WHAT GRADE do you give TT thus far in DRAFTS

[prsnfoto]

Wolf was equally bad in the 1st round the big difference is how they used FA TT is a afraid of it and it surprises me since Woodsen and Chillar(who is a best LB right now) and Pickett have all panned out.

Is this sarcasm?

No

Rodgers is going to be good but he fell into TT's lap, Harrell sucks, Hawk was nowhere near a 5th pick in talent and he didn't have one this year because the Jets used ours to take Keller. I assume you feel TT is a great draft genius?
He has drafted well in the 2nd and later rounds to add depth but a lot of those picks are just guys, Jennings has been his best pick so far. We all know this could change I was ready to give up on Collins and he is finally coming into his own but to think he a genius is stretching it in my opinion.

[sharpe1027]

No

Rodgers is going to be good but he fell into TT's lap, Harrell sucks, Hawk was nowhere near a 5th pick in talent and he didn't have one this year because the Jets used ours to take Keller. I assume you feel TT is a great draft genius?
He has drafted well in the 2nd and later rounds to add depth but a lot of those picks are just guys, Jennings has been his best pick so far. We all know this could change I was ready to give up on Collins and he is finally coming into his own but to think he a genius is stretching it in my opinion.

I meant the conflicting statements about free agents. You state that TT is afraid of free agents and in the same sentence show how successfull he has been in free agency. I honestly thought you were poking fun at people who mistakently believe he is adverse to free agency. Let's not forget that he pulled the trigger on Moss and a few others, only get get beat out at the last minute. I don't understand why people think he is afraid of free agency. He is at least above average in that regard.

Who said anything about a genius? Strawman....

[Rastak]

No

Rodgers is going to be good but he fell into TT's lap, Harrell sucks, Hawk was nowhere near a 5th pick in talent and he didn't have one this year because the Jets used ours to take Keller. I assume you feel TT is a great draft genius?
He has drafted well in the 2nd and later rounds to add depth but a lot of those picks are just guys, Jennings has been his best pick so far. We all know this could change I was ready to give up on Collins and he is finally coming into his own but to think he a genius is stretching it in my opinion.

I meant the conflicting statements about free agents. You state that TT is afraid of free agents and in the same sentence show how successfull he has been in free agency. I honestly thought you were poking fun at people who mistakently believe he is adverse to free agency. Let's not forget that he pulled the trigger on Moss and a few others, only get get beat out at the last minute. I don't understand why people think he is afraid of free agency. He is at least above average in that regard.

Who said anything about a genius? Strawman....

Here's the list


Matt O'Dwyer
Adrian Klemm
Samkon Gado
Rod Gardner
Donald Lee
Maquand Manuel
Ryan Pickett
Ben Taylor
Charles Woodson
Frank Walker
Brandon Chillar

[sharpe1027]

Here's the list

Matt O'Dwyer
Adrian Klemm
Samkon Gado
Rod Gardner
Donald Lee
Maquand Manuel
Ryan Pickett
Ben Taylor
Charles Woodson
Frank Walker
Brandon Chillar

Thanks!

I think another factor often overlooked is that he has resigned a lot of players before they ever reached FA status. Those are effectively FA signings of your own players.

[bobblehead]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

you displayed adequate ignorance in that post, I'll leave it alone.

[bobblehead]

I'd say Larry Mccarren knows more about OL than you and he's pretty enamoured with Colledge right now. I spotted Colledges solid play earlier, but since my opinion is but one internet junkies, I choose to site Mccarren's opinion.

Spitz has been rock solid and is even better at center (where he'll eventually be when Sitton moves to guard and we replace mini-me Wells).


In short, yeah, I think those are really good picks. You shouldn't expect rookies to play great out of the gate and 2nd year players have a learning curve too. NOw that they've matured into NFL players they're doing a really good job, esspecially Colledge. HE's a really good player whether you want to get over yoru first impression or not.



As far as Poopy, yeah, that wasn't a great pick but a solid ST/Backup type player in the 4th round isn't bad. I like both Bishop and Hawk.

I have to give you props on Colledge and Spitz after the Carolina game. They both played well, Colledge in particular (though they couldn't get it done at the end of the game on the goal line).

But overall, solid games, and if they keep it up, I'll re-adjust my view of them.

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

MIKE STOCK

[bobblehead]

Compared to Ron Wolf, TT sucks canal water. Wolf gives away more players than TT finds. Namely Hentrich, Paup, and Tony Bennett.

Bennett was from the Infante regime.

Look at Wolf's success of his first 3 drafts in the 4th year.

Players contributing to the Packers were Aaron Taylor, Wayne Simmons, Kuberski, Brooks, Bennett, and Teague.


In the same time, TT has the following players:

TT has: Hawk, Collins, Jennings, Rodgers, Spitz, Poppinga, Crosby, Hall, and Jolly.

Clearly the advantage is to TT at this point. Many of Wolf's picks emerged after the 4th year for Wolf (Dotson, Chewy, Evans, Levens, wilkens and Schroeder). It would be unfair to use them in the comparison because TT's picks have not had the same time frame to develop. Levens, for example, had 120 yards rushing in his 2nd year. TT will have a tough time keeping that advantage, but for right now, he is the superior talent evaluator.


Wolf's first 3 drafts:

1994	1	1	16	16	Aaron Taylor	 T	Notre Dame
 	2	3	19	84	LeShon Johnson	RB	Northern Illinois
 	3	4	23	126	Gabe Wilkins	DE	Gardner-Webb
 	4	5	15	146	Terry Mickens	WR	Florida A&M
 	5	5	18	149	Dorsey Levens	RB	Georgia Tech
 	6	6	8	169	Jay Kearney	WR	West Virginia
 	7	6	14	175	Ruffin Hamilton	LB	Tulane
 	8	6	20	181	Bill Schroeder	WR	Wisconsin-La Crosse
 	9	6	29	190	Paul Duckworth	LB	Connecticut
1993	1	1	15	15	Wayne Simmons	LB	Clemson
 	2	1	29	29	George Teague	DB	Alabama
 	3	3	25	81	Earl Dotson	 T	Texas A&I
 	4	5	6	118	Mark Brunell	QB	Washington
 	5	5	7	119	James Willis	LB	Auburn
 	6	6	1	141	Doug Evans	DB	Louisiana Tech
 	7	6	12	152	Paul Hutchins	 T	Western Michigan
 	8	6	16	156	Tim Watson	DB	Howard
 	9	7	15	183	Robert Kuberski	DE	Navy
1992	1	1	5	5	Terrell Buckley	DB	Florida State
 	2	2	6	34	Mark D'Onofrio	LB	Penn State
 	3	3	6	62	Robert Brooks	WR	South Carolina
 	4	4	19	103	Edgar Bennett	RB	Florida State
 	5	5	7	119	Dexter McNabb	RB	Florida
 	6	5	18	130	Orlando McKay	WR	Washington
 	7	6	17	157	Mark Chmura	TE	Boston College
 	8	7	22	190	Chris Holder	WR	Tuskegee
 	9	9	6	230	Ty Detmer	QB	Brigham Young
 	10	9	16	240	Shazzon Bradley	DT	Tennessee
 	11	10	5	257	Andrew Oberg	 T	North Carolina
 	12	11	7	287	Gabe Mokwuah	LB	American International
 	13	12	6	314	Brett Collins	LB	Washington

and you havne't even gotten to the twin failings at LT...Michaels and Verba. How about terell buckly, anyone want to compare him to harrell?

[DonHutson]

Re: WHAT GRADE do you give TT thus far in DRAFTS

2008 - Nelson looks like a future starter. Brohm, Lee, and Finley all look like major projects. Brohm is the biggest worry to me. I don't know if he has what it takes physically to play. The other two have the talent, I don't know about the brains and the heart. Thompson played a lot of snaps, but he hasn't really made any plays. Sitton looks promising. Breno, who knows? Flynn, better than Brohm but that may be damnation with faint praise.

Too early to say with any confidence, but the early returns are not promising. I'd say a tentative C-. Ask me again in a few years.

2007 - Harrell has been hurt, but since he was hurt when Thompson picked him I can't give Ted much of a pass on that. Jackson was expected to be a project and he's developing nicely. I think he'll turn out to be better than Grant before too long. Jones, nice start but he's getting lost in the shuffle. Rouse looks good when he plays. He could be a quality starter if he can ever get to the top of the depth chart. Barbre, for all the talk about him he doesn't get on the field much. And it's not like the players ahead of him are world beaters. He might be coming up on a now or never year next year. Hall is a decent starter. Bishop is a solid backup. I can't stand Wynn, but he's been exactly what they probably expected, a talent with questionable heart.

B-, higher if Harrell improves, lower if Jackson doesn't.

2006 - Jennings is a stud WR from a draft that wasn't supposed to have any good WR's. Hawk was a good starter, who's having a bad year. He's underwhelming to this point. Blackmon is a phenomenol return man. Spitz is a pretty good starter. Colledge is OK. Jolly was a good find in the 6th round, but he hasn't really stepped up as a starter. Moll is just a guy.

B, if the guy we saw last year is the real Hawk. If this year's Hawk is the real Hawk then this is a C. If the real Hawk is better than what we've seen, then the grade would go up accordingly.

2005 - It took awhile, but it finally looks like Rodgers and Collins will settle in as borderline Pro Bowl type players who at least have a chance to go most years. Poppinga has been a below average starter. Montgomery has been OK for a 6th rounder. It's a shame about Murphy, but maybe having Murphy would've meant not drafting Jennings the following year... who knows? You can excuse that pick.

A franchise QB at the end of the 1st and another Pro Bowl caliber player. That has to be an A whatever the rest of these guys have done.

That said, we always look at these things in a Packer vacuum. It would be more relevant to compare these drafts to others around the league.

[bobblehead]

The T-buck and Harrell selections are eerily similiar, except that T-buck was much higher.

As several people mentioned, a lot of the players we take for granted as being good players didn't gain recognition until after the super-bowl run. Winning makes the exact same player seem better, just look at where all the pro-bowl players come from.

True enough, I suppose, but my point was more that Wolf's players took time to develop and people are expecting TT's players to be instant probowlers. Look at JH. Has a DT ever come into the league and dominated? I know it is dissappointing to have him injured and not contributing - but to expect a big impact from a rookie or even a first year guy is unreasonable.

Amobi Okoye, Sedrick Ellis, Brandon Mebrane, Haloti Ngata, Brodeick Bunkley to name a few guys who contributed to their team in their first two years.

Look at Cullen Jenkins stats for his first two years. 7.5 sacks 36 tackles. I know he later moved to end but as a DT his did ok.
Kevin Williams has 22 sacks his first two years.

I guess I agree with "big impact" being unreasonable, but some impact is not.

yes there are a few....and there are flops. Now if we are going to ignore Jenkins time on the practice squad and count '06 as his first year instead of '03 he does indeed look pretty good.

[sharpe1027]

Re: WHAT GRADE do you give TT thus far in DRAFTS

That said, we always look at these things in a Packer vacuum. It would be more relevant to compare these drafts to others around the league.

Bears:
2008:
1 14 14 Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
2 13 44 Matt Forte RB Tulane
3 7 70 Earl Bennett WR Vanderbilt
3 27 90 Marcus Harrison DT Arkansas
4 21 120 Craig Steltz S Louisiana State
5 7 142 Zack Bowman CB Nebraska
5 23 158 Kellen Davis TE Michigan State
7 1 208 Ervin Baldwin DE Michigan State
7 15 222 Chester Adams OT Georgia
7 36 243 Joey LaRocque ILB Oregon State
7 39 247 Kirk Barton OT Ohio State
7 40 248 Marcus Monk WR Arkansas

2007:
1 31 31 Greg Olsen TE Miami
2 30 62 Dan Bazuin DE Central Michigan
3 30 93 Garrett Wolfe RB Northern Illinois
3 31 94 Michael Okwo LB Stanford
4 31 130 Josh Beekman OG Boston College
5 30 167 Kevin Payne CB Louisiana-Monroe
5 31 168 Corey Graham CB New Hampshire
7 11 221 Trumaine McBride CB Mississippi
7 31 241 Aaron Brant OT Iowa State

2006:
2 10 42 Danieal Manning S Abilene Christian
2 25 57 Devin Hester WR Miami
3 9 73 Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma
4 23 120 Jamar Williams LB Arizona State
5 27 159 Mark Anderson DE Alabama
6 26 195 J.D. Runnells FB Oklahoma
6 31 200 Tyler Reed OG Penn State

2005:
1 4 4 Cedric Benson RB Texas
2 7 39 Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma
4 5 106 Kyle Orton QB Purdue
5 4 140 Airese Currie WR Clemson
6 7 181 Chris Harris CB Louisiana-Monroe
7 6 220 Rodriques Wilson LB South Carolina

[bobblehead]

I still say if he drafts so damn well, and if we're so damn deep, why do our STs suck so bad? Shouldn't they shine with all this talent?

Stock.

Its not quite this simple, obviously. Stock was also the coach last year when the Packers had one of their best Special Teams performances in two decades, all around. Last year the ST were clearly an indication of our depth and talent.

Which players kept are important. Tracy White is missed, but there may be other pieces either hurt or replaced for other reasons that are causing the dropoff. Our punter is not helping the punt coverage team.

The big question is what happened to kickoff coverage? Is it all Tracy White? I don't think Rob Davis was on the kickoff coverage team.

I've wondered about Tracy White. When he left several players said he was unquestionably the leader of the special team units. Since ST tends to be a lot of younger guys, less experienced, perhaps the veteran leadership of White is missed. He may have been a calming influence, a guy the others looked to for leadership.

I knew it, all those people saying brett was the inspiration and its tracy white all along

[DonHutson]

Re: WHAT GRADE do you give TT thus far in DRAFTS

That said, we always look at these things in a Packer vacuum. It would be more relevant to compare these drafts to others around the league.

Bears:
2008:

That's the spirit, Sharpe! Maybe Baddest Bear can offer a more educated point of view on these drafts, but to me Orton, Anderson, and Forte are the real standout picks. Hester and Manning were good values.

Maybe some of those guys will turn into players and I don't pay enough attention to the Bears to know it, but I'd say those are close but slightly worse than Ted's drafts.

[bobblehead]

don, I saw a pattern. As you went backwards (meaning the players have had time to develope) the grades got better and ended with an A. If that says anything its that he is finding adequate talent and the coaches are developing it.

I do think its time to REALLY focus on the DL and maybe even LT in this draft.

[sharpe1027]

Re: WHAT GRADE do you give TT thus far in DRAFTS

Bears:
2005:
1 4 4 Cedric Benson RB Texas
2 7 39 Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma
4 5 106 Kyle Orton QB Purdue
5 4 140 Airese Currie WR Clemson
6 7 181 Chris Harris CB Louisiana-Monroe
7 6 220 Rodriques Wilson LB South Carolina

Cedric Benson -a dissappointment, now gone.
Mark Bradley -released after only two years.
Kyle Orton - their best QB, but that's not saying much.
Airese Currie - always injured and released after two years.
Chris Harris - started as a rookie, was eventually traded.
Rodriques Wilson - backup that has since been released.

Draft grade: D+

[DonHutson]

don, I saw a pattern. As you went backwards (meaning the players have had time to develope) the grades got better and ended with an A. If that says anything its that he is finding adequate talent and the coaches are developing it.

I think that's true. Looking at last year there is a lot of room to improve from a C-. My skepticism aside, it's certainly possible that guys like Lee or Finley could get much better.

I also think the OL is the exception, where a lot of mid round or higher picks have been invested with not much positive development afterward.

Coaches tend to be an overlooked part of the personnel equation. A staff full of good teachers can make a GM look better than he is. Was Ron Wolf really a master at finding late round gems or did Holmgren have a staff in place that could take marginal talent and turn them into players? Of course it can work the other way too. Hard to know which is which from the outside.