Packers watching orakpo closely

[Tarlam!]

Do you guys think that Partial is actually serious?

Yes. I've hung out with Partial and I know he is a very passionate GBP fan that takes a position and defends it vigorously. It's nearly impossible to budge him, once he's made his mind up about something, even if logic or facts tell a different story. His last position on Williams has somewhat been put into perspective and is now less extreme.

He is quite young compared to say, KY or OPF. He isn't the type to shy away from a controversy and is self confident enough in (verbal) conflict situations to stand his ground.

Frankly, Partial and I had a good time together and at the first Packer Rats Game Day, he contributed to the great time that was had by all.

I appreciate Partial's PR contributions, even though I rarely share his opinions completely. Yet, he forces me to think "outside of the box", which is a good thing.

[Bretsky]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.
He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

[Lurker64]

When did I call him fat or worthless? Don't put words in my mouth. I said he's lazy and doesn't show the desire to live up to the contract he was signed to. If you don't agree with me, look at what Browns fans have to say about him. Look at what Packers fans have to say about him after being named a starter. I am certainly not the only one who shares this view.

The thing is though, that there are almost no players who are quite as bad as fans think they are if they aren't particularly good players, and there are almost no players who are quite as good as fans think they are if they are good players. Fans are almost always wrong about this sort of thing.

You come off a bad year, and you're garbage. You come off a good year and you're a hall of famer. You see it in every fan community, including this one.

I do not personally think that Williams is quite as bad a player as Browns fans appear to think he is (though I definitely agree with you, in that Browns fans think he's terrible and would like their second round pick back), as there are a few mitigating circumstances:
a) Williams was playing with a separated shoulder last year, which limited his effectiveness.
b) Williams is playing in a scheme that he is not suited for.

But it's a bad idea to look at what fans say and take that as the truth. When the Browns traded for Williams they thought he was "a starter and a pro bowler" when in fact he is neither. Currently, they think he is lazy, useless, and a bad player when he may not be any of those things. I think we can all agree that Williams's contract is too fat for what he was accomplishing in Green Bay, let alone what he has accomplished in Cleveland. Whether or not he's a good player, bad player, injured, healthy, in a good scheme, in a bad scheme... who knows. But he is currently set to be overpaid as a function of his productivity and position.

I think we can also all agree that, since Williams was unwilling to negotiate a contract with Green Bay before hitting free agency, getting a 2nd round pick out of a player who were were either going to have to overpay (like Cleveland did) or let walk was a good move on the part of our General Manager; even though we may not like how that pick was spent.

[Patler]

I do not understand why some are so fascinated by, impressed with or put so much emphasis on who was on the field at DT for the Packers on the first defensive play. With as much as they rotated DTs what did it matter who started?

Williams wasn't a "starter"? - He started 20 of 32 games in '06 & '07.

Jolly "beat him out"? Not really. Jolly may have been the guy who played 1st down in the first series, but when Jolly was lost for the season, an article showed that when both were available in '07, Williams played a lot more snaps per game than Jolly did. Jolly started. Williams played more. Does it really matter who played on the 1st snap?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.

He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

I'm not going to bag on him. He was a helpful member of the rotation and he was better than Cole and Montgomery. Two issues (with your take and Patler's take):

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.
2) I'm not sure he was good enough that he helped other players that much. For Jenkins, it's all about his health. He didn't have Williams early last year, and he played at Pro Bowl level before getting injured yet again. So, Jenkins appeared to be better without Williams.

[Zool]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.

Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=5704&sYear=2007

[texaspackerbacker]

The problem with too many around here is it's all or nothing.

Sure, Williams was a "good player". He just was not worth the money it would have taken to re-sign him. The "all" position--that he was worth the money is simply wrong; The "nothing" position--that he is total crap--is also just wrong.

Bottom line is that the trade Thompson made seemed like a good deal when it was made; It seemed like a better deal when Williams bombed in Cleveland; And hindsight about the series of injuries where Williams would have gotten more playing time in Green Bay doesn't diminish that; And the selection of Brohm with the pick--whether it turns out good or bad in the long run--is totally irrelevant to whether the trade was a good deal.

[Patler]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.

Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...704&sYear=2007

You could argue that he "finished" better than the others

But, it is a legitimate question, best answered by looking at "pressures/snap". That looks at the total of sacks, knockdowns and hurries.

In 2006, Williams had 1 pressure for every 28.5 snaps. The leader was Jenkins at 1/15.5. Kampman was next at 1/17.7; Montgomery 1/19.7 and KGB 1/20.8. Following Williams' 1/28.5 was Pickett at 1/86 and Cole 1/89.3

2007 - KGB 1/13.2; Kampman 1/17.2; Jenkins 1/30, Williams 1/37; Jolly 1/66.8; Montgomery 1/105; Cole 1/130.

Did Williams provide pressure like the DEs? No, but would you have expected him to? It is apparent though that after Williams the pass rush ability of the others dropped significantly.

BTW - in response to Tex, I think Williams was a good player, brought value to the team. I also think, and stated, that Williams contract escalated beyond his value and the trade was the right thing to do. I think quite a few others have said as much, including Partial, who has at least waivered in whether or not Williams should have been kept at the price.

[Partial]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.

Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...704&sYear=2007

Probably. That happens with most players when they're not fresh. Unless you're a superb performer, you're going to have a rough time when you're playing just about every snap. Note that Kampman has worn down at the end of seasons for three years straight now, and wasn't very effective at all this season at getting to the passer.

The guys that have the skills to get after the passer and play every down get paid the big bucks, like Peppers or Super Mario, or Tommie Harris(who has a significant injury history, but finding the consistent ability to get after the passer is worth the 10-12 mil he's going to get paid BEFORE he hits the open market)

[Partial]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.
He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

Right, I tend to agree with this. His worth is determined by the market, not by us fans.

Also, I believe that Jolly started because he was the bigger and better run defender, and not nearly as good at rushing the passer.

Once the injuries started hitting the line and everyone was playing more

[3irty1]

My problem is too many people agree with me.

I've always held the opinion that Williams was crap, basically a 300lb KGB, good as a situational rusher and that's it. And was a black sheep for a long time for my view. When Jolly beat him out it was a sign that MM agreed with me too. Since then virtually everybody has come around.

Starters money for him is a joke.

Would you give Rodgers a 5 yr 150M contract?

That is akin to giving Williams 6.5M/yr.

He might be better than we have now, but you still don't give a guy worth 2-3M/yr two to three times as much just to stick around.

Williams was still a wonderful part to that group; what he added made Jenkins more effecive and vise versa. Was he a starter ? No. But he was much better than a reserve as well. He just found a sucker to pay him like a legit starter. As for Jolly, I'm not convinced his beating out Williams, so to speak...has shown me anything that leaves hope for calling Jolly a legitimate starter as well. They were all a good rotation. Colin Cole got 4 MIL per year. In today's market Williams is not a 2-3 million dollar player.
He's not worth 6 MIL either but IMO well over the 2-3 range. As I noted, I'm glad he went elsewhere. Never too fond of the Brohm pick though.
The homers IMO bag on him too much because TT chose to let him fly. Seeing Jolly play more has not convinced me he's any better, and CW definitely added more that guys like Cole and Montgomery.

Right, I tend to agree with this. His worth is determined by the market, not by us fans.

Also, I believe that Jolly started because he was the bigger and better run defender, and not nearly as good at rushing the passer.

Once the injuries started hitting the line and everyone was playing more

Ditto.

That said I think Jolly is the better player overall. He holds his ground better against the run and although he's not as slippery inside he gets a good enough push to complicate things and has a knack for getting his hands up and batting shit down.

Hopefully a healthier Cullen Jenkins in 2009 will make us forget about what CW did as a Packer.

[Zool]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.

Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...704&sYear=2007

Probably. That happens with most players when they're not fresh. Unless you're a superb performer, you're going to have a rough time when you're playing just about every snap. Note that Kampman has worn down at the end of seasons for three years straight now, and wasn't very effective at all this season at getting to the passer.

The guys that have the skills to get after the passer and play every down get paid the big bucks, like Peppers or Super Mario, or Tommie Harris(who has a significant injury history, but finding the consistent ability to get after the passer is worth the 10-12 mil he's going to get paid BEFORE he hits the open market)

My point is that he's being paid big dollars to be very average now. He's a really good guy to have in a rotation at the right price but at his current cost, its not a good investment.

[Bretsky]

1) His sacks compared to the number of QB pressures he provided was extremely high. If you judge him by his sack totals, you overrate him immensely. He was a solid rotation player.

Exactly. Its like a guy in baseball who for a 1-2 year span has a crazy high BA for balls in play. Meaning that an extremely high number of balls he makes contact with land in play. History has shown that number will eventually come back to earth and show how average the guy really is. Williams was an average player with really good stats for a couple years. Obviously with all the injuries last year he would have been good to have around, but the odds are his sack totals would have been pedestrian much like the second half of the '07 season when he was thrust into the starting position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...704&sYear=2007

Probably. That happens with most players when they're not fresh. Unless you're a superb performer, you're going to have a rough time when you're playing just about every snap. Note that Kampman has worn down at the end of seasons for three years straight now, and wasn't very effective at all this season at getting to the passer.

The guys that have the skills to get after the passer and play every down get paid the big bucks, like Peppers or Super Mario, or Tommie Harris(who has a significant injury history, but finding the consistent ability to get after the passer is worth the 10-12 mil he's going to get paid BEFORE he hits the open market)

My point is that he's being paid big dollars to be very average now. He's a really good guy to have in a rotation at the right price but at his current cost, its not a good investment.

Colin Cole is getting paid over 4MIL per year; I think CW contract over the years was 6.5MIL per year. I wonder what his real value is in todays' market ?

Before this year I'd have said 4 MIL but now I'm not sure anymore.

[Partial]

6.5 isn't bad considering he's leaps and bounds better than Cole all around, and very solid as a pass rusher. Both are overpaid, but relative to Cole, Williams is a pretty good deal imo.

[Joemailman]

So....what are the chances that Brian Orakpo will be available when the Packers pick?