LeRoy Butler says

[bobblehead]

One of the big things I liked about MM and TT in the beginning was the declaration that they didn't care where you were drafted or what you were paid, the best player would get the job. Several years later I am disappointed as they must have meant: I don't care where Sherman drafted you or pays you, but if you are my guy then you will be handed the job.

Last year Chillar was by far the best LB on the team but almost never started. It sounds like he is lights out so far this year, and if it continues and he doesn't start I will begin to join those who question the current regime. Same with BJack last year as he was clearly superior to Grant early on, but we paid grant so..........

Where do you guys get this stuff. He can blitz, he can cover. Vs. the run, he is the least stout and worst linebacker on the roster, by a decent margin. Barnett, Hawk, Pops, Bishop, and Lansanah were all better run stopping backers. Chillar doesn't have very good feel for run plays and overpursues, and is easily blocked out of a play. He absolutely blows at controlling a gap. There is a reason that the basement dweller Rams had no interest in resigning him. Being good in coverage does not a good linebacker make. That's what DB's are for.

Chillar is basically a SS.

Whereas I respect your knowledge Waldo I firmly disagree. I would say the PACKAGE of Chillar was far better than anyone on the field last year. I agree Popps is far better v. the run than chillar or anyone else in our LB crew. Hawk overpursued everyone last year and wasn't very good. Chillar was very average against the run, but when coupled with doing EVERYTHING else better than the other guys he was the best LB. Bishop, fuck he got burned by chester taylor by standing still in coverage and blew the gap on Petersons long TD run. He was abysmal other than being a big hitter (when he connected). Hawk sucked all of last year in pass and run. I hope he was hurt, cuz if that was the product I want a refund. Barnett missed half the season, so I wasn't counting him amongst the best LB's on the roster. Lansanah is a practice squad guy....hardly comparable to chillar. The fact that you even made the comparison weakens your argument.

Those same rams didn't resign Pickett....any theories on that??

edit: PS....I never said Chillar was a stud NFL starter, I said he was the best on the team....Our LB's flat out stunk up the joint last year.

[Waldo]

Mmm....k, believe what you want. No coach has ever disagreed with me with their actions. Chillar is the only LB on the roster that appears pigeonholed at one spot. He is in the spot that see the least amount of lead blocking and does the most covering.

If Chillar was in fact more stout agaisnt the run than Hawk, Capers would switch their positions. Fact is Chillar isn't even #2 on the Buck depth chart. Does Dom not see our best LB either? Surely he would have made the preliminary depth chart off of tape, seeing as though he had to fit guys into different roles than they had previously done.

The guy is a glorified SS. Our run D always suffered with him in the game, and took a major blow when he moved to WLB, where the guy had no business playing, as teams could slice through us by cutback running.

Hawk is a habitual underpursuer, big time, I'm not sure how anybody has ever seen overpursuit.

Chillar and Pickett were very different. Chillar wasn't considered a first round bust.

[MichiganPackerFan]

It's not that Thompson wouldn't play Sherman's players: Sherman's acquisitions and draft picks largely sucked big hairy balls so Ted Thompson had to cut Sherman's players or risk the team becoming the Lions by lacking personnel that resembled professional caliber players.

[sharpe1027]

I would say you misread my post. I would also say you have a preconceived notion about me and my objectivity. I'm a huge TT and MM fan in the way they go about business.

1) Never said he was. But he wasn't a TT pick either. He came in as a role player to cover non blocking TE's that Popp couldn't handle. As I said above he outplayed Hawk badly and should have been starting instead of Hawk.
2) Popp is a TT pick and his deal was worth far more overall than Chillars. You are comparing base salaries I believe.
3) I'm hung up on the fact that Chillar was the BEST LB we had last year and didn't play enough. He got on the field later when too many injuriees and bad play mounted. I also pointed out the BJack vs. Grant situation, the guy who got paid got the carries even when BJack was outplaying him badly.
4) If you think MM doesn't care about TT's guys you dont' understand the relationship of a hand picked coach and his GM. They discuss most everything from draft picks to player cuts.

I'm not sure what axe you think I have to grind. I've been a huge supporter of TT and MM going back thousands of posts. I criticize when I think its correct and I back them when I think they are right. I don't know what you mean by me seeing conspiracies and questioning my objectivity. Hell, I'm not even sure why you chose to make this a personal dig....If that doesn't make you sit back and reflect on your self esteem..........

Axe to grind? Maybe not then, but making statements about the inner workings of their minds? Really? I mean it couldn't be that they truly thought those players were better.... To accept your argument I basically have to believe that not only are you a better talent evaluator than them, but also you are a trained physchologist.

Oh wait, Chillar isn't a Sherman pick? I guess there is some distinction between a draft pick and a free agent signing? Why the hell are Pickett and Woodson playing, shouldn't they be benched as well?

Poppinga's paid much than Chillar? Really? I don't think so....

Discussing draft picks and cuts, yes. Setting the starting lineup no.

Look, I may have jumped the gun on calling you out, but your argument was so full of holes that I admit that it annoyed me. I said "Perhaps you have an axe to grind". If not, fine.

IMO, Chillar only stood out because you could see him making plays in the passing game. That's about it though. I doubt you can find much support for your belief that he was the best LB on the team. I just don't see it.[/b]

[Patler]

Reports I've read say Hawk looks outstanding. ...... Funny how different reporters can see different things.

Yesterday Bedard wrote in his position by position evaluation of the first three practices:

Down
A.J. Hawk: After a promising first day of practice, Hawk appeared to regress into his tentative form from last season. That can’t happen again.

This followed his live blog comment during practice:

Hawk looks lost in this practice. Like last year

So which is it? Is Hawk outstanding as Harvey has read in reports, or is he tentative and lost as Bedard has written? How are we supposed to know?

Someone somewhere should start a website rating reporters, analyzing how good they are at their jobs. Two reporters watching the same practices see Hawk's performance at polar opposites. Only one can be accurate. Which is it?

[Waldo]

Here's what the GBPG had to say after yesterday's practice:

Defensive standout of the day: Hawk, who was a difference-maker in the running game. Most notable, he shed Finley to stuff RB Ryan Grant for a loss in team run; absolutely blew up a power run to Grant in red zone; and got outside to stop RB Kregg Lumpkin for a loss on a toss left.

Patler, one thing, it has been noted that AJ had good days on Sat and Mon, but Sun was an overall mediocre day. Both of your Bedard quotes came from Sun.

Lots of praise for AJ yesterday.

[Bossman641]

Here's what the GBPG had to say after yesterday's practice:

Defensive standout of the day: Hawk, who was a difference-maker in the running game. Most notable, he shed Finley to stuff RB Ryan Grant for a loss in team run; absolutely blew up a power run to Grant in red zone; and got outside to stop RB Kregg Lumpkin for a loss on a toss left.

Patler, one thing, it has been noted that AJ had good days on Sat and Mon, but Sun was an overall mediocre day. Both of your Bedard quotes came from Sun.

Lots of praise for AJ yesterday.

That's what I was thinking as well. AJ "seemed" to have a bad day Sunday. I say seemed because all I can base that off is what I read in the articles and blogs. He was much better yesterday..again from what I have read.

[Patler]

Here's what the GBPG had to say after yesterday's practice:

Defensive standout of the day: Hawk, who was a difference-maker in the running game. Most notable, he shed Finley to stuff RB Ryan Grant for a loss in team run; absolutely blew up a power run to Grant in red zone; and got outside to stop RB Kregg Lumpkin for a loss on a toss left.

Patler, one thing, it has been noted that AJ had good days on Sat and Mon, but Sun was an overall mediocre day. Both of your Bedard quotes came from Sun.

Lots of praise for AJ yesterday.

Very true, but I suspect Harvey has read more than just that to conclude that "Hawk looks outstanding." I know Harvey to be a pretty thorough guy, and I doubt his opinion was based on a single comment focusing on a couple plays in one practice.

Players have good days and bad days. They also have good series and bad series within a practice, and even good plays and bad plays within a series. My pet peeve with the style of reporting popular today is that they often focus minutia, without seeing the big picture. To me, live blogs from a practice may be entertaining to some extent, but they are fairly useless, especially this early in camp. The reflective comments after a practice are only minimally more valuable. Articles looking back at a week, two weeks, etc. start to give the picture of what specific players do.

I would still like to see an objective analysis of the Packer reporters, which ones really know what they are talking about and which ones don't. I have only gut reactions, because I've never really gone back to read articles from a "was he right or was he wrong" angle.

[Patler]

Patler, one thing, it has been noted that AJ had good days on Sat and Mon, but Sun was an overall mediocre day. Both of your Bedard quotes came from Sun.

Lots of praise for AJ yesterday.

I'm not arguing Waldo, but just for the heck of it I went back through yesterdays blog on JSO to see what they said about Hawk on a live basis. They seem to be the most critical of him so far. This was their only live blog comment yesterday that I could find:

Preston lg. Hawk promptly drops grant

I wonder if all of his "big plays" were against Preston and Finley, a backup guard and a TE not really known for his blocking (or anything else for that matter, other than maybe "potential")?

I wonder if there is a job opportunity reporting on the reporters, evaluating the evaluators, commenting on the commentators? What do you think?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bedard has been the most critical of Kampman throughout the summer. I suspect it has to do with him saying that he serious doubts about whether Kampman can make the switch. Bedard seems to be one that sees what he wants to see.

[Patler]

Bedard has been the most critical of Kampman throughout the summer. I suspect it has to do with him saying that he serious doubts about whether Kampman can make the switch. Bedard seems to be one that sees what he wants to see.

I tend to agree about Bedard. When Bedard first came my initial reaction was negative, but he kind of grew on my, and I thought he might be OK. But toward the end of last season and especially now this off season my gut reaction has reverted to negative. For some reason I find myself not considering his opinions and comments very highly.

He seems to comment on only the negative side of some issues (too many).

[rbaloha1]

Plain and simple -- Bishop makes impact plays period. The 2 plays the Hawk apologists mention against Bishop are correctable .

The position Hawk plays in the 3-4 requires the lb to take on a blocker -- not a Hawk strength. Bishop has the physicality to take on the blocker -- Hawk is a run around type player that needs open space and a running start to make plays.

In a skills competition Hawk beats Bishop hands down. In terms of making impact plays and making plays Bishop is the guy.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We'll see if the coaches agree with you. I'll bump this thread when the starting lineup is announced.

[Packnut]

Camp

Pre-season games give a much more accurate reading of how a player is doing.

These reports from camp are to subjective based on what someone believes they see. Nothing worth getting worked up over.

Waldo is correst in his evaluation of Chillar vs the run last season. Almost as bad as Poppinga. Only difference is Chillar never gets there and when Brady does, he usually whiffs at the tackle..........

[Waldo]

Re: Camp

Pre-season games give a much more accurate reading of how a player is doing.

These reports from camp are to subjective based on what someone believes they see. Nothing worth getting worked up over.

Waldo is correst in his evaluation of Chillar vs the run last season. Almost as bad as Poppinga. Only difference is Chillar never gets there and when Brady does, he usually whiffs at the tackle..........

Brady can control a gap though. His "whiff's" come when he peels out of his gap into another. If his task was to shut down a single gap and nothing more, he absolutely excels at it. Go look at FO's stats for defense running through gaps. GB was ranked 25th or worse through every gap in the defensive front. Except between the LT and the LG. The gap that Brady spent the most time in. GB ranked 6th in the NFL at controlling that gap.