Does the federal gov't bail out GM?

[SkinBasket]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

[packinpatland]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

First things first.............I was never a 'soccer mom'.
I'm not so sure those little American-made Euro cars wouldn't pass the American crash test, I'll have to look into that. I do know they don't drive as fast over there, I'm only speaking of the UK.
I've been married 34 years. We've had 3 cars. Our first was an AMC Gremlin. We made it last 16 years. It was our 2nd vehicle for 12. The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.
But getting back to your statement about soccer moms seeing Al Gore's movie and trading in their SUVs.............you telling me they were the only ones driving those whopping huge cars?

[packinpatland]

As to the 'bail out' of GM...........could we talk Jack Welch out of retirement?

[MJZiggy]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

Smartcars are showing up here and getting more and more popular. Too bad they're not American.

[packinpatland]

Just wondering............why is it, when you drive around England you see so many really cool, small cars and when you look at the logo.........they're made by GMC, Ford or AMC? But they are not sold here.

Because until it became "cool" a few years back, no one wanted a car you can't fit anything but yourself into. Now that all you soccer moms saw Al Gore's movie and traded in your SUVs for Priuses, you're seeing more smaller cars.

I'm not sure those crummy little Euro cars would pass American crash testing either.

Smartcars are showing up here and getting more and more popular. Too bad they're not American.

Aren't they made by Mercedes?

[MJZiggy]

Yes.

[bobblehead]

ford made a car that gets 60 MPG (diesal). They did some market research and realized it wouldn't be profitable to try and sell it in america...it is debuting overseas soon.

[wist43]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

I'm with you on this. unless they come in and rearrange the management and give a big FU to the union. Treat everyone fairly which is what the unions were design to accomplish in the first place.

MJ, while I appreciate that you agree with me on this particular unConstitutional expenditure of funds - it illustrates my overriding point of principle.

I would argue that you do, in fact, support the bailout b/c you support the underlying premise that allows the bailout - that is to say, you support democracy, you support unlimited government.

Everybody's money is up for grabs, everybody's property is up for grabs, and ultimately everybody's rights are up for grabs. There's simply no stopping it b/c there is no Constitutional limitation - clever misinterpretations of the Constitution have removed any barriers to unlimited government.

You want your pet programs funded, Harlan wants his pet programs funded, the auto workers want their pet programs funded, the elderly want their pet programs funded... and, ultimately, everybody with their hand out will get what they want.

Of course all of this is unsustainable in the long run... the long run may not come for another 10 years, or if I'm lucky, another 40 years - I don't see how I deserve to suffer thru the inevitable collapse, I've understood the folly for many years, and have been trying to sound the alarm

That's the ugliness of the mob, the ugliness of democracy. "As long as I get mine..." mentality, and there's no stopping it now. Just as in all other historical democracies, people will simply vote themselves the wealth, means, and property of the productive and yet to be born generations.

Since the "Rule of Law" has been abandoned - and you agree with this, whether you realize it or not - there is no law to stop any of it. There is only the arguement.

And in case you haven't noticed, Washington is hemoraging money - but who cares, we can just print more, right??? And since your grand children, and great grand children can't vote to defend themselves, we can just go right on stealing their future, right???

So few people understand the principles of limited government laid out in the Constitution. Nothing standing in the way of the mob now. What's the national debt now??? About 10 trillion, and climbing???

Wait till the baby boomers retire enmasse, and more people are taking out of the system than putting in... that'll be a hootin' good time

Social Security, Medicare, bailouts, unfunded mandates... the math alone should make people logically move to rein in the FedGov - never minding the unConsitutionality arguement. Simply from a standpoint of math.

It's all unbelievable to me.

[SkinBasket]

But getting back to your statement about soccer moms seeing Al Gore's movie and trading in their SUVs.............you telling me they were the only ones driving those whopping huge cars?

I think they constituted the largest segment of customers who were driving SUVs because they were fashionable, not because they needed the HP or space.

That's probably an over generalization, I know, but I still have nightmares about constantly swerving out of the way of those broads on their cell phones with their designer sunglasses driving those mini-bus Excursions around while doing their hair.

[HowardRoark]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.

[packinpatland]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.

What you smiling at Howard?
My next car will be probably be a Volvo too............and now that it's owned by Ford, that shouldn't bother anyone, right?

[LL2]

Mark Belling had a great rant today about GM's union contracts and pension obligations...

Bailing em out now only delays the inevitable... it's only math, and pretty simple math at that. Businesses that are run poorly absolutely should be allowed to fail, they deserve to fail, their stockholders deserve to lose their money, and their employees deserve to lose their jobs - especially in this case, b/c a lot of GM's mess is due to unbelievable union contracts.

Never minding the sheer illegality of it... but, who cares about that???

Heard this today when he was talking about the budget issues in Milw. County....

It's spot on. GM tried to pare down some legacy costs in the last contract in 2007, but it is too little too late.

The American taxpayer can't keep bailing out EVERY firm. There will be many inside and outside the auto industry who would be hurt if GM failed. But GM could reorganize under bankruptcy protection laws.

I said it before, but we do run the risk of hyperinflation if we don't stop bailing out every financial institution, major corporation, etc.

You make some interesting points. There are some key factors the employees and retirees, unions, and the hyperinflation risk.

The first one is the HUGE domino affect the would result if 1 or 2 of the Big 3 go under.

"GM and Chrysler, through a network of 10,000 dealers, have combined U.S. sales of between $110 billion and $130 billion, a figure that approaches 1% of the U.S. gross domestic product. They employ an estimated 145,000 people in the United States at more than 110 assembly, stamping and parts plants. An additional 600,000 retirees depend on the two carmakers for health care and pensions."

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/general-motors-and-chrysler-on-the-brink.aspx

The above stat doesn't refer the the more than 2,100 business that are suppliers to the Big 3, so the above figures could be double if you add them in and many of them would go under if GM or Chrysler go under.

We could see unemployment hit 10% in this country if these dominoes fall, because all those lost jobs will hurt every store, coffee shop, etc.

The second part is that unions are a HUGE part of the problem.

"Should U.S. taxpayers really be providing billions of dollars to bailout companies (GM (GM), Ford (F) and Chrysler) that compensate their workers 52.5% more than the market (assuming Toyota wages and benefits are market), 54% more than management and professional workers, 132% more than the average manufacturing wage, and 157% more than the average compensation of all American workers?"

http://seekingalpha.com/article/105061-should-we-really-bail-out-the-big-three-automakers-with-73-20-per-hour-labor

How is it that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai are building cars successfully in THIS country and do not need a handout? The Big 3 have failed to adapt and deal with the unions. In my neck of the woods Caterpillar has a huge plant that employs thousands. I recall reading an article how CAT has over the years stonewalled the union and basically made them powerless. CAT is still a profitable company even though their market share has gone down (I know a handful of people tha work for CAT).

The third thing is hyperinflation. The government diluting the economy with tons of worthless paper to save wall street and the auto industry COULD work or it could sink our economy even further down a never ending spiral.

I just hope the government makes the right decision, because they are playing poker right now.

[HowardRoark]

The other two were/are Volvos. The present one is a 2000 model. And it'll probably last another 10+.

What you smiling at Howard?
My next car will be probably be a Volvo too............and now that it's owned by Ford, that shouldn't bother anyone, right?

It doesn't bother me at all. I own two Toyotas, that's not what makes me smile. It's the Volvos, right out of the Catechism

[MJZiggy]

I thought I read the other day that they were planning on taking this bailout money out of the money already allocated to the banking industry. Anyone know if that's true?

They are saying that they will buy an interest in the company and that the American people will be "owners." If I am an owner, I think I will call for an immediate restructuring of the company, its policies and payscales. If they balk, the question becomes "do you want a pay cut or unemployment? I also get the feeling that this is not the first time a union has driven a company out of business...

[Sammy4Pack]

The union position has always been they would rather the entire ship sink than they lose a few sailors. Well, the ships are sinking, and now they want to suck as much money out of the taxpayer as possible just like they sucked any profitability out of the auto industry before they go under.

Not true. Don't make a blanket statement about union position.

Several years back, when facing hard times in our industry, (not UAW, but a very large Union) the union asked for a vote from members. The vote was whether to put off a 3% raise for 6 (or maybe more months) to refrain from lay offs, or cutting positions entirely. The Union members voted to refrain from taking their raises to keep others employed. One month later come to find out, even in tough times, the top heavy management went ahead and took their 6% raise. What a kick in the ass. My buddy was management, heard it from him directly. He was embarrassed.