cheap high deductible policy and a health care savings account.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.

You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Dumbass its recruiters on craigslist.

There are plenty of small surgeries. Tons and tons. I'd argue there are far more minor surgeries than major.

I posted an article of the amount doctors are paying in. Where is your evidence other than get real? If an OBGYN is paying that, imagine how much a surgeon, etc is paying. You get real my friend.

Dumbass? You stated the PAs were billing..that implies they are doing the billing. That isn't recruiters.

As for billing..a quick perusal on miltown craigs..shows a 60 per hour. I searched under PA and Physi Asst. Nice try.

Small surgeries? Like what? Your pediatrician doesn't perform them. Derms do a bit. What minor surgeries are there besides moles, cysts, warts, eartubes, removal of thorns, injections, etc.

You have officially lost your mind.

Malpractice: First, dipshit...that was from 02. But, let's just use your article.

West Virginia obstetricians paid an average of $75,155 in 2001, while their colleagues next door in Kentucky were charged only $41,661.

Wow. You couldn't be selectively using info could you. The 200k was for South Florida...and the article stated.

Obstetricians, neurosurgeons, emergency physicians and other high-risk specialists have absorbed the brunt of the blow.

Florida is not average..it is way more costly there. But, nice try.

Now, how about my source..how about for anesthesia specialists? Oops, premiums dropping...average in 07 was 23,500.

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2007/10/average-malpractice-premiums-for.html

How about for Arizona?

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&subsectionID=114&articleID=54788

For family practice doctors, who were paying $18,241 annually, the rate reduction means they'll be paying $16,898 for an annual policy that buys them $1 million of liability insurance per year with a cap of three $1 million losses a year, Carland explained.

Game. Set. Match.

That's really shitty coverage.. 1 million? 3x a year? Your parents would be broke by now with that crappy coverage.

Sorry Ty. Why is Florida and my data selectively bad, yet yours, which is ridiculously low and shitty not the same?

Shitty coverage: Says who? You? Are you now an expert on malpractice insurance as well. Is this one of your 7? LOL

Parents: Again you know nothing, My mother was NEVER sued. My dad was sued once and won. That is over 70 plus years combined.

Florida: Because the data was old, Florida is hardly like the rest of the country, etc.

Keep trying. I clearly posted figures that show that doctors for the most part arent' paying .5 of their salary to insurance.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.

You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

Poor supply doesnt' mean there are none. Just means there are less than in a big city. But, that has ALWAYS been the case. And, until you can show some sort of evidence that the problem is getting worse then all you are doing is speculating.

I can also speculate that rural doctors will increase as their pay will go up as there are less of them out there. Which, really isn't speculation as they do make more..in the field of OB/GYN.

You have yet to show one piece of evidence regarding rural doctors leaving or that they are doing so because of pay issues.

And, i'm quite confident that the market will adjust for those areas so that Sanjay will find it acceptable to live in Rhinelander.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.

You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

Poor supply doesnt' mean there are none. Just means there are less than in a big city. But, that has ALWAYS been the case. And, until you can show some sort of evidence that the problem is getting worse then all you are doing is speculating.

I can also speculate that rural doctors will increase as their pay will go up as there are less of them out there. Which, really isn't speculation as they do make more..in the field of OB/GYN.

You have yet to show one piece of evidence regarding rural doctors leaving or that they are doing so because of pay issues.

And, i'm quite confident that the market will adjust for those areas so that Sanjay will find it acceptable to live in Rhinelander.

Ohio is recruiting from overseas to fill vacancies for gps across the state - not just rural, but in Akron and Canton, for example. Psychiatric residencies across the nation are half full and are also recruiting foreign docs. On average, skill and training for foreign docs is not as good as those trained in U.S. But maybe you think Sanjay is capable of diagnosing and treating your narcissistic personality disorder, coming from a completely different culture with possibly 1-2 years in a U.S. residency. Good luck with that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

You and rand paint bleak pictures, yet the facts dont' support you. YOu can't produce any sort of factual proof, it is strictly anecdotal. Wow, i can do that as well.

You admitted that OB/Gyn were in poor 'supply' in rural areas. That's a factual proof and That's just a start. Do you really want to change incentive in America so that health care shifts dramatically overseas? How is that better?

Poor supply doesnt' mean there are none. Just means there are less than in a big city. But, that has ALWAYS been the case. And, until you can show some sort of evidence that the problem is getting worse then all you are doing is speculating.

I can also speculate that rural doctors will increase as their pay will go up as there are less of them out there. Which, really isn't speculation as they do make more..in the field of OB/GYN.

You have yet to show one piece of evidence regarding rural doctors leaving or that they are doing so because of pay issues.

And, i'm quite confident that the market will adjust for those areas so that Sanjay will find it acceptable to live in Rhinelander.

Ohio is recruiting from overseas to fill vacancies for gps across the state - not just rural, but in Akron and Canton, for example. Psychiatric residencies across the nation are half full and are also recruiting foreign docs. On average, skill and training for foreign docs is not as good as those trained in U.S. But maybe you think Sanjay is capable of diagnosing and treating your narcissistic personality disorder, coming from a completely different culture with possibly 1-2 years in a U.S. residency. Good luck with that.

I already pointed out the 25% of doctors are foreign born. this isn't a new trend..nor was i suggesting it only affects the rural areas.

Hmm, why are they recruiting GPs? Cause it is a low paying field and most doctors don't want to be in it. Should we artificially raise their salaries to encourage more to enter. Should we do this with internists as well?

Again, what is the point? The free market is working. Workers are free to move to where the jobs are....companies are free to hire whom they want or move to where they feel business is best.

Suddenly, it sounds like you are anti free market.

Somehow, i don't imagine seeing you crying out if well educated Indians were coming over here and teaching in our school system...because of the low pay.

As good: Again some evidence. Foreign born doctors who are educated outside of this country still have to do residencies here and take their boards.

Is it your position that every doctor educated here and practicing is great? C'mon.

Psychiatry: If they are as you say..why is that? There are a multitude of reasons...many people aren't seeing shrinks because they dont' need meds..there are psychologists, mental health counselors, family therapists, etc.

Could it be that there is a decreased need for them? Could it be that they haven't been successful in RECRUITING med school grads?

This article suggests many reasons...

Forced downsizings were almost all due to funding cuts by hospitals, universities, local or state governments, and/or by reductions in patient care income. Elective reductions were motivated by a wide variety of factors, most commonly actual or anticipated decreases in recruitment and the decision to not accept less qualified applicants. Other reductions resulted from more complicated structural departmental reorganizations, which were variably related to economic pressures. Reorganizations included integrating two formerly independent training programs, reorganizing the relationship of an academic department to its affiliates, shifting resources from inpatient services to outpatient sites, and/or closing hospital beds as part of a long-term hospital reconstruction plan.

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/127

And, here are the results of there survey:

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content-nw/full/22/2/127/T1

Is it your contention that soon you won't be able to lay your troubled head on a couch and rant about the injustices perpetrated by liberals.

Sanjay may not help me with my disorder, but i'm sure he is well qualified to administer shock treatment to you.

[Partial]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

[Tyrone Bigguns]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

Do you know how to read? That is a salary for a generalist. Not a urologist, surgeon, ENT, radiologist, cardiologist, etc.

Laughable is your inability to read. Oh, lord.

Try this one dipshit.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

[Partial]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

Do you know how to read? That is a salary for a generalist. Not a urologist, surgeon, ENT, radiologist, cardiologist, etc.

Laughable is your inability to read. Oh, lord.

Try this one dipshit.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/sal...n-salaries.htm

Outside of a few rare specialists (which really, how many can there be in one city? 1? ), most are not making more than 300 grand. It's the max for a reason big guy. Max != average.

Most of those with the higher income also are in the fields with the 200k+ malpractice insurance.

Again, you lose and you lose and you lose.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

I already pointed out the 25% of doctors are foreign born. this isn't a new trend..nor was i suggesting it only affects the rural areas.

Hmm, why are they recruiting GPs? Cause it is a low paying field and most doctors don't want to be in it. Should we artificially raise their salaries to encourage more to enter. Should we do this with internists as well?

Again, what is the point? The free market is working. Workers are free to move to where the jobs are....companies are free to hire whom they want or move to where they feel business is best.

Suddenly, it sounds like you are anti free market.

Somehow, i don't imagine seeing you crying out if well educated Indians were coming over here and teaching in our school system...because of the low pay.

As good: Again some evidence. Foreign born doctors who are educated outside of this country still have to do residencies here and take their boards.

Is it your position that every doctor educated here and practicing is great? C'mon.

Psychiatry: If they are as you say..why is that? There are a multitude of reasons...many people aren't seeing shrinks because they dont' need meds..there are psychologists, mental health counselors, family therapists, etc.

Could it be that there is a decreased need for them? Could it be that they haven't been successful in RECRUITING med school grads?

This article suggests many reasons...

Forced downsizings were almost all due to funding cuts by hospitals, universities, local or state governments, and/or by reductions in patient care income. Elective reductions were motivated by a wide variety of factors, most commonly actual or anticipated decreases in recruitment and the decision to not accept less qualified applicants. Other reductions resulted from more complicated structural departmental reorganizations, which were variably related to economic pressures. Reorganizations included integrating two formerly independent training programs, reorganizing the relationship of an academic department to its affiliates, shifting resources from inpatient services to outpatient sites, and/or closing hospital beds as part of a long-term hospital reconstruction plan.

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/127

And, here are the results of there survey:

http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content-nw/full/22/2/127/T1

Is it your contention that soon you won't be able to lay your troubled head on a couch and rant about the injustices perpetrated by liberals.

Sanjay may not help me with my disorder, but i'm sure he is well qualified to administer shock treatment to you.

I missed this response. There are a lot of good things in there. Look, physicians as a standard bearer for the kind of retreat from capitalism described in Atlas Shrugged is absurd (as is the retreat from society of producers described in 'shrugged' as well). People will retreat from certain things if they become less desirable, but they probably won't go to a shielded valley somewhere (they actually tried it in Vermont or New Hampshire and they couldn't get enough people to pledge). People like living in the real world.

But with respect to physicians, most docs go into medicine because they like treating patients, they like the prestige, and they like the money, I think mostly in that order. Docs I know are discouraged by the constant harassment of all the bureaucracy and the rules and regs, as well as the reduced compensation forced on them by negotiated contracts with insurance carriers. My thinking is that with more centralized control and government intrusion, the rates negotiated will get worse. Yes, there will be market adjustments, and I'm not really opposed in principle to having foreign physicians come in and treat patients in this country, but I don't want it to be because the profession becomes less inviting to top talent here and therefore declines in quality. I am concerned that the more government intrusion, the more likely this outcome.

[Scott Campbell]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

I take it Thailand doesn't figure among the places you'd move to if you decide you're fed up with tax rates in the US?

I suppose you think it'd be easier for you to compete in the marketplace if you eliminate all of societies over achievers. I got news for you. You can get rid of all of us and it won't matter a bit. You'll still continue under perform. Only then, you won't have us around to try and shift the blame to.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000025.html

The 75% mark is 166 grand. Far from the 400-700 Ty claims is merely "average".

Laughable broham/

Do you know how to read? That is a salary for a generalist. Not a urologist, surgeon, ENT, radiologist, cardiologist, etc.

Laughable is your inability to read. Oh, lord.

Try this one dipshit.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/sal...n-salaries.htm

Outside of a few rare specialists (which really, how many can there be in one city? 1? ), most are not making more than 300 grand. It's the max for a reason big guy. Max != average.

Most of those with the higher income also are in the fields with the 200k+ malpractice insurance.

Again, you lose and you lose and you lose.

Really? I guess those 150-200 radiologists in the greater phoenix area are a figment of my imagination. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Max: Doctors quickly achieve their max..within 7-10 years. Even if we use average..that is for plus 3 years...you are an idiot if you think that is where they stand after 10.

More to the point, you really don't understand how much doctors make. First, like any business that is incorporated, they pay themselves a salary. However, like businesses that have have profitible quarters they give themselves bonuses. They dont' just pay themselves on what they earn each week.

Secondly, many doctors have two income streams. Your standard radiologic group will have two streams...one, from reading the images, the second from the imaging centers themselves. So, when you talk salary, you aren't considering the business of the imaging center.

200K: Again, i already showed you fields that make more that pay less. You have one source for OB/GYN..and that was from florida.

The higher paying fields often don't have higher premiums. For example, your plastic surgeon performing breast augmentation will make a ton of dough but isn't involved in a field where the risk is high.

Don't bother responding, because you just appear more foolish with each post.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

I'm not going to waste much time blogging while I sit here in thailand, but I am going to make this post.....there is exaxtly ONE hospital here that I would consider going to for treatment. I enjoy myself here, but using it as a model or example in any arguement automatically diminishes the entire arguement in my eyes.

As far as money and talent fleeing the country goes....ask yourself what I might be doing here besides vacationing.

I take it Thailand doesn't figure among the places you'd move to if you decide you're fed up with tax rates in the US?

I suppose you think it'd be easier for you to compete in the marketplace if you eliminate all of societies over achievers. I got news for you. You can get rid of all of us and it won't matter a bit. You'll still continue under perform. Only then, you won't have us around to try and shift the blame to.

Never end a sentence in a preposition. You know, for an achiever, you don't write too good.

[Partial]

Ty, you have yet to provide an average on income. My sources say otherwise. The max is one person on the extremely high end. That means every single person except for one earns less than the max.

You have showed a poor example.

Why is Florida different besides you saying it is different? What is the reason?