Ron Paul

[Tyrone Bigguns]

My opinion is this:

A Senator is very very unlikely to win the Presidency, the last one was Kennedy over 40 yrs ago. Why? His/her voting record comes under constant scrutiny and attack. The longer a person is a Senator, the less likely they can be voted in.

A Governor is much more likely to make it as president as their job is essentially a training ground for the job. They have to deal with the legislative and judicial bodies on laws, budgets and initiatives. They also do some direct, limited dealings with foreign countries. Just like the president, but only on a smaller scale.

As much as I like Obama, I don't think he'll beat Hillary, but then who gave Jesse Ventura a chance? Assuming Hillary makes it, she's too divisive of a candidate. You either love her or hate her. If she has to go toe to toe with Guiliani, I don't think she can win as Rudy has charisma and likeability in spades and he'll just need to keep hammering home that he got NYC through 9/11 and he'll get the votes, even if some are out of sympathy over what happened.

Again, just my opinion.

Giuliani likeable. Oh, lord, please stop making me laugh.

Do you really know anything about him. He is far from likable. Perhaps you should ask those from NYC about him. His career was over before 9/11.

My point about Guiliani and Hillary was that Hillary cannot beat an opponent with charisma who also has a solid background in politics. Guiliani has charisma and is a likeable guy and was an example. I should have been clearer on that.

Rudy is apparently dropping in the polls as is McCain with Romney gaining ground. But how will Romney's religious beliefs (Morman) play out with the Republican party faithful?

Again, Rudy isn't likable. Go back and do some research. He is not liked by those in NYC for the most part. They do appreciate his accomplishments, but there was never a lovefest for him.

Romney: It won't matter, as with Rudy. The hard core conserv/religious right aren't jumping on the train. Rudy is multi divorced, cheated on his wives, etc.

[hoosier]

[True. My fault. Though, Clinton wasn't impeached, he was acquitted by the senate.

Impeached doesn't mean convicted, it just means tried. One can be impeached and acquitted.

[Scott Campbell]

Though, Clinton wasn't impeached, he was acquitted by the senate.

Partial's statement may have been incomplete, but your statement is factually incorrect. Bill Clinton was impeached. By the House. He was later Acquitted by the Senate.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Again, Rudy isn't likable. Go back and do some research. He is not liked by those in NYC for the most part. They do appreciate his accomplishments, but there was never a lovefest for him.

Romney: It won't matter, as with Rudy. The hard core conserv/religious right aren't jumping on the train. Rudy is multi divorced, cheated on his wives, etc.

Then how is Rudy leading the GOP Presidential nominee race if he's not likable?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html

You don't get a 9% + point lead if you are not likable. He's not just running in NYC. It's his national appeal. Most people only know him from how he acted in and is portrayed after 9/11 which was extremely favorable.

I did my research to show he is currently likable. Now you go do some research to show me he's not liked nationwide.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Again, Rudy isn't likable. Go back and do some research. He is not liked by those in NYC for the most part. They do appreciate his accomplishments, but there was never a lovefest for him.

Romney: It won't matter, as with Rudy. The hard core conserv/religious right aren't jumping on the train. Rudy is multi divorced, cheated on his wives, etc.

Then how is Rudy leading the GOP Presidential nominee race if he's not likable?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html

You don't get a 9% + point lead if you are not likable. He's not just running in NYC. It's his national appeal. Most people only know him from how he acted in and is portrayed after 9/11 which was extremely favorable.

I did my research to show he is currently likable. Now you go do some research to show me he's not liked nationwide.

Really? You get a lead because you are running for the nomination and there isn't anyone better. Ever heard of the "lesser of 2 evils."

He also has a lead because he is known. He has had a platform since 9/11. I don't think 15% of the country even knew who romney was prior to announcing.

Lastly, he has a lead because of 9/11. He is perceived as a strong leader. Strong leaders don't necessarily have to be liked. Why don't you read The Prince by Machiavelli and get back to me. It is great to be loved, but if the choice comes down, better to be feared and respected.

Giuliani's main claim to fame is his conduct immediately after 9/11. Many still remember his TV press conference the night of the attacks, when a reporter asked how many casualties there would be. Giuliani had a magnificent answer: "More than we can bear." Compared to what President Bush was saying, that was Shakespeare.

Likable: Ok. You think women and christian conservatives are going to like the fact he has cheated on 2 wives and been divorced. That ain't likable.

His current wife is despised. Candidates are judged by their mate. Look at how the media and critics savaged Teresa Heinz Kerry.

It is still very early and most of the stuff hasn't come out, or been exploited yet.

1. Family issues. His own son isn't supporting him. Hard to win when your family is divided. He treated Hanover like dirt and his children won't help. Caroline has already pledged support to Obama.
2. Association with Bernard Kerik.
3. Business. He has made alot of cash off 9/11. You think the attacks on Edwards as a money grubbing attn were something, wait until the media gets after that. And, all the perks he demands for himself and Judith.
4. Loyalty to raping priest. 'nuff said
5. Liberal voting record, pro choice. Why don't you ask skeletal ann coulter about his record on: supporting abortion, pro gay marriage, opposing welfare reform, and opposing clinton impeachment, etc.
6. Temper.
7. IN favor of gun control. He has a legendary temper, is a bully, and doesn't like to be challenged. Good luck with that Rudy.

"He is not understood outside of New York City," said Ed Koch, the former mayor who evolved from a Giuliani supporter to critic. "He is quite correctly accorded great acclaim for his response to 9/11. Nobody could have done it better. (But) I don't believe he could have been elected dog catcher on 9/10."

Giuliani's popularity soared in the aftermath of the attacks. Now his hometown is divided, with 40 percent of people viewing him favorably and 51 percent unfavorably, a Siena Research Institute poll found in May (this was in 04)

"He's an explosive personality with a short temper and with little restraint. He attacks those who he feels are his enemies, and he sees a lot of enemies around him," Kirtzman said, author of "Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City." "It was often really harrowing to watch, but it was also extraordinarily effective."

He fought with: city officials including chief of police william bratton, his own party when he endorsed Democratic Gov. Mario Cuomo for re-election over Republican George Pataki, New York Magazine, which advertised itself as "possibly the only good thing in New York Rudy hasn't taken credit for." The mayor banned the ads from city buses, but the magazine sued and won.

And, what about being liked by minorities. Oops. Giuliani long refused to meet with the city's top black elected officials.

Can anyone say Amadou Diallo?

8. 9/11. Many feel Rudy exploited it for his own gain. Remember he tried extending his office term because of it, and tried putting judith in charge of dispensing funds to survivors.

Unions don't particularly like him. Witness the fireman's union.

“He’s not a leader,” said retired Deputy Chief Jim Riches, whose son was killed in the 2001 attack. “He’s running on 9/11, and it’s all a fallacy.”

Not to mention how they feel about the radio problems that he didn't solve after 93.

You clearly have no idea of what life for Rudy was prior to 9/11. He was not well liked by upstate republicans. He had to give up his senate run because of his messy divorce and prostate cancer.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Though, Clinton wasn't impeached, he was acquitted by the senate.

Partial's statement may have been incomplete, but your statement is factually incorrect. Bill Clinton was impeached. By the House. He was later Acquitted by the Senate.

You are of course correct. What i was trying to convey is that the process didn't go all the way thru.

1. Starts in house
2. before final vote, can vote to get judiciary comm to begin an impeachment inquiry
3.The Judiciary Committee may at this stage conduct hearings and draw up the articles of impeachment
4.Under the Constitution, the House must vote on articles of impeachment. A simple majority vote can impeach the president-"impeachment" is more of an indictment than a conviction- and send the case to the Senate for trial.
5. The Senate conducts the trial.

[Cheesehead Craig]

A very nice post Tyrone.

First off, I am not endorsing Rudy. Just want to clear that up.

You make my point as well. He's known and has a mystique about him in regards to 9/11. I cited that originally. But if he was such a hugely unlikable person as you make him out to be, he wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the polls.

Yes, we all read The Prince in college. Congratulations.

He's got way more personality than Hillary does, and there are loads of Americans who will simply vote on that alone. Prime example: See how our current president defeated Kerry and Gore.

Sure we look at the mate of the president. Is it an absolute make or break for the vast majority of the populous? Absolutely not. When it comes down to it, nobody cares.

1. Gee, a 17 yr old daughter rebelling? Stop the presses there.
2. So he worked with Kerik years ago. Big deal. Go around the streets of general America and ask 1000 people who he is. Doubt you'll find more than 3 and they may just vaguely remember his failed bid for Homeland Security.
3. There will be mud slinging from both sides on where $ came from. Nothing new here and again, people won't care as they will tune it out. Not like he made it using porn.
4. Loyalty to a childhood friend when he goes through a tough time is honorable. If nothing was yet proven in court, would you abandon a friend?
5. He doesn't simply adhere to the Republican stereo-typical mantra. That would gain liberal votes as he seems reasonable versus polarizing.
6. And?
7. Standard GOP pro-gun stance. Not sure how that's a detriment. When was your quote from if I may ask? Simply just want to get a frame of reference.
8. Prior to 9/11 is just about irrellivent now given it was 6 yrs ago as far as Rudy is concerned. It's conveniently forgotten about any issues he had. He can brush off any previous battles by now saying that after 9/11 he's realized how much working together means. He can milk it.

You're right. I didn't know Rudy prior to 9/11. I didn't live in NY and couldn't care what happened there on a daily governmental basis.


My whole point is this. The vast majority of knowledge that Americans have about Rudy is post 9/11. The hero. The leader. That's all they want to know. He's seen in a very positive light, hence his ratings as we both have agreed upon. He's got a lot of political capitol from that and in the last 6 years he's done no major gaffe to give the populous a different view.

His past is not so much of a big issue as you are portraying it I think. I certainly can appreciate your grasp of it and your "dislike" of him, to put it mildly. The general populous simply don't care about the past of many of our politicians (see Ted Kennedy) but they will still vote for him if he/she seems nice.

If GW can be elected twice with his embarrassment of a past and running primarily on some semblance of personality, Rudy can duplicate it as his past is not as bad and he has far more personality than GW does.

Fun discussion Tyrone. Thanks. This was definately educational.

[falco]

If GW can be elected twice with his embarrassment of a past and running primarily on some semblance of personality, Rudy can duplicate it as his past is not as bad and he has far more personality than GW does.

You make a good point.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

A very nice post Tyrone.

First off, I am not endorsing Rudy. Just want to clear that up.

You make my point as well. He's known and has a mystique about him in regards to 9/11. I cited that originally. But if he was such a hugely unlikable person as you make him out to be, he wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the polls.

Yes, we all read The Prince in college. Congratulations.

He's got way more personality than Hillary does, and there are loads of Americans who will simply vote on that alone. Prime example: See how our current president defeated Kerry and Gore.

Sure we look at the mate of the president. Is it an absolute make or break for the vast majority of the populous? Absolutely not. When it comes down to it, nobody cares.

1. Gee, a 17 yr old daughter rebelling? Stop the presses there.
2. So he worked with Kerik years ago. Big deal. Go around the streets of general America and ask 1000 people who he is. Doubt you'll find more than 3 and they may just vaguely remember his failed bid for Homeland Security.
3. There will be mud slinging from both sides on where $ came from. Nothing new here and again, people won't care as they will tune it out. Not like he made it using porn.
4. Loyalty to a childhood friend when he goes through a tough time is honorable. If nothing was yet proven in court, would you abandon a friend?
5. He doesn't simply adhere to the Republican stereo-typical mantra. That would gain liberal votes as he seems reasonable versus polarizing.
6. And?
7. Standard GOP pro-gun stance. Not sure how that's a detriment. When was your quote from if I may ask? Simply just want to get a frame of reference.
8. Prior to 9/11 is just about irrellivent now given it was 6 yrs ago as far as Rudy is concerned. It's conveniently forgotten about any issues he had. He can brush off any previous battles by now saying that after 9/11 he's realized how much working together means. He can milk it.

You're right. I didn't know Rudy prior to 9/11. I didn't live in NY and couldn't care what happened there on a daily governmental basis.


My whole point is this. The vast majority of knowledge that Americans have about Rudy is post 9/11. The hero. The leader. That's all they want to know. He's seen in a very positive light, hence his ratings as we both have agreed upon. He's got a lot of political capitol from that and in the last 6 years he's done no major gaffe to give the populous a different view.

His past is not so much of a big issue as you are portraying it I think. I certainly can appreciate your grasp of it and your "dislike" of him, to put it mildly. The general populous simply don't care about the past of many of our politicians (see Ted Kennedy) but they will still vote for him if he/she seems nice.

If GW can be elected twice with his embarrassment of a past and running primarily on some semblance of personality, Rudy can duplicate it as his past is not as bad and he has far more personality than GW does.

Fun discussion Tyrone. Thanks. This was definately educational.

I think if you stick to the point that he is seen in a positive light, then i agree. But, likable, no way.

More personality: I'm not sure I agree, and is that really a good thing?

As for me, don't confuse what i wrote for my opinion of the candidate.

Response:

1. More than daughter, his son at Duke as well. He treated Hanover terribly, and his children aren't happy about it, nor do they like Judith. I'm sorry, but a candidate in this country needs that family image..especially Reps.
2. Kerik. Associated with the mob. Not the failed bid.
3. No, i guess i would have to give better examples like the fact that he requires a private plane, Judith must accompany and have a seat next to him on any dais...and she requires a separate seat on the plane for her bag.
4. Um. When a grand jury accuses your friend of molestation and his diocese has suspended him, then i don't think you keep them on as a consultant. That isn't politically smart. What is most disturbing about this report is not the fact of abuse, but the utter failure of Guiliani to empathize with the victims of abuse. Basically, it reinforces the reality that Giuliani is a wheeler-dealer who plays fast and loose with the truth.
5. I see your point, but i think you dont' realize the liberals and dems aren't switching to vote repub. Maybe in the past, but no way for another Bush, which rudy is..with a lisp. His previous actions as mayor soured most libs.
6. Temper isn't usually found in likable people. Rudy is known for his temper and inability to get along. Bush maybe an idiot, but he is likable.
7.Rudy is for gun control (that isn't standard GOP), but only in urban areas. LOL He was in favor when he was mayor, getting handguns off the streets.
8. That may be true. Good point. I don't think it will work that way, but he could try to spin it. Unfortunately, he has many critics of his work in 9/11. Now that 9/11 isn't sacred and beyond criticism, we can plainly see the mistakes that were made. Hello, Ms. Whitman.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

A very nice post Tyrone.

First off, I am not endorsing Rudy. Just want to clear that up.

You make my point as well. He's known and has a mystique about him in regards to 9/11. I cited that originally. But if he was such a hugely unlikable person as you make him out to be, he wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the polls.

Yes, we all read The Prince in college. Congratulations.

He's got way more personality than Hillary does, and there are loads of Americans who will simply vote on that alone. Prime example: See how our current president defeated Kerry and Gore.

Sure we look at the mate of the president. Is it an absolute make or break for the vast majority of the populous? Absolutely not. When it comes down to it, nobody cares.

1. Gee, a 17 yr old daughter rebelling? Stop the presses there.
2. So he worked with Kerik years ago. Big deal. Go around the streets of general America and ask 1000 people who he is. Doubt you'll find more than 3 and they may just vaguely remember his failed bid for Homeland Security.
3. There will be mud slinging from both sides on where $ came from. Nothing new here and again, people won't care as they will tune it out. Not like he made it using porn.
4. Loyalty to a childhood friend when he goes through a tough time is honorable. If nothing was yet proven in court, would you abandon a friend?
5. He doesn't simply adhere to the Republican stereo-typical mantra. That would gain liberal votes as he seems reasonable versus polarizing.
6. And?
7. Standard GOP pro-gun stance. Not sure how that's a detriment. When was your quote from if I may ask? Simply just want to get a frame of reference.
8. Prior to 9/11 is just about irrellivent now given it was 6 yrs ago as far as Rudy is concerned. It's conveniently forgotten about any issues he had. He can brush off any previous battles by now saying that after 9/11 he's realized how much working together means. He can milk it.

You're right. I didn't know Rudy prior to 9/11. I didn't live in NY and couldn't care what happened there on a daily governmental basis.


My whole point is this. The vast majority of knowledge that Americans have about Rudy is post 9/11. The hero. The leader. That's all they want to know. He's seen in a very positive light, hence his ratings as we both have agreed upon. He's got a lot of political capitol from that and in the last 6 years he's done no major gaffe to give the populous a different view.

His past is not so much of a big issue as you are portraying it I think. I certainly can appreciate your grasp of it and your "dislike" of him, to put it mildly. The general populous simply don't care about the past of many of our politicians (see Ted Kennedy) but they will still vote for him if he/she seems nice.

If GW can be elected twice with his embarrassment of a past and running primarily on some semblance of personality, Rudy can duplicate it as his past is not as bad and he has far more personality than GW does.

Fun discussion Tyrone. Thanks. This was definately educational.

I think if you stick to the point that he is seen in a positive light, then i agree. But, likable, no way.

More personality: I'm not sure I agree, and is that really a good thing?

As for me, don't confuse what i wrote for my opinion of the candidate.

Response:

1. More than daughter, his son at Duke as well. He treated Hanover terribly, and his children aren't happy about it, nor do they like Judith. I'm sorry, but a candidate in this country needs that family image..especially Reps.
2. Kerik. Associated with the mob. Not the failed bid.
3. No, i guess i would have to give better examples like the fact that he requires a private plane, Judith must accompany and have a seat next to him on any dais...and she requires a separate seat on the plane for her bag.
4. Um. When a grand jury accuses your friend of molestation and his diocese has suspended him, then i don't think you keep them on as a consultant. That isn't politically smart. What is most disturbing about this report is not the fact of abuse, but the utter failure of Guiliani to empathize with the victims of abuse. Basically, it reinforces the reality that Giuliani is a wheeler-dealer who plays fast and loose with the truth.
5. I see your point, but i think you dont' realize the liberals and dems aren't switching to vote repub. Maybe in the past, but no way for another Bush, which rudy is..with a lisp. His previous actions as mayor soured most libs.
6. Temper isn't usually found in likable people. Rudy is known for his temper and inability to get along. Bush maybe an idiot, but he is likable.
7.Rudy is for gun control (that isn't standard GOP), but only in urban areas. LOL He was in favor when he was mayor, getting handguns off the streets.
8. That may be true. Good point. I don't think it will work that way, but he could try to spin it. Unfortunately, he has many critics of his work in 9/11. Now that 9/11 isn't sacred and beyond criticism, we can plainly see the mistakes that were made. Hello, Ms. Whitman.

[Partial]

CHC it is not worth getting into it.

Tyrone will cite his opinion as a fact and then criticize you for a lack of facts

I would get out before he just pisses you off and makes you snap.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Actually, it was a nice discussion.

There was no name calling and it was fairly civil. Politics is always a messy area to discuss and frankly, this was interesting.

[Scott Campbell]

Actually, it was a nice discussion.

Easy for you to say. You won.

[Joemailman]

Again, Rudy isn't likable. Go back and do some research. He is not liked by those in NYC for the most part. They do appreciate his accomplishments, but there was never a lovefest for him.

Romney: It won't matter, as with Rudy. The hard core conserv/religious right aren't jumping on the train. Rudy is multi divorced, cheated on his wives, etc.

Then how is Rudy leading the GOP Presidential nominee race if he's not likable?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html

You don't get a 9% + point lead if you are not likable. He's not just running in NYC. It's his national appeal. Most people only know him from how he acted in and is portrayed after 9/11 which was extremely favorable.

I did my research to show he is currently likable. Now you go do some research to show me he's not liked nationwide.

If Rudy having a 9 point lead in the polls makes him likable in your eyes, what does Hillary having a 18 point lead make her to you? Lovable?

[MJZiggy]

Here's an interesting little tidbit...in another article, the fire chief goes off...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/08/10/2007-08-10_911_workers_outraged_by_new_rudy_claim.html