Brian Brohm

[HarveyWallbangers]

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:

Not sure if you are trying to insinuate that maybe ARod has Favre's arm strength, but you can watch and see that Favre still threw harder than 90% of the starters in the league--even in his old age. Favre's arm strength ranked up there with John Elway as near the best ever. He was like a guy that came into the league throwing 100 MPH. Sure, the last couple of years, he was down a bit (and nobody said it wasn't), but he was still throwing 95-97. ARod is more like a guy who throws 91-93. ARod has good arm strength (above average), but it wasn't even at the top of his draft class. His arm strength was similar to Tarvaris Jackson coming out. A guy like Jay Cutler could probably get up there close to Favre now, but his arm strength is better than ARod's arm strength.

[Patler]

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:

Not sure if you are trying to insinuate that maybe ARod has Favre's arm strength, but you can watch and see that Favre still threw harder than 90% of the starters in the league--even in his old age. Favre's arm strength ranked up there with John Elway as near the best ever. He was like a guy that came into the league throwing 100 MPH. Sure, the last couple of years, he was down a bit (and nobody said it wasn't), but he was still throwing 95-97. ARod is more like a guy who throws 91-93. ARod has good arm strength (above average), but it wasn't even at the top of his draft class. His arm strength was similar to Tarvaris Jackson coming out. A guy like Jay Cutler could probably get up there close to Favre now, but his arm strength is better than ARod's arm strength.

I'm not trying to insinuate anything. I saw the quote, thought it was an interesting comment from Favre himself on a topic being discussed here, so I posted it.

I can't and won't make any comparisons about his arm strength and Rodgers or other current starters, because I have not seen him throw from up close in a number of years. Any information I have is from before his admitted decline. I have never seen Jackson, Cutler or most other starters in person, ever, so I don't know if his arm strength is better than all of them, half of them or none of them. The few highlight replays I see each year from most teams' games don't provide much evidence.

[Patler]

It is no different than what we are told about other young, inexperienced players. Things they seem to do well in practices or whatever that we can hope they will do in games.

Completely understandable. I just don't see why people are so quick to start comparing him in any way, shape or form to Favre when the guy hasn't even started a game...much less to say he's better!!!! It's just not necessary. I just wish everyone (players...apparently, and fans) would let the guy play his own game and not compare.

Being the Favre fan that I am, I'm inclined to say there is absolutely NO way he takes over and doesn't skip a beat, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it could happen.

I guess I don't understand why some people feel they have to be defensive about or protective of Favre's legacy. It will take care of itself. Young QBs being drafted in recent years have been compared to Favre, isn't it only natural that his successor will be?

I don't think anyone should expect Rodgers to take over and the team not skip a beat. Favre had some very, very rough patches for several years early in his career. The problem players have in following a legend is that the young successor is compared to the legend at his prime (which is all most fans remember). He is never compared to the legend at a comparable stage in his career (some fans are too young to really even remember those years), and is rarely even compared to the legend at the end of his career. When Rodgers hits his inevitable rough patches, if comparisons must be made, I hope they are to Favre as a 1st and 2nd year starter, not the Favre the fans want to remember.

[hoosier]

And another thing, TT drafts BPA. He drafted 2 WRs when we have a glutton already, drafted Harrell last year when we were stocked at DT etc.

Gilbert's back? And playing "wide" receiver????

[Zool]

It is no different than what we are told about other young, inexperienced players. Things they seem to do well in practices or whatever that we can hope they will do in games.

Completely understandable. I just don't see why people are so quick to start comparing him in any way, shape or form to Favre when the guy hasn't even started a game...much less to say he's better!!!! It's just not necessary. I just wish everyone (players...apparently, and fans) would let the guy play his own game and not compare.

Being the Favre fan that I am, I'm inclined to say there is absolutely NO way he takes over and doesn't skip a beat, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it could happen.

Its crazy to think he wont be compared to Favre every play for at least the first few years. Rodgers is going to be sick of hearing the name by 2010. Every loss will be "could Favre have won that game?" and every win will be "is that how Favre would have done it?" I don't envy him at all.

I kinda wish it wasn't that way. I've always been a huge Favre fan, but honestly, lately I'm sick of hearing about him. By lately I mean the last few years. I for one don't want to know that much about a players personal life. Every prime time game for the last 3 years we've gotten the rehash of Irv, Deanna's bro etc. Its not surprising that opposing fans are just sick of hearing it. Its not his fault obviously just stating my opinion.

[Packnut]

Nelson

By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

No, he isn't CLEARLY better. TT doesn't have a crystal ball and makes the best decision he can. About 95% of draft picks can be 2nd guessed because someone drafter later will emerge. It has only been 1 year, give Justin some time.

Besides, TT picked up James Jones in the 3rd round who, if was in the same situation as Bowe (no other good receivers on the team) probably would have had as big of an impact as Bowe. Given the choice of JJ/Harrell or Bowe/some 3rd rd DT, I would go with JJ/Harrell hands down.

Or to put it in your context, is Bowe CLEARLY better than JJ? I think the answer to that is also NO.

Tar, I know Rodgers looked decent in the Dallas game... and, maybe he could be good enough to QB the team to a winning record - and never minding the fragility factor, which in his case is HUGE - but, does anyone see him as special???

. . .


I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.

I for one, thing AR can be special. No, you don't need a 'special' QB to win the superbowl, but it sure helps.

Not sure how you can say TT set the team back because of the Harrell pick. The more talent you put on your team the better off you are, even if it is a position of depth.

Not sure how you can say Jackson is 'clearly' not worthy of a 2nd round pick. Grant was not able to step forward and take over till the midpoint of the season. And he was a seasoned NFL player who should have adjusted more quickly than a rookie. Give Jackson some time.

Every pick has some upside to them, and a risk factor on if they will achieve that level or not. Jackson and Harrell are both physical specimens that have the capacity to be special players. Only time will tell if they can be special players in the NFL, and I am of the belief that at least one of these guys steps it up, if not both.

Wrong. Harrell was a LOUSY pick. We have NOTHING at the saftey position. Collins is a BUST. Reggie Nelson was sitting there for the taking. Yeah, that same Reggie Nelson who had an oustanding rookie year. Sorry but Teddy screwed this one up big-time.

[Patler]

Re: Nelson

We have NOTHING at the saftey position. Collins is a BUST. Reggie Nelson was sitting there for the taking. Yeah, that same Reggie Nelson who had an oustanding rookie year. Sorry but Teddy screwed this one up big-time.

Labeling him a "BUST" is a bit harsh when he was named a Pro_Bowl alternate this year. I'm not saying he necessarily deserved it, and quite frankly I expected more than he has shown to date, but he isn't so lousy as to be labeled a bust, in my opinion.

[Packnut]

Re: Nelson

We have NOTHING at the saftey position. Collins is a BUST. Reggie Nelson was sitting there for the taking. Yeah, that same Reggie Nelson who had an oustanding rookie year. Sorry but Teddy screwed this one up big-time.

Labeling him a "BUST" is a bit harsh when he was named a Pro_Bowl alternate this year. I'm not saying he necessarily deserved it, and quite frankly I expected more than he has shown to date, but he isn't so lousy as to be labeled a bust, in my opinion.

He's invisible on the field. He brings nothing to the table. He cannot cover a TE. He delivers zero bone crushing punnishing hits. I cannot count the number of games where his name is never even mentioned.

My memory is hazy, but was'nt he a 3rd rd pick? Bust is a subjective term, but since he has'nt done what was expected of him, I think it's a fair enough label.

[wist43]

By drafting Harrell he pushed a better player off the roster and also wasn't able to fill another position on the roster with a 1st round calibur talent. All b/c TT had Harrell rated that much higher than anyone else, at any other position on the board???

Is Harrell CLEARLY better than Dwayne Bowe??? Or some of the other players at positions of need that went after Harrell???

No, he isn't CLEARLY better. TT doesn't have a crystal ball and makes the best decision he can. About 95% of draft picks can be 2nd guessed because someone drafter later will emerge. It has only been 1 year, give Justin some time.

Besides, TT picked up James Jones in the 3rd round who, if was in the same situation as Bowe (no other good receivers on the team) probably would have had as big of an impact as Bowe. Given the choice of JJ/Harrell or Bowe/some 3rd rd DT, I would go with JJ/Harrell hands down.

Or to put it in your context, is Bowe CLEARLY better than JJ? I think the answer to that is also NO.

Tar, I know Rodgers looked decent in the Dallas game... and, maybe he could be good enough to QB the team to a winning record - and never minding the fragility factor, which in his case is HUGE - but, does anyone see him as special???

. . .


I think you can look at last years draft and make a case that TT screwed up both sides of the debate BPA vs need. He took Harrell as his BPA in the 1st round and ultimately set the team back b/c of it; and he took Jackson in the 2nd as a need pick, and he clearly isn't a 2nd round talent.

I for one, thing AR can be special. No, you don't need a 'special' QB to win the superbowl, but it sure helps.

Not sure how you can say TT set the team back because of the Harrell pick. The more talent you put on your team the better off you are, even if it is a position of depth.

Not sure how you can say Jackson is 'clearly' not worthy of a 2nd round pick. Grant was not able to step forward and take over till the midpoint of the season. And he was a seasoned NFL player who should have adjusted more quickly than a rookie. Give Jackson some time.

Every pick has some upside to them, and a risk factor on if they will achieve that level or not. Jackson and Harrell are both physical specimens that have the capacity to be special players. Only time will tell if they can be special players in the NFL, and I am of the belief that at least one of these guys steps it up, if not both.

I think there is a solid basis by which to argue that TT did, in fact, get both sides of the BPA vs. need equation wrong in the '07 draft.

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster... Harrell is young and has to get better, but I don't see him having the talent of Williams. So taking the "BPA" (and here's the crux of the argument) REGARDLESS OF POSITION, added depth to an already strong position for one year, and then facilitated the exit of Williams, constituting a step backward.

Jackson was a high pick at a position of need... He's average, or below average, at everything; and his ceiling isn't high at all. I don't want my 1st and 2nd round picks to be average. I want them to be difference makers.

Those things said, I have in general liked TT's drafts... I'm more critical of his approach to filling out a championship calibur roster. If the BPA is at a position of strength year after year, and he continues to stubbornly overstock one position, while trying to catch lightning in a bottle later in the draft or bottom feeding on the FA market to fill holes, how does he get all the holes filled with championship calibur talent???

In the end, what ends up happening you probably still have the hole, and the BPA you drafted is not going to have much of an impact b/c his position was already one of strength.

[Zool]

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster.

So I assume you believe that a rotation d-tackle is worth 6/$38mil with $16mil guaranteed? That is what pushed Williams off the roster not Harrell. If Williams was thought to be worth the money then Miur or Cole would be gone.

Williams is a good pass rusher from the inside but not overly stout against the run. I think Cleveland's 3-4 will be a much better fit for him. Plus his parting shots after getting traded and signing a huge contract show him to be petty.

[Deputy Nutz]

Interesting comment from Favre himself about his arm strength in recent years:

Not sure if you are trying to insinuate that maybe ARod has Favre's arm strength, but you can watch and see that Favre still threw harder than 90% of the starters in the league--even in his old age. Favre's arm strength ranked up there with John Elway as near the best ever. He was like a guy that came into the league throwing 100 MPH. Sure, the last couple of years, he was down a bit (and nobody said it wasn't), but he was still throwing 95-97. ARod is more like a guy who throws 91-93. ARod has good arm strength (above average), but it wasn't even at the top of his draft class. His arm strength was similar to Tarvaris Jackson coming out. A guy like Jay Cutler could probably get up there close to Favre now, but his arm strength is better than ARod's arm strength.

After watching some of Favre's games from the 90s and even though the film is bad from the 80s when Elway was in his prime I still have to go with Favre on arm strength. The absolutely silly thing is the fact that Favre was able to maintain his arm strength throughout his career, Elway lost a good bit of zip on his fastball later in his career.

[wist43]

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster.

So I assume you believe that a rotation d-tackle is worth 6/$38mil with $16mil guaranteed? That is what pushed Williams off the roster not Harrell. If Williams was thought to be worth the money then Miur or Cole would be gone.

Williams is a good pass rusher from the inside but not overly stout against the run. I think Cleveland's 3-4 will be a much better fit for him. Plus his parting shots after getting traded and signing a huge contract show him to be petty.

No, I wouldn't want to pay Williams that... but that's the advantage of reupping them early. TT broke off negotiations, drafted Harrell, and the rest is history.

Are you guys really prepared to argue that we're a better team by having used used a 1st round pick on Harrell and escorting Williams out the door???

Are you guys really prepared to argue that???

You can dance around it, but in the end, the GBP took a step backward at the DT position, and "wasted" a 1st round pick in doing it.

Even if Harrell steps it up and becomes a player equal to Williams, are we not still only as good as we were b/4 we drafted Harrell and let Williams walk. How did that improve the team??? That's the bottom line.

[Deputy Nutz]

Drafting Harrell contributed to moving Williams off the roster.

So I assume you believe that a rotation d-tackle is worth 6/$38mil with $16mil guaranteed? That is what pushed Williams off the roster not Harrell. If Williams was thought to be worth the money then Miur or Cole would be gone.

Williams is a good pass rusher from the inside but not overly stout against the run. I think Cleveland's 3-4 will be a much better fit for him. Plus his parting shots after getting traded and signing a huge contract show him to be petty.

No, I wouldn't want to pay Williams that... but that's the advantage of reupping them early. TT broke off negotiations, drafted Harrell, and the rest is history.

Are you guys really prepared to argue that we're a better team by having used used a 1st round pick on Harrell and escorting Williams out the door???

Are you guys really prepared to argue that???

You can dance around it, but in the end, the GBP took a step backward at the DT position, and "wasted" a 1st round pick in doing it.

Even if Harrell steps it up and becomes a player equal to Williams, are we not still only as good as we were b/4 we drafted Harrell and let Williams walk. How did that improve the team??? That's the bottom line.

Or argument is just as false. Simply because Harrell has only played one year. It seems you want to compare Williams entire career in Green Bay to Harrel's one. After 4 years you can make these statements on how the Packers took a step back.

[Zool]

Maybe TT broke off the negotiations because Williams was asking for far too much money? I'm not saying that Harrell is a better player or will ever be, but his being on the team would force out the lesser players like Cole or Miur if that really was the case.

Are you ready to argue that TT flat out refused to negotiate a contract with Williams because he didn't like him? The only reason either side stops negotiating is when they are so far off in numbers that they will not reach a compromise. There's absolutely no way of saying that had we drafted a punter with the first pick that the Williams situation wouldn't have come out exactly the same.

[Patler]

No, I wouldn't want to pay Williams that... but that's the advantage of reupping them early. TT broke off negotiations, drafted Harrell, and the rest is history.

Are you guys really prepared to argue that we're a better team by having used used a 1st round pick on Harrell and escorting Williams out the door???

Are you guys really prepared to argue that???

You can dance around it, but in the end, the GBP took a step backward at the DT position, and "wasted" a 1st round pick in doing it.

Even if Harrell steps it up and becomes a player equal to Williams, are we not still only as good as we were b/4 we drafted Harrell and let Williams walk. How did that improve the team??? That's the bottom line.

Maybe they did take a step back at DT, so what? Not every single move can result in improvement at the position in question. Were the Packers better off when Wolf let Paup leave in free agency? Cecil? Bennett? Evans? Hentrich? Timmerman? I would dare guess that in the year immediately following each, there was not an improvement at the position in question. Sometimes good players are lost to other teams and have to be replaced by players not quite as good. Hopefully there are improvements in other areas that compensate for the loss.