Does the federal gov't bail out GM?

[Fosco33]

A small news item - but shows what's to come.

AmEx recently got in line for the gov't handout - altering themselves to be a bank... sure they have a tiny bank operation but give me a f-ing break.

[bobblehead]

I agree. At some point you have to let the businesses who have made bad deals or bad decisions fail. It's how the market is meant to work. Sure, it will be much worse off in the short run, but unless there are going to be SERIOUS changes all this is is throwing money at a problem that would just arise again further down the road.

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

patient: "Doctor, there is a bullet in me, take it out."

doctor pulls out scalpal. patient: "What are you going to do with that"

Doc: "cut through some tissue to get the bullet out"

Patient: "oh, well if you have to cut through some tissue and cause pain nevermind, leave it there"

[Harlan Huckleby]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

[SkinBasket]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

We don't have an auto industry. We have a union welfare industry that makes cars on the side.

[Freak Out]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

We don't have an auto industry. We have a union welfare industry that makes cars on the side.

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

[SkinBasket]

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

The auto industry will never recover until they're rid of the parasitic union. I have a couple of family members living off UAW union pensions. Ridiculous pensions.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating at all when I say it's a welfare industry that happens to make cars when they can. It simply is not a maintainable business model and we've been paying higher prices on lower quality US autos as a result. So yes, I'm against funding the UAW pension program with taxpayer dollars.

You can say what you will about how slow the automakers have been to respond to demand for hybrids and the like, but don't forget it was the same fickle customer base that was thundering for more tank-like SUVs less than a decade ago, so of course they focused on those models - to make money. It takes some time to R&D, develop, re-gear plants, and deploy entirely new models. Especially when swinging from an SUV to a light car/hybrid/alt fuel market. And instead of being flexible, the unions fight those changes every step of the way, because it means cutting obsolete jobs, job reassignments, plants closed, etc, etc.

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

[Freak Out]

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

The auto industry will never recover until they're rid of the parasitic union. I have a couple of family members living off UAW union pensions. Ridiculous pensions.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating at all when I say it's a welfare industry that happens to make cars when they can. It simply is not a maintainable business model and we've been paying higher prices on lower quality US autos as a result. So yes, I'm against funding the UAW pension program with taxpayer dollars.

You can say what you will about how slow the automakers have been to respond to demand for hybrids and the like, but don't forget it was the same fickle customer base that was thundering for more tank-like SUVs less than a decade ago, so of course they focused on those models - to make money. It takes some time to R&D, develop, re-gear plants, and deploy entirely new models. Especially when swinging from an SUV to a light car/hybrid/alt fuel market. And instead of being flexible, the unions fight those changes every step of the way, because it means cutting obsolete jobs, job reassignments, plants closed, etc, etc.

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

As I stated in another thread I hate having to pay for someones pension (especially a totally unrealistic one) when they have no obligation to do the same for me. That goes for State, Fed, Local, or private employees...AK has a huge issue right now with the unfunded State Employees pension fund...it's something like 30 billion in the hole.
The Auto makers and the UAW should have worked out a solution years ago but greed won out like it does in many labor situations and now the it's all coming back to bite them in the ass. Huge concessions have to be made by both sides if our auto industry is going to survive. The thought of these companies failing now scares me.
I would start calling or emailing your Congressional delegation now because it looks like they might start working on a bailout plan soon and we do not need the solution to be just throwing money at these clowns. What's the guys name who ran Home Depot..retired with 200 million in severance deals and is now running Chrysler I think? This guy wants our money? Enough is enough.

[bobblehead]

when people used to point to the short term pain of letting a failure business fail I liked to use this analogy.

Do you understand the consequences of allowing GM to fail?

Let me put it another way: do you think we can have a successful country without an auto industry?

I don't know the anwer to that question. I know we have our export strengths: pharmaceuticals, manufacturing technology, business services. But cars are such a HUGE chunk of human life and activity. IT would be like saying we are going to cede agriculture to foreign competition.

Do you know the consequences of taking that bullet out?? Blood flowing free, tissue being ravaged...serious trama....best to leave it in, festering until it kills the entire organism. heh, did I just describe the UAW??

[MJZiggy]

So you really just want to break a union. That's the bottom line for you.

The auto industry will never recover until they're rid of the parasitic union. I have a couple of family members living off UAW union pensions. Ridiculous pensions.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating at all when I say it's a welfare industry that happens to make cars when they can. It simply is not a maintainable business model and we've been paying higher prices on lower quality US autos as a result. So yes, I'm against funding the UAW pension program with taxpayer dollars.

You can say what you will about how slow the automakers have been to respond to demand for hybrids and the like, but don't forget it was the same fickle customer base that was thundering for more tank-like SUVs less than a decade ago, so of course they focused on those models - to make money. It takes some time to R&D, develop, re-gear plants, and deploy entirely new models. Especially when swinging from an SUV to a light car/hybrid/alt fuel market. And instead of being flexible, the unions fight those changes every step of the way, because it means cutting obsolete jobs, job reassignments, plants closed, etc, etc.

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

As I stated in another thread I hate having to pay for someones pension (especially a totally unrealistic one) when they have no obligation to do the same for me. That goes for State, Fed, Local, or private employees...AK has a huge issue right now with the unfunded State Employees pension fund...it's something like 30 billion in the hole.
The Auto makers and the UAW should have worked out a solution years ago but greed won out like it does in many labor situations and now the it's all coming back to bite them in the ass. Huge concessions have to be made by both sides if our auto industry is going to survive. The thought of these companies failing now scares me.
I would start calling or emailing your Congressional delegation now because it looks like they might start working on a bailout plan soon and we do not need the solution to be just throwing money at these clowns. What's the guys name who ran Home Depot..retired with 200 million in severance deals and is now running Chrysler I think? This guy wants our money? Enough is enough.

I thought someone yesterday proposed taking some of the 700 billion we've already set aside to give GM a bandaid?

[wist43]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

[MJZiggy]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

[digitaldean]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

Heard this today when he was talking about the budget issues in Milw. County....

It's spot on. GM tried to pare down some legacy costs in the last contract in 2007, but it is too little too late.

The American taxpayer can't keep bailing out EVERY firm. There will be many inside and outside the auto industry who would be hurt if GM failed. But GM could reorganize under bankruptcy protection laws.

I said it before, but we do run the risk of hyperinflation if we don't stop bailing out every financial institution, major corporation, etc.

[SkinBasket]

Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

Yeah. That never really happened. Now we're all paying the price. Unfortunately, the price may be higher if this isn't resolved before your man takes office.

[bobblehead]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

You voted obama right?? What are the odds his administration gives the old FU to the union? I see a BIG bailout benefitting said union in our future.

[packinpatland]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.