D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

[Patler]

Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

So you have already concluded Brohm will never have success in the NFL?
Good gosh, some of you seem to think it is a failure unless he picks a player who is an instant starter and borderline all pro in his first season.

[Bretsky]

Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

So you have already concluded Brohm will never have success in the NFL?
Good gosh, some of you seem to think it is a failure unless he picks a player who is an instant starter and borderline all pro in his first season.

I did not say he'd be a failure; he has time. But it appeared they were comparing the loss of Williams to the addition of Jordy Nelson when in reality we selected Brohm.........who looks less promising at this point.

[RashanGary]

I'll agree with Patler that it's not his fault per se, but more than any problem in the past, TT had control over this. Most of the blame that gets tossed his way were problems that developed under the previous GM. This problem developed under him.

There is a good, solid base. The problems are not as deep as they have been in the past. He has a chance to fix this thing and make it right. He's done a whole bunch of good things for this team. IMO he's not completely off the hook though. This is a red flag and he has to get it fixed. I don't give him the same leeway I gave with the OL.

[Partial]

I think with some DL help, and A-Rod taking another step forward (becoming top 8-10 QB), we'll be playoff bound certainly.

We need to start establishing a physical presence in the running game before A-Rod will reach his true potential.

[Patler]

I'll agree with Patler that it's not his fault per se, but more than any problem in the past, TT had control over this. Most of the blame that gets tossed his way were problems that developed under the previous GM. This problem developed under him.

There is a good, solid base. The problems are not as deep as they have been in the past. He has a chance to fix this thing and make it right. He's done a whole bunch of good things for this team. IMO he's not completely off the hook though. This is a red flag and he has to get it fixed. I don't give him the same leeway I gave with the OL.

I agree with that. The problem is his, not anyone else, but I guess my point was that I can understand his thinking in the off season that they would be OK on the D-line. I can understand why he was not more active than he was in making changes at the position.

I am interested to see his approach this off season. A few years back it was obvious that CB was a real problem, and he went out and spent a lot of money on Woodson. Assuming there is someone with talent available, will he do the same for the D-line this off season?

I see three scenarios -
1. He goes out and makes a number of changes in whatever way, draft, trade, signings. The new guys may or may not work out in 2009, but at least it will be obvious that he is trying to rebuild the D-line.

2. He concludes that the ability is there, 2008 was a fluke, so he changes little. This would be a defining decision for his longevity. If he is right, they play well in 2009. If he is wrong and there are more injuries to the same people, and under performance again by others, he will not be up to snuff as a GM for Green Bay.

3. He recognizes the problem but does not see suitable free agents or draft picks available this off season, or just can't convince target FAs to come to GB. This will be hard for us to determine or evaluate next year, and for fans it will be hard to distinguish from #2. Internally it will be known, however, and he will be held accountable for being more right than wrong.

[Packnut]

TT

Patler- your defense of Teddy while a noble attempt is nothing more than BS and it all falls apart going back to one particular game. You claim Teddy could'nt have known about the d-lines weakness yet what the hell was the NFC championship game?

That game was a PROVEN fact that we could not stop the run and we could not apply pressure. It is the reason we did not advance to the SB. So Teddy had the proof right in front of his nose and what happened? NOTHING! That is the part that cannot be refuted, lied about or just looked over.

Are you gonna tell me no one in that organization thought that Mr Harrell might spend the off-season eating himself into a frenzy? Since it was already known he had a poor work ethic it was the man in charge who is responsible for seeing potential problems and Teddy did nothing. I won't argue what a horrible pick it was since the facts are all in and arguing it would be a waste of space on your part.

I also will not debate the merits of trading Mr Williams. I will however say that he was an important part of the rotation and as per usual in the Thompson era, he makes a move without having a back-up plan in place.

We all know Cullen Jenkins has a difficult time staying healthy and he does not have the ability to play well when hurt. Counting on him playing a full season healthy was nothing more than wishful thinking and a GM does not have that luxury.

KGB is a speed rusher. It's the only thing he does. Any competent GM would know that as speed rushers age, they lose quickness and since they have no other talent to counter that loss, is'nt it foolish to depend on them? Should'nt there have been a "what if" scenario in place?

Now Mr Jolly. Why would any competent GM go into a season counting on a guy that more than likely is gonna do some time? Would'nt you kind off expect his play to drop off considering the thought of jail time in Texas just might be a very unpleasent thought?

No, you can make up all the excuses you want (and that is exactly what you have done) in order to cover up for our brain-dead GM. Funny how last season, all the Thompson backers wanted the credit going to Teddy yet now as the free-fall continues, those same people have all kinds of excuses for him. I would warrant that as a tad hypocritical. It's a results orientated business and Teddy has failed big-time- a FACT that more and more fans and writers are seeing.

[Spaulding]

The question I have though is that even given the injuries and decline of the DL play, how much is that due to player talent/experience versus coaching?

Baltimore continues to turn out great defense after great defense and yet none of their DL's have been starters or alternates to the pro-bowl. Their linebacking corp has been excellent with Lewis and Suggs and McAlister at CB is a stud but does that equate to continued dominance? Sam goes for the Patriots, they lose player after player (Samuel last year) where their only pro-bowler is Seymour but are always solid on defense.

I am still of the belief that given Harris and Woodson and the bump coverage that we play, it still leaves room for stunts and an occasional blitz (ala Jim Johnson of the Eagles) to mask our normal lack of pass rush.

For arguments sake, given our current roster and a different a defensive coordinator say like Jim Johnson, do you believe that the defense would play better or worse?

TT is certainly at fault to some extent but in my eyes nowhere near what the coaching staff is for failure to execute and play to the strengths of the remaining healthy players on the roster.

Coaches make average players good and good players great and empower them into being in position to make plays.

This year the coaching staff has failed at that.

[prsnfoto]

I don't agree with too much of this

TT should have known nobody was in line to add what Williams added to this squad. Could have prepared for the distinct chance that Justine would be hurt again and Jenkins....who has been oft injured lately...would get hurt again. KGB had knee surgery and is up there in years.

He waiting til a late 4th to do anything there.

He takes the fall on this one in my book.

On paper TT has not really brought anybody in to help this group besides Pickett. Hunter......junk......Montgomery......junk....Cole .....just a guy..the 4th round draft pick......undeveloped project. We have guys playing serious downs that may not make other teams. Cole is a last DL and nothing more; he's one of our better guys.

We're devoid of talent; I've turned into more of a TT apologist that I was a year ago but he takes the fall for the personnell on the defensive line.

I think he was banking on a combination of KGB and Jenkins at DE, just like he did last season. Jenkins, especially, since he had a monster season in 2006 and a solid but not spectacular 2007. It worked for us last season, why shouldn't have worked this season? They aren't that old - KGB is the oldest and he's only 31. Looking at everything involved, I can't really see where the need was to upgrade at DE. Now using hindsight as my guide, there is an obvious need. Since TT now has that benefit as well, I'm sure he'll get something done. If not, trust me, I'll jump on him for it.

Then he is a big idiot to all you KGB lovers out there he has always been shit against the run and if you go back and look at his sacks I believe you will find he got them in bunches against terrible teams and then diappears for several games as a non factor. He was never like Kampman and made a ton of money for a guy who averaged 8-9 sacks a year against 4-5 teams a year he was a bum, not Cledius Hunt bum but a bum none the less. Jenkins has never proved he can stay healthy and Harrell, well he ought to know what a bad drafter he was on that one our GM sucks, lucky for him he is also the pied piper and has plenty of blind sheep to follow, have faith to the rest of us it only took 8 years to get rid of the last pied piper who so many blindly believed .

[Gunakor]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

You are right that it's not his fault KGB's minor surgery really seemed to affect him, the Cullen got hurt, or that Ryan Picket's play declined.

However, it is his fault for assuming a #1 draft pick who has done nothing in the little time he has been on the field, and has been hurt not just in a majority of his college career, but in a majority of his NFL career (2 seasons, hurt both years), to replace Corey Williams who was very solid and went on to start for another team. You NEVER assume a #1 draft pick, who was hurt befor the draft, then got hurt AFTER the draft, is going to be better then someone who has proven themselves.

That IS his fault. For drafting a player who had a major injury and didn't really play his final year in college, and assuming said player, after getting another injury that put him out most the season his rookie year, could replace a healthy, and solid playing, DT.

Think how much of a difference the line would have stopping hte run with just one more solid DT in the mix. Could be a world of difference.

Sorry, that part is TT's fault. The rest is not.

And what if Harrell had overcome his injuries and played up to his potential? Or at the very least, played up to the level he was playing at late last season? Don't forget now, Harrell played effectively late in the season last year, so there was no reason NOT to believe he'd be any worse than solid this year. He was healthy when Corey Williams was traded.

No, he wasn't. He was getting surgery and was suppose to be on pace to return around training camp. Then he got hurt again, and they put him on the PUP list.

And, at the end of last season, Harrel didn't do much. Just because you actually saw his number on the field doesn't mean he played well. I was not impressed, and I was severely upset to see his number called before williams in the playoffs, when williams was outperforming him.

You simply do not let a solid DL go until said first round does something. Still waiting. It's getting to the point where Harrell is a Bust. They did it with KGB, could of easily did it with Williams. Keep him till TC, then let him go if you wish. Harrell didn't make ti to TC, and thus, Williams would of still been around.

Just saying, Harrell didn't do anything last season any better then Williams, and williams is pretty young himself.

Williams was traded in March or early April. I thought Harrell's deal was that he got injured later during the offseason, while trying to get back into shape for this year. If that's true, yeah, he was healthy the day the trade was made.

Williams is not a solid DL. He is a solid backup DL, but not a good starter. When he was playing #3 DT at the beginning of last year he had monster numbers, but when he was named a starter midway through the season he struggled. Like I said, I don't think he had a single sack the last month of the regular season or the playoffs. He really wasn't out performing Harrell when the playoffs came around.

They kept KGB instead of Williams for 2 reasons. First of all, KGB had a better season last year, and one would assume that even if he had declined this year he'd still outperform Williams anyway. Secondly, there was no way TT would have gotten a 2nd round draft pick for KGB. There was more value in trading Williams than there was with KGB. That I think is the most key part of this decision, was the value we could get in return being greatest in trading Williams.

Sure, hindsight tells us that we'd MAYBE have gotten more value by keeping him - can't be too sure because he's really stunk up the joint in Cleveland this year, certainly hasn't proven himself worth the 2nd round pick we got for him - but go back to when the trade was made and tell me you weren't pleased with the trade. Like I said earlier in this thread or another one, I can't think of a single person that wasn't thrilled with getting a 2nd round pick for Williams last spring.

[Gunakor]

Hindsight is good and nice on the Corey Williams deal, but at the time it seemed like we were getting a steal since he was leaving either way. I would do the deal again in retrospect, but I might not draft a receiver

Yeah...I like Jordy, but he's a luxury we really don't need at the moment. We need some players up front on either side of the ball. Brohm isn't exactly reaping rewards for us either.

Not to make you guys feel even worse, but we drafted Brian Brohm with the pick we received for Corey Williams

Yeah, we did. And who wasn't pleased about that when Brohm was drafted? I can think of quite a few people on here that were saying he'd eventually unseat Rodgers as our starting QB of the future.

He didn't look any worse during this preseason than Rodgers looked in his first preseason. There's no reason he can't be coached up to be just as good in 3 years as Rodgers is this year. There's no reason to believe he won't become a solid backup for the short term here for us, or a solid starter beyond that for us or another team.

[Patler]

Re: TT

Patler- your defense of Teddy while a noble attempt is nothing more than BS and it all falls apart going back to one particular game. You claim Teddy could'nt have known about the d-lines weakness yet what the hell was the NFC championship game?

That game was a PROVEN fact that we could not stop the run and we could not apply pressure. It is the reason we did not advance to the SB. So Teddy had the proof right in front of his nose and what happened? NOTHING! That is the part that cannot be refuted, lied about or just looked over.

Are you gonna tell me no one in that organization thought that Mr Harrell might spend the off-season eating himself into a frenzy? Since it was already known he had a poor work ethic it was the man in charge who is responsible for seeing potential problems and Teddy did nothing. I won't argue what a horrible pick it was since the facts are all in and arguing it would be a waste of space on your part.

I also will not debate the merits of trading Mr Williams. I will however say that he was an important part of the rotation and as per usual in the Thompson era, he makes a move without having a back-up plan in place.

We all know Cullen Jenkins has a difficult time staying healthy and he does not have the ability to play well when hurt. Counting on him playing a full season healthy was nothing more than wishful thinking and a GM does not have that luxury.

KGB is a speed rusher. It's the only thing he does. Any competent GM would know that as speed rushers age, they lose quickness and since they have no other talent to counter that loss, is'nt it foolish to depend on them? Should'nt there have been a "what if" scenario in place?

Now Mr Jolly. Why would any competent GM go into a season counting on a guy that more than likely is gonna do some time? Would'nt you kind off expect his play to drop off considering the thought of jail time in Texas just might be a very unpleasent thought?

No, you can make up all the excuses you want (and that is exactly what you have done) in order to cover up for our brain-dead GM. Funny how last season, all the Thompson backers wanted the credit going to Teddy yet now as the free-fall continues, those same people have all kinds of excuses for him. I would warrant that as a tad hypocritical. It's a results orientated business and Teddy has failed big-time- a FACT that more and more fans and writers are seeing.

Your argument is based on a lot of inaccuracies and hindsight.

The Packers allowed the Giants 130 yards rushing on 37 carries, 3.5/carry to two guys that collectively averaged 5.3/carry during the regular season. Ya, that was a huge indicator to TT of run defense problems wasn't it? The bigger problems in that game were that Plaxico Burress had more yards receiving than the entire rushing output of the Giants, Harris couldn't stop him; and the Packers offense gained less than 100 yards and ran just 22 plays in 5 possessions in the second half.

Corey Williams was traded February 29. The D-line was healthy then, Harrell was home eating and uninjured, KGB was working out to strengthen his ankle, with no concerns about his knee yet. Jenkins was healing or healed. No one was scheduled for surgeries, repair or anything significant at that time.

Jolly was arrested in mid-July, just a couple weeks before training camp started. Not much TT could do then but hope for the best with Jolly. Who was available at that time? Cletidus Hunt perhaps. TT was totally blindsided by that situation

Jenkins has been nicked up a lot, but in the previous four years he played in 62 of a possibly 64 games. He missed two games in four years. Big flag there, too, huh?

Now for Harrell. Since when is Harrell lazy? Injury-prone perhaps, weight issues perhaps, a little naive perhaps, but nothing indicates he is truly lazy. After his surgery he lost all the weight they wanted him to and even more doing only very light intensity workouts because of his back, but by spending much more time at it then the staff expected him to. That doesn't sound lazy to me. They should have known he "might spend the off season eating himself into a frenzy"? Why? Based on what? and for the "off season"? He was gone 6 or 7 weeks and was back in GB by March 16 for VOLUNTARY workouts. That doesn't sound lazy to me, or even much of an eating frenzy. Lazy would apply to the players in the past who skipped voluntary stuff completely and then reported to camp out of shape. Harrell was in GB in mid-March to get in shape for August.

How much weight did he really gain? One article said 10 lbs. For a 325 pounder that is not much, and is something a lot of the really big guys struggle with, especially when they are young and naive. Had he not gotten hurt, we likely would not have even heard about it, and I don't believe the few extra pounds cause the injury.

I will not argue that Harrell was a good pick. He may not have been. My point on that is simple. When you make a decision like drafting Harrell, it is plain ignorant not to give it an opportunity to be successful. To draft him that high, but not give him the chance to prove he is worth it guarantees failure. Besides, Harrell actually had some decent flashes at the end of 2007 when you consider that he had no off-season work and was restricted in TC, then lost practice time during the season. There was reason to hope that with a full off season of work and a training camp that he could start to show his value.

To evaluate culpability for the D-line decline you have to consider the time line. What happened when and what could have been done about it at that time. I maintain there was not a lot TT could have been expected to do for the D-line going in to 2008. Now it is a completely different story. They will end the season and go into the off-season with very apparent issues that need to be addressed.

[Gunakor]

Wow. Just... Wow.

Well done Patler. Very nicely broken down, and explained in a way that even the harshest critics should at least take a step back and think about it. Very well done indeed.

[cpk1994]

Re: TT

Your argument is based on a lot of inaccuracies and hindsight.

The Packers allowed the Giants 130 yards rushing on 37 carries, 3.5/carry to two guys that collectively averaged 5.3/carry during the regular season. Ya, that was a huge indicator to TT of run defense problems wasn't it? The bigger problems in that game were that Plaxico Burress had more yards receiving than the entire rushing output of the Giants, Harris couldn't stop him; and the Packers offense gained less than 100 yards and ran just 22 plays in 5 possessions in the second half.

Corey Williams was traded February 29. The D-line was healthy then, Harrell was home eating and uninjured, KGB was working out to strengthen his ankle, with no concerns about his knee yet. Jenkins was healing or healed. No one was scheduled for surgeries, repair or anything significant at that time.

Jolly was arrested in mid-July, just a couple weeks before training camp started. Not much TT could do then but hope for the best with Jolly. Who was available at that time? Cletidus Hunt perhaps. TT was totally blindsided by that situation

Jenkins has been nicked up a lot, but in the previous four years he played in 62 of a possibly 64 games. He missed two games in four years. Big flag there, too, huh?

Now for Harrell. Since when is Harrell lazy? Injury-prone perhaps, weight issues perhaps, a little naive perhaps, but nothing indicates he is truly lazy. After his surgery he lost all the weight they wanted him to and even more doing only very light intensity workouts because of his back, but by spending much more time at it then the staff expected him to. That doesn't sound lazy to me. They should have known he "might spend the off season eating himself into a frenzy"? Why? Based on what? and for the "off season"? He was gone 6 or 7 weeks and was back in GB by March 16 for VOLUNTARY workouts. That doesn't sound lazy to me, or even much of an eating frenzy. Lazy would apply to the players in the past who skipped voluntary stuff completely and then reported to camp out of shape. Harrell was in GB in mid-March to get in shape for August.

How much weight did he really gain? One article said 10 lbs. For a 325 pounder that is not much, and is something a lot of the really big guys struggle with, especially when they are young and naive. Had he not gotten hurt, we likely would not have even heard about it, and I don't believe the few extra pounds cause the injury.

I will not argue that Harrell was a good pick. He may not have been. My point on that is simple. When you make a decision like drafting Harrell, it is plain ignorant not to give it an opportunity to be successful. To draft him that high, but not give him the chance to prove he is worth it guarantees failure. Besides, Harrell actually had some decent flashes at the end of 2007 when you consider that he had no off-season work and was restricted in TC, then lost practice time during the season. There was reason to hope that with a full off season of work and a training camp that he could start to show his value.

To evaluate culpability for the D-line decline you have to consider the time line. What happened when and what could have been done about it at that time. I maintain there was not a lot TT could have been expected to do for the D-line going in to 2008. Now it is a completely different story. They will end the season and go into the off-season with very apparent issues that need to be addressed.

Wow. Palterizing one person at a time not challenging enough so now you are doing it to the whole forum at once?

[sharpe1027]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

To summarize, the line changed little from '07 to '08, and I can understand why TT thought it would be no worse than last year, and maybe even better with no change from Pickett, Kampman, KGB and Cole; and some marginal improvements (or more) from Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell and one or two younger guys.

Going into 2009 he has to re-evaluate much of that. Will Harrell ever produce? Will Pickett and Jolly be like 2007 or 2008? Can Thompson really replace KGB starting NOW? Should Cole be signed? Can Jenkins give a full-season performance? How many new players are needed? He has to find the answers or at least work toward finding them. If he stands pat, he has to be right in his evaluation that '08 was an aberration.

I can understand that as well. However, to turn this analysis of its head, you could look at each those points are miscalculations that together add up the current problems. Every GM had a rationale for why they did what they did. I bet you could come back with a similar argument for the current state of the Lions... :P

I understand why TT did what he did, and I agreed at the time (something most TT critics won't admit), but looking back there is a decent argument that he made a series of miscalculations. So, you could either subscribe to the theory that his evaluations and decisions are fine and it was just a perfect storm of unfortunate events, or he that made a series of mistakes.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

[Patler]

Re: D-line performance, not TT's fault THIS year

To summarize, the line changed little from '07 to '08, and I can understand why TT thought it would be no worse than last year, and maybe even better with no change from Pickett, Kampman, KGB and Cole; and some marginal improvements (or more) from Jolly, Jenkins, Harrell and one or two younger guys.

Going into 2009 he has to re-evaluate much of that. Will Harrell ever produce? Will Pickett and Jolly be like 2007 or 2008? Can Thompson really replace KGB starting NOW? Should Cole be signed? Can Jenkins give a full-season performance? How many new players are needed? He has to find the answers or at least work toward finding them. If he stands pat, he has to be right in his evaluation that '08 was an aberration.

I can understand that as well. However, to turn this analysis of its head, you could look at each those points are miscalculations that together add up the current problems. Every GM had a rationale for why they did what they did. I bet you could come back with a similar argument for the current state of the Lions... :P

I understand why TT did what he did, and I agreed at the time (something most TT critics won't admit), but looking back there is a decent argument that he made a series of miscalculations. So, you could either subscribe to the theory that his evaluations and decisions are fine and it was just a perfect storm of unfortunate events, or he that made a series of mistakes.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

I do agree with that, but I would argue all of his miscalculations have centered around Harrell. KGB pulling a disappearing act during an off season (after all, he had a sack against the Giants, didn't he?), Jolly's problem so close to camp, Jenkins being lost for most of the season, Pickett having an off year were hardly things to be expected. I see no miscalculation relating to those. The miscalculation with Harrell was made in 2007. Once that was done, he did not make another mistake in 2008, but he suffered from the one in 2007.

I wasn't excited about the trade of Williams, but at the time it was made I don't think it was a miscalculation. I argued in here that Williams had more sacks in 2006-07 than any other DT in the NFL, not because he was a great pass rusher, but because the totality of the D-line, with Kampman, Jenkins, KGB, and Williams in pass rush situations, and Pickett and Cole for standard downs and distances was somehow better than the sum of its parts. It just worked. None are great pass rushers, but Kampman, KGB, Jenkins and Williams were all good ones, and consistent enough that two or more would generate pressure resulting in a sack as the QB moved from one into the grasp of another. They ended up losing 3/4 of their preferred pass rush line.

Had Harrell not been healthy in February, or if Jolly had already been arrested, TT may not have traded Williams. But in Feb., they seemed to have an extra DT. As it was, many questioned why he had kept so many D-linemen in 2007, and many argued that he should trade one then. Some thought he kept them all to trade one before the deadline. Then in the off season he he traded just one, and people question why he didn't bring in a whole bunch more. He gave up one player from a group seemingly having an excess, and it snowballed into a deficit. I just don't see a lot of mistakes surrounding the D-line in the 2008 off season. Just a lot of bad luck and unexpected happenings with the D-line.

2009 is a whole different situation.